Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Hi everyone, The other day I had a conversation with an indie central vacuum shop owner that recently became a Dyson dealer/service center, and from that little chit chat I learned of a few things. First off, the DC14 upright is being discontinued in the coming months. He isn't sure if it will have a new model take its place, but I think it's safe to assume that the same DC33 that is replacing the DC14 in the UK will replace it on this side of the pond as well. Secondly, he revealed that the DC31 handheld is being discontinued as well. I wasn't sure I believed him on that count, but surely enough, a quick google search reveal that DC31's are on clearance, and even being labeled as "discontinued" by walmart.com (google "dyson DC31 discontinued", and read the second link). There is nothing to indicate that the handheld will see another successor at this time. Also, though he didn't mention anything about the DC22, I strongly believe it is on the way out as well, with many retailers slashing prices and clearing them out (again, google "dyson DC22 discontinued", and read the sixth link down).

CarmineD wrote:
It's perhaps common practise these days; to have production equipment that can easily be re-sited. It would certainly ensure you aren't too reliant on a contract manufacturer.
Possibly no conspiracy beyond that. We'll have to wait and see what type of motors any future products include.

M00seUK wrote:

Once again I have to rebut you.  Discontinuing the DDM products like the DC16, DC31, and DC22 outright and upfront AND shuttering the DDM production plant before transitioning to another site and/or launching new products with DDM send a message loud and clear to me and probably others in the industry.  The DDM at least in the handhelds and canns are a flop for whatever reasons and there may be many.  Nothing to wait and see.  The chapter closed on those products using DDM and the plant producing.   It's back to the drawing board anew.  Back to square 1 for vacuum applications of DDM.  I'm not buying what you and dyson are selling on the DDM for hand dryers either.   But the latter are no concern to me as a vacuum professional [even if a retired one]. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
During the 90s Dyson contracted with a US company, Philips Plastics, for production of the early vacuum cleaners. They had quite a disruptive falling out over pricing, but Dyson was still able to move the moulds in to their own facility with the minimum of disruption, even though some moulds were with-held pending final payments and Philips staff allegedly vandalised many items of the equipment.

You might well be correct, that 2 weeks is a touch on the optimistic side. However, if Dyson planned ahead on a move, all the new contacts would already be signed. As a production line is a potential business fail point, key Dyson employees would have plenty of documentation in place to ensure that a relatively quick relocation could be made in the event of natural disasters, civil unrest, long-term power failures, etc.

When changing contact supplier, it would make much more sense financially to relocate, rather than replicate the production line and wind one down - so long as their supply chain / lead times are covered.

CarmineD wrote:
The DC16 never had a DDM part. The DC22 would have used the the DDM v1. Sources suggest that the DC30 / DC31 handheld is being discontinued and supplys run down, but it might be that it's being replaced with an updated model. I would personally find it highly unlikely that Dyson is exiting the handheld market, but as said, time will tell.

The AirMultiplier fan uses the DDM v2 and it sounds likely that the upcoming Digtal Slim will as well and maybe even items in the Dyson kitchenware range (as suggested by the patent filings) in the near future. Do you have anything to suggest that Dyson no longer has a facility *anywhere* making motors to their design?

M00seUK wrote:

More like ridiculously optimistic.  Not that I'm correct.  Of course I am.  You're incorrect to suggest 2 weeks is a realistic time for moving any part production from one place/source to another.  Months are more like it assuming everything you say above is already done without any problems.  Unless cutting costs is your goal [or government/political unrest which is a clear and present danger to life], you always produce in parallel site/source operations until you know for sure the new site/source is up, running AND reliable.  You write off/amortize the redundant costs of operations as part of business/plant relocation expenses.  It's done all the time.  Just like you do with R&D.  You never shut down the old plant/cut off the old supplier if it is your only source, especially for a critical component like a DDM.  You never go solo with a new, untested site/source, unless it's a start up for a new product that is not yet marketed and sold.  If you have an ongoing product operation, you need absolute certainty the new site/source is reliable with no interruption/delay of business operations.  Unless, of course, you forewarn retailers and customers to expect a down time and give time estimates with best and worse timeframes.  Then you have to meet them.  Cutting the old and turning on the new is just too risky for current operations.  And the reputation for your brand name if you blow it.  Even for a maverick like Sir James.

