Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Some observations -

• Oreck is conspicuously missing from the upright ratings.
• Panasonic has a new AeroBlast for $700 is a apparently a poor copy of a Dyson that burps loudly when it reverses the air flow to clean the filter.   Why would anyone pay so much for a Dyson copy, particularly when the filter clogs with fine dust?
  
• Hoover's fall from grace is noted, presumably due to their ill conceived bagless vacuums.  Hoover now has the worst reliability of the uprights.  Dyson is second only to Kirby in the reliability rankings.   
  
• For uprights, Kenmore takes the top 2 spots (bagged and bagless), followed by the Riccar SupraLite RSL3, the Electrolux Oxygen EL5035A, and the Kirby Sentria.  
  
• The Halo is #33 on the list for uprights. 
  
• The $60 Hoover Tempo Widepath has a better tool airflow score than the Dyson DC17 as well as better carpet cleaning scores. 
  

Thanks Severus.  I'll be on the lookout for the magazine.  I also did a quick check for pricing online and actually getting $700 for the AeroBlast (Model MC-UL975) is probably more a sweet notion on the maker's part as opposed to possible.  One shopper's club already has it for about $480. 

I searched but was not able to find a manual for it at the Panasonic website.  Thanks again.

Venson

Thanks also, Severus.  I've been looking for the March 2008 CR on the news stands, since I don't subscribe. It hasn't made it there yet.  Still February's for sale as late as today in most stores.

I've always liked the HOOVER Tempo and CR has too.  I mentioned this fact before but it's worth repeating.  RC Willey, the largest retailer of furniture, appliances, electronics, and floor coverings here in the West, stocks and sells several brands of vacuums: Bissell, HOOVER, and dyson.  With models in all the prices ranges.  Several times a year, it has huge rug and carpet sales and offers a free vacuum with all purchases over $1000.  The vacuum gifted with the purchases:  HOOVER Tempo.

Some may say that's because they are cheap so the cost for the giveaway is minimal.  Maybe there is some merit for this.  However, considering carpets are a huge cost and come with a substantial manufacturer's guarantee, which may span several years, RC Willey has to provide a vacuum that will ensure the rugs' guarantee is met.  It chooses the HOOVER Tempo.  One of my all time favorites.

WRT reliability: CR generally offers the following caveat for percentages:  Differences of less than 4 points aren't meaningful.  Based on the March 2007 CR, HOOVER ranked 8 out of 11 with a percentage of 12 for repairs.  While the 9th [RICCAR] and 10th [Simplicity]  rankings for reliability were 13, and 14 percent.  Based on the CR caveat, these would all be considered comparable for reliability. 

CR also provides footnotes further qualifying the reliability data such as "Kirby has been among the most reliable upright brands" and "Fantom has been among the more repair-prone upright brands."  In an effort to gauge the historical trend for reliability data for more meaningful results.  Why?  In part, to eliminate differences linked solely to age and usage of the product.  Intuitively, it makes sense that newer brands and models are less likely to need repairs.  Which skews the reliability data in favor of newer makes and models at the expense of older and more in use models.  My sense is adjusting the ratings for the latter [age and usage] is hard to do.  CR does not specifically say how it does. 

Carmine D. 

Severus wrote:

I'm not saying this is THE reason, just a possible one.  Oreck recently introed a XL Deluxe which is less expensive than the XL 21 Ultra and more price competitive with its peers [read dysons].  The XL 21 has been consistently reviewed by CR.  Oreck may want to submit its newest model for CR testing rather than the old.  It may take time for CR to run the new Oreck upright through the testing rigors and report on the results. 

Carmine D.

Hi Guy's. If the reports are accurate,which makes me want to believe that consumers reports are more than likely clueless.Are they in bed with sears and L.G.,How are their reliability rating formed?.Why do they always rate expensive uprights as not worth the money?.You guy's know that the upright market is going down the chute.As for 700.00 for the bagless panasonic [dyson looking clone],I would say that panasonic is doing this on purpose to make dysons price look like a bargain.Are panasonic and dyson in a business venture together?[MAYBE]..

MOLE

CR buys some of it's test vacs from my old employers' stores and one was the Aero-blast. They really didn't like it either.

I believe the Callisto was to be rated, I personally love this vac and was wondering how it did? Was the Sebo Felix rated.

