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Just


Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Points: 172

"Made in China" --A Rant.
Original Message   May 6, 2011 8:37 am
A few weeks ago I stopped at our local Kirby dealer to pick up some bags for my Ultimate G.  After paying the $28.49 for 9 Micro-Magic bags I noticed that the bottom of the package read "Made in China from American made materials".  WTH.

When I got home I looked at the old package and it clearly says "Made in the U.S.A"

How could this have happened?  My American designed machine is a "globally sourced" machine, and the bags are "Made in China"

I called back to the dealer and advised that I would have given another $2-$3 for the bags if they were American, an was told that Kirby sold their equipment and all the bags are now "global".  Mr. Buffett, is this how you re-energize America, by sending the business and jobs to China.

--Rant over, you may discuss.

Replies: 1 - 16 of 16View as Outline
vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #1   May 6, 2011 5:13 pm
Id rather not discuss. If the state of affairs these days is to rubbish everything China makes by American citizens, then it is a very sad affair and one that smacks of hypocrits. I've said it now and I've said it before - the PC you use everyday and the technology you depend on has probably been made in Asia, regardless of China, India or anywhere else. End of the day, cheap factories are where Asia has held it's foot in and the U.S and the U.K are quite happy to exploit the bases for factory set ups when they are far more expensive to do on home turf, as well as higher overheads and outsourcing departments. Brands are just being cost effective, whether over charging the consumer or lending value for money is totally up to them and has very little to do with how much the actual cost of the product is before it leaves the factory in China.
mole


.

Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 782

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #2   May 7, 2011 8:44 am
Hi Just.

This has been going on since the 2002/03.

And Kirby is not the only one......

Regards

MOLE

Just


Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Points: 172

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #3   May 10, 2011 8:58 am
vacmanuk wrote:
Id rather not discuss. If the state of affairs these days is to rubbish everything China makes by American citizens, then it is a very sad affair and one that smacks of hypocrits.

I am sorry Vacmanuk,

I did not mean to sound like a hypocrit, cause I'm not.    I'm not even saying the bags I purchased are not the same quality as the ones previous.  What I, as an American, am saying is when we have one of the richest men in the country, maybe the world telling us how to get back on track, and then send the business from his companies to another country; i feel he is looking after only the bucks in his pocket and not the country he keeps trying to give advice to.

Not only is most of the crap we get from China just that CRAP, but it is produced cheaper because they employ in many cases forced labor, and child labor.  And they turn their profits for their companies on the backs of their workers.  Children that work an 18 hour day and as a reward gets to choose two carrots from the pile as they go home.  Now you can praise this if you like, fill your home with Haeier appliances, and bow to your neighbor because we are being sold out.

Kirby is on a slippery slope, First it's the bags, then the motor, and the next thing you know TTI tell Berkshire they can produce the Kirby cheaper in China and that's all she wrote.

vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #4   May 10, 2011 2:00 pm
Just wrote:
I am sorry Vacmanuk,

I did not mean to sound like a hypocrit, cause I'm not.    I'm not even saying the bags I purchased are not the same quality as the ones previous.  What I, as an American, am saying is when we have one of the richest men in the country, maybe the world telling us how to get back on track, and then send the business from his companies to another country; i feel he is looking after only the bucks in his pocket and not the country he keeps trying to give advice to.

Not only is most of the crap we get from China just that CRAP, but it is produced cheaper because they employ in many cases forced labor, and child labor.  And they turn their profits for their companies on the backs of their workers.  Children that work an 18 hour day and as a reward gets to choose two carrots from the pile as they go home.  Now you can praise this if you like, fill your home with Haeier appliances, and bow to your neighbor because we are being sold out.

Kirby is on a slippery slope, First it's the bags, then the motor, and the next thing you know TTI tell Berkshire they can produce the Kirby cheaper in China and that's all she wrote.


Yes, but you forget China is part of Asia, Asia is not a western continent - therefore cheap labour/slave labour is something these countries have endured. Same applies to the fact that most women stay at home. men go out to work. Western companies have set up in ASIA because of it, even if they are against cheap labour, the cost of selling/purchasing & importing is cheaper "in roads" than manufacturing on home turf. Regardless of what "westerners think," the Asian workforce may be forced to work under what we class as "poor" conditions - but on the other side of the coin, Asians are hard workers, proved to be better engineers and in skilled areas of work. They also have a huge support for family; very few divorces and health wise very few heart/obesity and cancer problems. Major health problems that both blight the UK and the US.