Having said all this, I'm sure Sir James and dyson ARE pondering these issues now as we post here.  For very good reasons.

Carmine D.

M00seUK wrote:

The DC16 is scrubbed.  Now DC30 and DC31 [both DDM users] are discontinued too and being sold on clearance.  Pretty good evidence that the DC22 the baby dyson which uses the DDM is over too.  No superceding handheld/cann models with DDM announced to date.  Your belief about dyson not exiting the handheld market is on pretty shakey ground.  Your belief that a DDM will be used soon in a slim upright is on shakey ground too based on the demise of the baby dyson cann.  I'm not interested in hand dryers, fans, and yet to be launched kitchen ware using DDM.  I am interested in a DDM slim upright but that is still pie in the sky based on a patent for a number of potential uses none of which are launched or scheduled to be launched.  The rumor that a DC33 was a likely candidate for a DDM slim upright proved incorrect.  Like relocating DDM production in several weeks: Alot of optimism, not much reality.

I have no evidence that dyson has any facility anywhere right now or in the future for making DDM vacuum motors.  All indications suggest otherwise: Dyson closed the chapter on DDM vacuum applications and is going back to the drawing board.  I know the plant where the DDM vacuum motors were made is shuttered and/or the vacuum motor production is abandoned.  Why?  All the vacuums using DDM are discontinued and none have been announced that will use DDM except in a patent.  That's pretty good evidence for me and probably others that it's over for DDM and vacuums.  Maybe a DDM stick vacuum that uses a power cord.  That's a possibility for dyson but depends on the price.

Carmine D. 

Went into Costco for broccoli but peeked the vacuum aisle on my way to teh produce section.  The DC14 is still there but for $299.00 today.

Venson

Dyson needs to get this motor ready for prime time, and put it in use within a product that people actually want/need (i.e. - A full size upright priced between $400-$550). I strongly think that their flagship motor technology should have been featured in an upright all along rather in niche products such as an $800 mini-canister or an extravagantly priced hand held. I think with the right marketing and the restrained pricing (A strong focus on zero carbon emissions and heightened efficiency, as well as a price tag THAT ISN'T $800, lol), this upright could succeed. I think a DC18 successor with a digital motor, reduced weight, and other features like variable suction control and LED lighting would make a far superior design compared to the DC25; the company's flagship(s) and current best seller--the department store of which I'm currently employed sells more DC25's than any other vacuum we sell, and surprisingly enough, a good number of DC28's along with them. I'm pretty certain that this Digital Slim is coming (what other Dyson product in patent purgatory has a trademarked logo?), but I hope for their sake that they hold back the overzealous pricing on this one, and price it as a volume seller and not a novelty niche item. It kinda scares me to speculate how high this model can be priced, seeing that they attempted selling the DC22 at over $800; I hope DC22's failure will convince them to lower the prices on future DDM products.

On a side note, I don't think the Air Multiplier has the V.2 DDM. I've only seen the motor referred to as "Brushless AC motor", which leads me to believe that it isn't a DDM (something which Dyson has marketed the hell out of for their Airblade and DC31 handheld). In addition, we have two Air Multipliers at work, and the motor(s) sound nothing like the DDM (as used featured in the DC22 and DC31).

iMacDaddy wrote:

iMacDaddy:

IMHO the recent DDM slim patent on a wide range of vacuums/floorcare products [does and will dyson have ANY of the latter?] including some already in production suggests one of two things/both.  First, dyson is concerned another maker may trump his DDM in vacuum applications [always a concern of his] and he wants to be ready to pounce with a lawsuit to collect proceeds for the infringement [typical dyson operating procedure].  Two, dyson plans to sell the patent rights to the DDM for vacuum applications to recover some of the expensed R&D lost on it and go in another direction with DDM for other household applications. 

Apparently, despite vehement opinion to the contrary it appears dyson has in fact scrubbed its MAP awhile back [latest evidence is Venson's post above regarding discontinued DC14] and current dyson models typically advertised and sold for less than MAP.  Usually 20 percent discounts [MAP is 10] not counting other buyer incentives.  More unlike the traditional dyson we know, is the latest DC33 line [in the UK] which  IMHO is a budget minded consumer line.  It took dyson/Sir James awhile but maybe it finally clicked. 

Carmine D.