Hi Mole,

Just speaking about Kenmore, the brand's top of the line canisters and uprights usually have deservingly meritted good ratings by way of performace and price.  They are not be all end all machinery but in consideration of higher priced niche vacuums and other cleaning inventions certainly hold their own.  If I am correct, performance and price are of high importance to CR.  My best example is Kirby, or at least the first that comes to mind.  CR does not deny its excellent rug cleaning ability or air filtration but has in past recommended that there are other vacuums that can deliver the same results for much, much less money.  It's not a great way to put it but like the Chevy, Kenmore vacs are the poor man's Cadillac -- of vacuums that is.

As for LG, I think they are trying hard but possibly failing in the American vacuum market.  I think the Progessive Bagless (the Iridium) is just great and as satisfactory as any of the Dyson canisters but don't get the feeling that my opinion is shared my many.  The new Premalite is nice on the eye and should clean well enough but I still hear talk about the wand/handle lock not being so hot.  A reduction in price closer to the $300 mark might make the public a little more hot to trot in regard to it.

Nonetheless, it is anticipated that Sears,known for providing just about everything, will always provide vacuums under its long-trusted Kenmore name. Sears in past had alliances with Whirlpool and Matsu$#%*a (both of which simultaneously produced vacuums under their own brand) which for such a commonplace venue produced some stellar product.  Product from each of those lines was totally different but obviously someone buying for Sears had enough on the ball either way to see to the the integrity of product that kept customers coming back for years and years.  This century I guess its simply LG's turn at bat even though I wonder if it can muster popularity for product it outsources.  It produces all sorts of appliances under its own name -- love my LG refrigerator and air conditioner too -- but I don't quitre get why it didn't do the same with vacuums for our market.

Best,

Venson

mole wrote:

Mole:

My sense is that it is not just uprights but all expensive [read substantially higher prices than average].  Why?  In part, Consumer Reports feels its mission in part is to "save people money" while assisting them to make smart buying decisions.  How?  By comparing a $500 dyson to a $60 HOOVER and saying don't waste your money on the dyson, when a $60 HOOVER is better.  I'm not making this example up.  CR uses this example in writing to promote subscriptions and readers.  That example is straight from its advertising.

Carmine D.

Hi Venson,I respect your opinion, you know something about this business,I and other industry pro's feel that L.G.will put an end to sears big share of the canister and upright market.

No one can argue that the panasonic made KENMORE products were a good bang for the buck machine.

For your information,The other electrolux,[THE ONES LIVING ON THE LUX USA] COATAILS.

The backlash is starting to really catch up to them.And you and i both know this machine was rated very high in c.r.

FORGET ABOUT ALL THE HYPE AND DYNAMIC ADVERTISING, IT'S ABOUT TIME TO START MAKING PRODUCTS THAT GIVE THE CUSTOMER THEIR MONEYS WORTH,AGAIN......

I AM PERSONALLY GETTING REAL TIRED OF THIS JUNK BEING MADE TODAY.........

i'll take an old lux,kirby,f.q.even a royal anyday...................

MOLE

CR also lacks in informing the public of the repair rate of some machines. This stat would take the control out of their hands and rely on the repair shops input so I understand WHY they don't do it but even still it's a disservice. Those Eureka/Electrolux are burning up Hose and Wand contacts like crazy and those replacement hoses on the Oxygen aren't cheap, especially when compared to the purchase price. Customers are quite shocked when the bill comes in. Plus who can or wants to try breaking into one of these things.

Quite true LUCKY1........

mole wrote:
Hi all,
Mole, I second your opinion.  This appears to be quite common today, whether it be vacuums, automobiles, furniture, appliances, even the level of customer service that is given today, just about everything is JUNK, even the so called "higher quality" products are a joke too!

I recently bought a Lindhaus Aria, it has been in the repair shop longer than it has been in my house, I'm very disappointed to say the least.

"take an old lux, kirby, f.q. even a royal anyday..." this is probably one of the most common sense statements I've heard in a long while.  I'll add to it, refurbish/rebuild them as well!

Vernon

mole wrote:

Hiya Mole,

Take a look! I finally got the quote thing figured out.  Anyway . . .