Also I wouldn't say everything in China is crap - a lot of the Apple hardware is made in China and I'm all for it - I adore Apple products - and it took me a long while to see that Apple were better than a PC in so many respects.
This message was modified May 10, 2011 by vacmanuk
Just


Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Points: 172

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #5   May 10, 2011 4:21 pm
Sorry Vacmanuk,

I was only meaning to make a statement, not get into a debate.  However, if one will take the time to look in the English Dictionary they will see that Most, and Everything do not mean the same.   If one is trying to twist another's words to make their point.  Not playing nice.

M00seUK


Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Points: 295

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #6   May 10, 2011 6:28 pm
Just wrote:
Sorry Vacmanuk,

I was only meaning to make a statement, not get into a debate.  However, if one will take the time to look in the English Dictionary they will see that Most, and Everything do not mean the same.   If one is trying to twist another's words to make their point.  Not playing nice.


With the greatest respect, if you want to make a statement, print it on a t-shirt.

If you post it to a on-line discussion forum, it's up for discussion.
Just


Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Points: 172

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #7   May 11, 2011 8:55 am
Sorry Moose

I wrote a long response, but felt it wasn't worth it. 

Having T-shirts printed today.

"Take care of your own first."  "Keep jobs and factories in the U.S." 

I Will send you one as soon as I can find a textile and screen printer in this country.

HARDSELL


Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #8   May 11, 2011 3:21 pm
Just wrote:
Sorry Moose

I wrote a long response, but felt it wasn't worth it. 

Having T-shirts printed today.

"Take care of your own first."  "Keep jobs and factories in the U.S." 

I Will send you one as soon as I can find a textile and screen printer in this country.


The shirt will likely be made in Taiwan.

It is sad that a great country as the USA has given way to the greedy corporate whores in the USA.  Those living in lesser capable countries are less concerned since they are already lower down the chain.
vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #9   May 11, 2011 8:10 pm
HARDSELL wrote:
The shirt will likely be made in Taiwan.

It is sad that a great country as the USA has given way to the greedy corporate whores in the USA.  Those living in lesser capable countries are less concerned since they are already lower down the chain.

Here, try this: http://www.usstuff.com/shirttee.htm

Apparently it's all American made.
Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #10   Jun 7, 2011 11:41 am
Make it in Europe and a vacuum costs a small fortune.  (Quality comes at a high price you know.)  Make it in China and the price is more attractive and no matter what it is an attractive price will usually win out.

After several grueling weeks of doing vacuum demos at a major retailer I have learned that the whole thing is about the buyers.  Everybody wants a wonderful machince BUT they do not want ot pay the price for "wonderful."  What I've seen are everyday day people hitting the vacuum aisle and -- seeing all vacuums as equal in their minds -- they head for the cheapest priced models they see.  I seldom matters how much efficiency, durability, convenience or length of warranty are stressed many shoppers remain unconvinced about buying.

It would be snotty of me to dismiss the like as bearers of poor man's mentality and possibly wrong becuase these are teh same people who'll go whole hog for screen TV.  Thus, I can only assume that vacuums are considered as less necessary.

Nonetheless, I maintain that the "China thing" is a problem that we, collectively speaking, made.    Also this problem did not start with China.  Since the 1960s when manufactures began seeing the saving in availing themselves of cheap labor in other parts of the world and that non-thinking consumers would say yes to buying.

Riccar/Simplicity, Aerus and Oreck I believe are the last holdouts save for certain vacuumsand  items that we may consider American-made but their prices are formidable.  Nevertheless, there must be a push by shoppers that insists upon affordable nationally-made product.  I lay no blame on the manufacturers or China -- just us.  If you're either striving to hold onto your money or keep your virture -- keep your legs crossed and slap the hand on your knee.

Venson

vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #11   Jun 8, 2011 11:35 am
Venson wrote:
Make it in Europe and a vacuum costs a small fortune.  (Quality comes at a high price you know.)  Make it in China and the price is more attractive and no matter what it is an attractive price will usually win out.

After several grueling weeks of doing vacuum demos at a major retailer I have learned that the whole thing is about the buyers.  Everybody wants a wonderful machince BUT they do not want ot pay the price for "wonderful."  What I've seen are everyday day people hitting the vacuum aisle and -- seeing all vacuums as equal in their minds -- they head for the cheapest priced models they see.  I seldom matters how much efficiency, durability, convenience or length of warranty are stressed many shoppers remain unconvinced about buying.

It would be snotty of me to dismiss the like as bearers of poor man's mentality and possibly wrong becuase these are teh same people who'll go whole hog for screen TV.  Thus, I can only assume that vacuums are considered as less necessary.