In recent times too many facets of business have relied upon buying up or relying on names to slap on flavor of the day product to make money off a dumbed-down public.  And that kind of business is all about nothing.  I in no way believe the American public is that dumb just beleagured with too many essential problems to argue.  Therefore, for the consumer, the least path of resistance becomes easy to follow when you've more important things on your mind than merely choosing a vacuum cleaner. 

When hit with endless hype by way of legendary name or cyclones or powers of levitation or germ zapping potential or whatever so-called convenience, it's easy to half-hear the story and half-think in regard to what you're about to buy.  How much do we think about price when the usual is to reach into pocket or purse and whip out a credit card.  That 500, 800 or 1,000 dollars is in no way considered peanuts but throw in the possibility of "easy payment" and there you go -- done deal. That has become a way of life here for many and, per constant reports of credit card debt, a big problem for many.  Even with the benefit of a credit card people have had to seriously come to grips with what they're buying and why.

If we in the U.S. continue to face the scary economic situation we're experiencing, something's got to give if the rent's going to stay paid up.  The "money for nothing" deal could soon be going out the window.  After all what is money that can be well-used elsewhere when spent on high-priced product that's less or no more effective than the same to be had at a lesser price? Waste.

I am not against "luxury" or, if you will, high-end items that bear high prices or those that can afford them.  It always feels a kind of nice to have something different, possibly a cut above the what's in the house next door.  Nonetheless, I am thoroughly against anything over-priced.  To me over-priced items are any high price tag products made without particular skill, quality or forethought. 

Here I'd ask anyone old enough to recall, if the pricing ratio on vacuums have remained the same.  Did the prices for Elecxtrolux G, Kirby, FQ, or Rainbow fall in as high proportion against the average weekly wage as they do know?  I remember as a kid that the brands like Hoover and Eureka, sold in department stores and small vendorships, usually charged a whopping $89.95 for a top-of-the-line model.  If the porportion of price is still the same now as then I have no particular argument yet I would question why the brands mentioned still turn up years later and are still capable of giving service.

I don't delight in seeing either people or industry learn things the hard way but as my grandad always said, "A hard head makes for a soft you-know-what."  I'm reconsidering my borrowed "just say no" attitude as there may not much chance for manufacturers or consumers to wrestle over acceptable product if in future it's no longer a matter of saying, "No," but saying, "Sorry, I can't afford it."

Best,

Venson

Lucky1 wrote:

Hi Luck1,

Hose replacement cost is not just a problem with the brand mentioned.  Unfortunately, it may cost near half the price of the cleaner to replace an electrified hose on even a Kenmore canister.  Multiply the problem by the number of other brands that offer a bare minimum of consumer repairable components and the picture is ridiculous.  I'll spare you my rant. 

I had a problem with a Kenmore hose and only got around buying a complete new hose because I knew what I needed when I contacted the Sears parts department.  This should have led to an outcome better than most.  BUT the fly in the ointment was that though the parts department would very happily sell the part, it would not tell you how to install it.  Fortunately I managed on my own. 

Electrolux (Aerus) for a time made a very easely replacable attachement-end on its hoses but has also gave up on that.  Most other brands have fallen into the same practice of forcing the buyer to buy a complete component instead of parts especially in regard to electrified hoses -- most of which are outsourced in the first place.  This is just anothe way of squeezing more money out of consumrs and it won't stop until somebody starts kicking.

Venson

Hi Vernon,Venson,LUCKY1,and anyone else that knows this business,[Yes Carmine even you].

I would like to submit the following question.

1 If you are in charge of producing a cleaner,and cost  and quality is the most important factor,and of course staying in business is important,What type of cleaner would you build, and what price point would you chase.

2 Would you hire people to design,engineer it, give it a retro look?.

3 or buy a company thats already going and use the   same as it's always been approach......

Please think about what and where this industry has become before posting........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

First, congrats on the Super Bowl victory by the Giants.  NY won, without the point spread.  Here in Vegas it was 10 points.  Must have cost the book makers a fortune.  I knew many who picked the Giants outright without the spread. 

Excellent questions.  In my experience, the most innovative vacuum technology without question in my lifetime is the IRobot vacuums.  Very interesting company history and products.  This is the future in vacuums.  All styles, prices and features.  To date, iRobot has the lock on the market.  Even to the exclusion of other brands who try to compete.  Most retailers have culled competing robotic vacuums in favor of the Rhoomba.  Intro'ed in September 2002 without alot of hype and fanfare.  Now in its 5th generation of robotics with an array of related products [which result in economies of scale and less expensive prices].  Robots were the talk of the vacuum industry in the 50's although no one had any vision of what they would be like and how they would work. 

Sidebar:  I have to laugh at the critics here who kow tow the robotic vacuums in one breadth and in the other idolize bagless cyclones instead.  The latter can't hold a candle to the former in terms of innovation, technology, and impact on the vacuum market and the future of the industry.

Central vacuum systems have progressed in my lifetime and become more price competitive with better performance.  Comparable to the best and priciest portables.

Filtrete paper bags.  I see even BEST BUY advertises the Eureka Boss Smart Vac upright and the filtrete paper bags along with.  Others too of lesser significance but still credit worthy: Uprights with on board tools [thanks to HOOVER Dial], self-propelled [again HOOVER] and yes, even lightweights thanks to Oreck.   And an array of desirable features like the auotmatic shut off [Lux], the full bag indicator, and so on.

BTW, the Eureka Boss Smart Vac upright is another missing from the March 2008 Consumer Reports, which went on stands yesterday.  So are the new Eureka Capture uprights [the latest and greatest Eureka bagless uprights].  The latter possibly due to the newness and need by CR for more time to test and rate.

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,

Thank you for your reply,I agree with you that robotics have been talked about for years in the industry.

Is it at the point where these are worthy of the asking prices? I understand that most of the public really likes this idea,[have someone or something else do the work for them]

The robotics machines range from 59.95 to 1800.00. I quess the closest thing yet in the other sector are central vacuum systems,[this market is starting to make a lot more sense with the price of high end portables,these are a much better bang for the dollar.[The same problems arise with this as with the portables,the customer still has to take it out and use it.[The hose].

The high end portable market especially the upright market is on the decline,yes there are a few machines out there that have captured the commercial market,[NOT THE ONES THAT SOME ON THE FORUM THINK IT IS].

Lets face it Carmine,people are vey lazy today,More than likely because of machines that do the work for them.

Another thing that i am taking note of today is that the younger generation[under 40],is that anything more than 5 years old is out of style and they must have new and shiny stuff.. And the price they pay for it is borderline lunacy............

MOLE

mole wrote:
1. I would build a Canister just like the Miele Galaxy Series (Carina, Antares etc) but with an electric hose connected to a Sebo ET1 powerhead. A sealed system with advanced HEPA option. I would like it to be at the $499.00 price point but I think customers (at least in the NY Metro Area) would pay $650.00 or more. I get SO MANY people asking for powerful, Healthy, Lightweight Canisters.

I would like an upright like the Simplicity Freedom BUT WITH TOOLS (or ability to take tools) and a roller shutoff switch. Price point at $349.00 or less. Also a Sebo Felix but with a better design at $499.00

2. I would go VERY MODERN & STREAMLINED. Make it very simple looking and easy to use. I find customers shy away from anything with lots of stuff hanging off a vac. The Felix is a fantastic and unique vacuum but it's style is a hard sell.

3. Anyone who Knows the Eureka-Electrolux sham should despise the deceit pulled on the unsuspecting public but you cannot deny how successful it is working. GRRR!

PS Who is making the Kenmore stuff that is top rated in CR? Is it LG? Panasonic still?

Thanks

Hi LUCKY1,you and i think along the same lines,mix up a few of the best features from each company,and then price it at a fair markup. Yes you are correct the electrolux/a.b has done a lot of damage to the other aerus/electrolux.A lot of customers that had the origional lux product have bought the eureka/lux stuff and felt like they been suckered.

The comments we hear run along the following lines.Boy what junk electrolux is building now.

For your information,the aerus products are still being built with no planned obsolensince, all the parts are available,the hose handles ,powernozzle parts,right down to the elbow sleeves, and wire harnesses. Aerus sells their products with the consumer in mind.And stand behind their warranty.

The stores are mostly held by individual owners,some are excellent with people that have been in the industry for years,and some are run by BOZOS,    who dont deserve to be in the businees..............

MOLE

Lucky1 wrote:

Hello Lucky1:

I posed that same question to SEARS persons today.  Here's how they answered.  They showed me the SEAR's vacuums' labels with place of production/origin:  China!  And said: "Who knows?"  Which brought us to a discussion about the new HOOVER WT Cyclonic.  Made in China, after the TTI buyout of Maytag/Hoover.  With a HOOVER, North Canton Ohio label.  As we know that plant has been shuttered.