Nonetheless, I maintain that the "China thing" is a problem that we, collectively speaking, made.    Also this problem did not start with China.  Since the 1960s when manufactures began seeing the saving in availing themselves of cheap labor in other parts of the world and that non-thinking consumers would say yes to buying.

Riccar/Simplicity, Aerus and Oreck I believe are the last holdouts save for certain vacuumsand  items that we may consider American-made but their prices are formidable.  Nevertheless, there must be a push by shoppers that insists upon affordable nationally-made product.  I lay no blame on the manufacturers or China -- just us.  If you're either striving to hold onto your money or keep your virture -- keep your legs crossed and slap the hand on your knee.

Venson


Very good point Venson.

Im going to add something which will probably annoy the heck out of Mike, our moderator but frankly I think it is important.  I strongly believe that appliances in terms of their quality and features borders on the same kind of buyer perception when it comes to cars. The U.S went mad for Hyundai's Excel in the mid 1980's featuring loads of kit and good reliability, putting the noses out from the Big Three! In the UK Hyundai didn't do so well with its Pony/same model - UK buyers were already in the throws of value for money (VFM) with Toyota & Nissan - but the UK did buy a lot of Hyundai's bigger model which offered more space, more electrics at the same price as the Pony, therefore qualifying what buyers could be given for a third of the price of mass rivals.

This then followed much later to the preference of audio equipment from Japan (clearly not Chinese/China but Asia still the same) where the build quality, components, sound quality and features were worth paying out for than local or European brands. When it came to large household appliances, a lot of UK buyers found out the hard way by doing with not-so-reliable brands like Hotpoint, Ariston and Hoover - who were producing machines in the UK, yet still leaked, broke down against European brands were offering. Maggie Thatcher taught the UK to stay conservative and to be as patriotic as possible but with it came the downside to most products produced in the UK being ship shoddily made against what other countries in Europe, our PM at the time wasn't happy to import by rising import taxes and restrictions. So whilst America had the wonderful lifestyle products that would make life easier like central vac systems, self driven uprights, the UK got very little of this.
Moderator Mike_W


"There is no BEST or PERFECT vacuum cleaner"

"Take care of your vacuum, then your vacuum will take care of you"


Joined: Dec 1, 2004
Points: 1683

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #12   Jun 8, 2011 2:17 pm
Venson wrote:
Make it in Europe and a vacuum costs a small fortune.  (Quality comes at a high price you know.)  Make it in China and the price is more attractive and no matter what it is an attractive price will usually win out.

After several grueling weeks of doing vacuum demos at a major retailer I have learned that the whole thing is about the buyers.  Everybody wants a wonderful machince BUT they do not want ot pay the price for "wonderful."  What I've seen are everyday day people hitting the vacuum aisle and -- seeing all vacuums as equal in their minds -- they head for the cheapest priced models they see.  I seldom matters how much efficiency, durability, convenience or length of warranty are stressed many shoppers remain unconvinced about buying.

It would be snotty of me to dismiss the like as bearers of poor man's mentality and possibly wrong becuase these are teh same people who'll go whole hog for screen TV.  Thus, I can only assume that vacuums are considered as less necessary.

Nonetheless, I maintain that the "China thing" is a problem that we, collectively speaking, made.    Also this problem did not start with China.  Since the 1960s when manufactures began seeing the saving in availing themselves of cheap labor in other parts of the world and that non-thinking consumers would say yes to buying.

Riccar/Simplicity, Aerus and Oreck I believe are the last holdouts save for certain vacuumsand  items that we may consider American-made but their prices are formidable.  Nevertheless, there must be a push by shoppers that insists upon affordable nationally-made product.  I lay no blame on the manufacturers or China -- just us.  If you're either striving to hold onto your money or keep your virture -- keep your legs crossed and slap the hand on your knee.

Venson


I have been saying similar for years.  Matter of fact, I said it just a while back-

Mike_W wrote:
Saying "I cannot afford it" and "My husband doesn't want to..." do not mean the same thing.  I am never one to push something on someone, which they cannot afford.  There are those who would spend a fortune on a HD TV, clothes, car, etc.  When it comes to vacuum cleaners, it is "We don't need it".  I am one who believes that any vacuum cleaner is better than no vacuum cleaner.  With the OP, not everything was explained.  If the OP would have come back and said, it is not in our budget, that would be fine.  I have used this philosophy since I was a child.  I do not llimit myself and what I get.  I have told some, on this and other forums, to not just jump on the cheapest machine.  If you can, plan and save for it.  Then you will get it.  I am not one who was a stranger to hard times.  But that did not limit what I could get. 