Carmine D. 

Got my issue yesterday.  I agree with everything Severus said, especially about that AeroBlast!  Why pay more for a Dyson copy when you can get the real thing for less?  I don't understand.  The air-blowing action is supposed to clean the pre-motor filter (it is a dual-cyclone with no bin filter), but the dual cyclone setup must not work well if the pre-motor filter clogs.  The Halo rating doesn't surprise me either, actually we could say that's one of the few instances where CR is right.  

I was pleased to see Dyson score as second-most-reliable for uprights.  The Hoover cyclonic bagless cleaners are a TTI design, I thought they were interesting and not badly constructed but I guess reader surveys indicate otherwise.  Although since Hoover hasn't been all that reliable in recent years, I wonder if the old design is contributing to that drop as well. 

Notice that again, the Electrolux Oxygen scores highest for canisters, while its sister models (Harmony and TwinClean) score considerably lower.  Why?  Apparently pet hair stopped the power nozzle just as it did on the last test.  Yet these cleaners use the same power nozzle!  In addition I see the DC17's ranking has improved as well, yet the machine itself is unchanged.  On the last report it scored 1 lower than the Bissell HealthyHome (which has also remained unchanged).  The DC21's rather low rating was disappointing, it's a lot better machine than they make it out to be.  Ridiculous.

The Kenmore, Tempo (with "Ametek Shanghai" motor no less), and Oxygen ratings are unsurprising, always a need for a "token machine".  In real life there's no way they would fare that well, and even so, how long would they last...

Motorhead wrote:

Hey dyson return man:

Had to "bash" the HOOVER TEMPO, a $60 vacuum.  Of course, because I praised it and CR for the excellent pick.  It moved up 2 in the rankings this year to number 6 and is ahead of the DC17 [your favorite] which costs $549 and comes in at 7.  Beat by a $60 HOOVER.  And the TEMPO has a headlight AND DYSONS DON'T.

Now to answer your question. An easy one.  At $60 per for a HOOVER TEMPO a consumer can buy 9 in total [at $540] which will outlast ONE dyson DC17 at $549.  AND the buyer has the benefit of NINE years [MINIMUM] of unconditional product guarantees NOT 5 year [MAXIMUM] limited guarantee on a DC17 PLUS A HEADLIGHT.

HOME DEPOT has added the HOOVER TEMPO to its sales venue recently while culling several dyson models from its inventory and shelves.  Wonder why dyson man?

Carmine D.

WRT the HOOVER TEMPO: Since you dyson return man like to peruse the internet for reviews and links I thought I would too.

One link here on this site rates the HOOVER TEMPO a 100 percent for popularity among buyers and users [higher than all other upright vacuums including dysons].  Why? Read on.

Hoover U5140900 Bagged Tempo Widepath Product Reviews
Review Excerpt
"I shopped extensively for a new vacuum. This one is the best model if you're looking to spend less than one hundred dollars. It works great." see at least 6 more reviews at pricegrabber.com
"Got this a couple of months ago as per the CR recommendation. It works good on carpet, not so good on hard floors." see at least 415 more reviews at amazon.com
"Powerful/Good Suction, Feels self propelled, Easy to Use, Efficient, Lightweight" see at least 216 more reviews at abtelectronics.com
"Seems to clean the carpets good, it is light weight and I don't really notice that it is not self-propelled, however it is loud and the cord is shorter than my other vac. cleaner. If you don't want to spend a lot of money this cleaner will get the job done." see at least 3 more reviews at astore.amazon.com 298 posters rate HOOVER Tempo 5 Stars.  248 posters rate it a 4.5.  187 rate it 4.  26 rate it 3.  9 rate it 2 20 rate it 1.  733 users out of 788 rate it 4 Stars or higher.  Pretty convincing and impressive. CR must have this one right! Always has. Not you dyson return man.  You're Wrong. Again. Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Let me help you dyson return man. 

Rankings are affected by the number and brand of vacuums tested.  Remember I posted that the Eureka Boss Smart Vacuum was not included in March 2008.  It was in October 2007.  That's one less in the top 10 for tests that could account for the increase by one in the ranking for the dyson DC17.  Right?

What you should compare instead for consistency among the CR ratings are the individual test scores.  If you do, the dyson DC17 in the October 2007 ratings and March 2008 ratings are the same in every test category EXCEPT ONE: Noise.  The rating went from FAIR to GOOD changing the overall score from 64 to 65.  Not that big a difference.  One point. 

How do you know the machine is unchanged?  My sense is that the 450 dyson engineers figured out if they add a little more sound insulation to the motor housing [which could be coating of paint], it will muffle the noise. 

Carmine D. 

Motorhead wrote:

No dyson return man.  Accurate.  Let me help you once again.

IMHO, the reason the dyson DC21 is ranked 54 of 61 is the ratings in the categories for carpet cleaning, noise, and pet hair removal from carpets.  The first and last categories carry a lot of weight for CR.  Don't take my word, read the CR narrative.  The ratings for the dyson DC21 [a $500 bagless canister] are GOOD for all 3.  The dyson DC21 rating for handling, a category that 450 dyson engineers should max out, is FAIR.  Which lowers the overall DC21 rating and rank further vice its competitors.

The carpet cleaning and pet hair removal ratings for the DC21 are not ridiculous, save the fact that dyson after 6 years still can't improve its performance.  Why?  The ratings in these 2 categories are comparable and pretty consistent with the CR category ratings for October 2007 and March 2008 FOR ALL THE DYSONS TESTED:  DC07, DC14, DC15, and DC18.  Either good/fair.  So the DC21 ratings in these specific categories are on par with all the dysons tested by CR for these categories for the past 2 years.  My sense is that if you look back further than 2 years, the same is also true.  Why?  The DC07, 14, and 15 are all three or more years old.  And in this time, dyson uprights have never made the top 10 until now with the the DC17.  Which launched in the USA in September 2006.  And CR first reviewed in October 2007.  It was number 11 behind number 10: The BISSELL Healthy Home.  Which is number 9 in March 2008. 

The only real difference among the dyson vacuum ratings is in the dyson DC17.  It gets very good in these 2 categories and no doubt this is the reason it fares the best in ranks.  And moves up to number 7, in front of the BISSELL Healthy Home.  Why?  Read on.

Compare the BISSELL Healthy Home ratings by category and the Dyson DC17 ratings by category for October 2007 and March 2008.  The BISSELL Healthy Home ratings are identical from one time to the other.  Not so the dyson.  The rating for noise went from fair [October 2007] to good [March 2008].  And the reason the DC17, in part, moved ahead of the BISSELL Healthy Home.

As with the DC21, the DC17 gets a fair in handling.  Which keeps it in the low top 10 in the latest CR rankings.  With 450 dyson engineers, several test laboratories, and all the money spent on R&D, the best dyson can muster for handling for their latest full size vacuums is FAIR.  For shame. 

Dyson did very well in reliability for its first year out in the USA...............but they have to improve the performance of their vacuums.  After 6 years, dyson is still struggling with its performance.  It takes both performance and reliability when you price your products the highest.  The latter doesn't count without the former and vice versa.

Carmine D.

So why is it that the dyson uprights are mediocre,when they basically use the same ydk/panasonic/domel/china ametek,suction motors.The problems must lie somewhere else with the product.You would think that after all the research and development they would have it down pretty good by now.

The dc22 baby can is just another dyson mistake,and should get out of the u.s. canister market.In the longrun these mistakes are going to reflect on the company as a whole,and the consumers are going to shun the products with DYSONS name on it.

Maybe they should get back into the laundry stuff again?

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:

Mr Washed Up,

It seems that the trend at CR is to pick the least expensive.  If one chooses the $60 Hoover should they also invest in a good electronic air filtering system to catch the dust spewed from the Hoover?

I notice that you are now supporting the disposable vacuum.  Is that because all your favorites only last a short time?   Maybe that useless headlight is wearing them out.

 

Just wrote:

Prior to December this was a very civil board.  Then Carmine joined.  From that point it took less than 30 days to lock a topic.  He has also been a major contributor to getting an entire site closed.  Problem is he is living the past and can't comprehend how he was passed by.