Just because someone does not want to spend alot of money on a vacuum cleaner, does not mean they do not have money.  I have seen for years how people do not care about what vacuum cleaner they use.  "Just give me one that works."  They will also say things like "I'm not paying that much for that."  Years ago, I remember seeing some of those "reality" shows, where they show the family in their home.  It was usually a "McManson" w/fancy furniture and something like a Lexus or BMW in the driveway.  What do you see them using to clean the house.  They are using a $50.00 Bissell.

What is funny is they say nothing when they purchase it, but complain up a storm when it breaks.

Products being made outside of the USA have been going on for a long time.  We had things being made in Japan.  Then it was Malaysia, Singapore and Korea.  Now, it is China.

There are still vacuum cleaners made in the USA.  Go out and purchase the ORECK Ultimale portable vacuum cleaner @$150.00  Tacony make some vacuum cleaners in the USA also. 
This message was modified Jun 8, 2011 by Mike_W
Moderator Mike_W


"There is no BEST or PERFECT vacuum cleaner"

"Take care of your vacuum, then your vacuum will take care of you"


Joined: Dec 1, 2004
Points: 1683

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #13   Jun 8, 2011 2:29 pm
vacmanuk wrote:
Very good point Venson.

Im going to add something which will probably annoy the heck out of Mike, our moderator but frankly I think it is important.  I strongly believe that appliances in terms of their quality and features borders on the same kind of buyer perception when it comes to cars. The U.S went mad for Hyundai's Excel in the mid 1980's featuring loads of kit and good reliability, putting the noses out from the Big Three! In the UK Hyundai didn't do so well with its Pony/same model - UK buyers were already in the throws of value for money (VFM) with Toyota & Nissan - but the UK did buy a lot of Hyundai's bigger model which offered more space, more electrics at the same price as the Pony, therefore qualifying what buyers could be given for a third of the price of mass rivals.

This then followed much later to the preference of audio equipment from Japan (clearly not Chinese/China but Asia still the same) where the build quality, components, sound quality and features were worth paying out for than local or European brands. When it came to large household appliances, a lot of UK buyers found out the hard way by doing with not-so-reliable brands like Hotpoint, Ariston and Hoover - who were producing machines in the UK, yet still leaked, broke down against European brands were offering. Maggie Thatcher taught the UK to stay conservative and to be as patriotic as possible but with it came the downside to most products produced in the UK being ship shoddily made against what other countries in Europe, our PM at the time wasn't happy to import by rising import taxes and restrictions. So whilst America had the wonderful lifestyle products that would make life easier like central vac systems, self driven uprights, the UK got very little of this.
I am not sure what is going to "annoy the heck" out of me.  Is it that you are talking about cars and audio equipment, but not vacuum cleaners?

As for the "Made in China" rant, and keeping it to vacuum cleaners, I will say that it is better to  buy "Made in USA" for us Americans.  There should be no restrictions though.  If you make a bad product, I will go someplace else.  If I cannot afford it, I will go someplace else.  That is my right as a customer.  We did see this w/the auto industry, in the past.

Not all Chinese-made vacuum cleaners are bad.  Some are good-quality.  
This message was modified Jun 8, 2011 by Mike_W
vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #14   Jun 8, 2011 9:10 pm
Mike_W wrote:
I am not sure what is going to "annoy the heck" out of me.  Is it that you are talking about cars and audio equipment, but not vacuum cleaners?

As for the "Made in China" rant, and keeping it to vacuum cleaners, I will say that it is better to  buy "Made in USA" for us Americans.  There should be no restrictions though.  If you make a bad product, I will go someplace else.  If I cannot afford it, I will go someplace else.  That is my right as a customer.  We did see this w/the auto industry, in the past.

Not all Chinese-made vacuum cleaners are bad.  Some are good-quality.  

Well in the past I'm sure you've pointed out that vacuums can't be compared to automobiles...

Of all the models made in America, are the consumables also produced in America too? How far does it go to for American buyers - does everything have to be produced in America for the patriotic card to be played, or turn a blind eye when the filters, bags and tools are made in China? I'm just wondering really that's all - I find the American's distaste for Chinese things quite amazing. The U.K aren't that bothered.
Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #15   Jun 9, 2011 5:07 am
vacmanuk wrote:
Well in the past I'm sure you've pointed out that vacuums can't be compared to automobiles...

Of all the models made in America, are the consumables also produced in America too? How far does it go to for American buyers - does everything have to be produced in America for the patriotic card to be played, or turn a blind eye when the filters, bags and tools are made in China? I'm just wondering really that's all - I find the American's distaste for Chinese things quite amazing. The U.K aren't that bothered.


Hi guys,

I can’t say I know exactly where we stand these days but I do know that what we’re standing in is one heck of a mess.  We’re past the point of easy return since so much damage has occurred due to our insistence on cheap luxury.

The issue certainly isn’t about patriotism and probably never was.  It’s about the making of dollars by companies and corporations and also about communities built in the process and subsequently lost once industries that allowed them to thrive went belly up.  Also, the discussion encompasses more than just cars and vacuum cleaners.  Big time American manufacturers like Westinghouse, Whirlpool and General Electric made everything from vacuums to televisions to large and small appliances.  All these devices were not only made domestically but were sold domestically as well to the benefit of all involved.

In any event, in past American industries like auto and appliance makers were relatively self-sufficient.  I may be leaving out a few things but their essential imports were rubber and bauxite for aluminum.  We had our share of copper and also made steel and glass domestically.  Thus as I stated prior, communities sprang up along side industry and each served the other well for a good while.  Take away the economic heart of things – namely industry -- and what do you get?  Ghost towns.  Things are really hopping in Detroit these days, hmm?

As for vacuum buyers, whether selling or out browsing in stores, I continue to see shoppers, all sizes, shapes and colors, passing up so-called “quality” for cheap fixes.  I feel that ongoing reports of lost jobs, foreclosures, etc., explain that.

That said, choice may well be limited for lots of folks who’d like better these days.  There’s no lament on my part but if I’ve dropped 500 bucks or more on a vacuum – it was because I wanted to and because only I was affected by the disproportionate expense.  There are no little faces at my table waiting to be fed; no one that I have to think about helping through college.

Moderator Mike_W


"There is no BEST or PERFECT vacuum cleaner"

"Take care of your vacuum, then your vacuum will take care of you"


Joined: Dec 1, 2004
Points: 1683

Re: "Made in China" --A Rant.
Reply #16   Jun 9, 2011 1:42 pm
vacmanuk wrote:
Well in the past I'm sure you've pointed out that vacuums can't be compared to automobiles...

Of all the models made in America, are the consumables also produced in America too? How far does it go to for American buyers - does everything have to be produced in America for the patriotic card to be played, or turn a blind eye when the filters, bags and tools are made in China? I'm just wondering really that's all - I find the American's distaste for Chinese things quite amazing. The U.K aren't that bothered.

Mike_W wrote:
As for the "Made in China" rant, and keeping it to vacuum cleaners, I will say that it is better to  buy "Made in USA" for us Americans.  There should be no restrictions though.  If you make a bad product, I will go someplace else.  If I cannot afford it, I will go someplace else.  That is my right as a customer.  We did see this w/the auto industry, in the past.

Not all Chinese-made vacuum cleaners are bad.  Some are good-quality.  

As you can see in the first paragraph, it was in regards to vacuum cleaners.  The last sentence dealt w/the auto industry.  I did not go on about a car company or Walmart stock.  Did not go on about Target opening/closing stores.  Did not talk about the economy.  Vacuum cleaners!  There are countless threads, where the conversation has veered off topic.  I really did not jump in, but you showed everyone that you do know the rules.  Did we veer off and discuss cars?  Not yet.

Like I said in my post, "It is better to buy 'Made in USA' for us Americans."  I guess that is where our countries differ.  We tended to be a country, which was self sufficient in every area.  We had resources.  We could think it, design it, make it, sell it, use it.  I also have to say that some of us have gotten lazy and not wanting to "keep on our toes".  That is where my comment re: auto industry come in.  Other companies, from other countries stepped forward. 
The world is alot different from the world of the 1950's.  Other countries want to sell their floorcare in our country and our country has companies like Kirby, Rexair, Health-Mor, etc. who want to sell vacuum cleaners in other countries.

 If you read on, in my comment, you will see there are "BUT"s.  No one should be held captive to buying an American brand vacuum cleaner if it is not what they want or desire.   We should not be held captive to paying a high price either.  I have to wonder what price Just paid for his Kirby?  I would also like to ask the other vacuum enthusiasts, who purchase Kirby, Rainbow, Tristar, etc.  Do you pay the full asking price or do you pay a lower price?  You see, that tells a story also about this whole subject.  I already know the answer. 

I think you need to ask your last question of other members, because I do like some Chinese-made vacuum cleaners and their consumables.  When Envirocare bags first came out, I pushed them, because they were good quality.
Replies: 1 - 16 of 16View as Outline
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