In case you do not know, Carmine parted the sea, predicted a flood and provided a ship to save all animals, taught Fred Astair to dance,  taught Joe Louis to box.  No matter what the occurance Carmine always reminds the world that he predicted it way in advance.  He predicted that Dyson would be out of business two years ago.  He predicted that the Hoover Fusion then the Hoover Z would be the next bagless standards.   They are long gone.  There were a few others that he claimed would unseat Dyson in BB and other stores.  It ain't happened.

I see he has a puppet on this site also.  Perhaps he and mole should get in the laundry business.  Both seem to be washed up.

 I really like Dyson!!

Hi  H.S.,remember me?.I invented the wheel........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Yes, and then Carmine made it round so it would roll.  Of course I suspect the two of you also invented electricity because you anticipated a future machine that would suck up dirt..  It would initially be cranked to turn the fan and suck air.  Of course it would not work properly without a light and that required electricity.

HARDSELL wrote:

I have to say that I stopped reading the old board because of the bashing that took place by several members… The saddest part was that a lot (but not all) of the commotion was started by Carmine…

When the old forum closed it was like a breath of fresh air to come onto the new forum, even if for me it was only to read and not post…

I often thought the same thing that you did Hardsell… It was so nice without Carmine stirring the pot. I was actually glad that he had not found his way onto this forum, but knew it would only be a matter of time before someone ruined it for everyone else and led him back…

So once again, most people will stop coming to this forum to actually ask questions – Now that there is a new host of the board, maybe someone will step up and address the actual problem and see about having the problem removed once and for all…

Dan

Danorob wrote:
Dan;

This forum is the same, just using a different program.

Remember to keep your comments/opinions regarding administration/moderator off the posts(same as other forum).  As for "most people will stop coming"-NOT!  It has been the same people for quite some time now, just like the former forum.  There are quite a few who return almost every hour.  We have seen very few visitors posting, even before Carmine.  BTW, this seems to be one of the most active of the few discussion boards here.

Now, bring this thread back to topic and take it off eachother.

HARDSELL wrote:
HardSell:

Most consumers pick the lowest priced machine that meets or exceeds their needs, so why wouldn't CR use a similar criteria.   This particular Hoover is a great bargain at $60.   Given CR's positive emissions rating on this machine, it is a little disingenuous to refer to it as a dust spewer.  Whether it's a wise strategy on Hoover/TTI's part to have such a good performer topping it's more expensive siblings, I don't know.  But that has nothing to do with CR's ratings.  Unless you have lifetime/repair data on this particular Hoover Tempo to share, which I'm sure you don't, you don't really have a leg to stand on when discussing the lifetime of these products - or calling it disposable.   Many people manage quite nicely with their $60 Hoover Tempos.   Assuming that they are not abused, I suspect that most of these Hoovers will still be in service ten years down the road.

The $60 Hoover Tempo Widepath has great reviews on Amazon.com

Severus wrote:

Picking the lowest price machine that meets minimum standards for the consumer does not make that the best overall machine.   If that was true the Ford Taurus and F-150 Ford trucks would be the best autos ever built.

I simply asked if extra filtration was needed since Hoover has been known to spew dust.  I haven't read the latest report.  Was a measurement given for the amount of dust released back into the air?   Have you used a Tempo on tile or wood floors?  My money says it will blow more dust across the room than it vacuums up.  Dyson is excellent for these types of floors. 

Carmine is the one who eluded to replacing the Tempo every year.  For the past 3 years or more he has repeatedly stated that the Dyson will not last.  Maybe you should ask for his lifetiome data.   I used a DC07 for 3 years with absolutely no parts replaced or any other problems.  Try 3 years without replacing belts and bags on other brands. 

Most any vacuum that is not abused should last 10 years.  Big question is how will it perform during that time span?   Good example is the $700  broom with a 21 year warranty.

Hardsell,

Thanks for what you said about the timeline and the trouble they cause.

 You should know this baiting cheap shot and calling you “disingenuous” by someone called “Severus” is indeed “Mole”.  Mole is also “DysonIsOverated”.  He floats around this forum using the Severus or Mole typically.  Most telling, Mole uses children’s fantasy characters from “Harry Potter” for all 3 of his Member profile personas.  Creapy?

 

Dan,

Yes, it is already happening, Good people here are attacked frequently by 2 individuals or “Internet Trolls”.  Lately these good people are posting less and less.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB,  thanks for the heads up.  I was wondering if mole chose that name because he resembles one of those little creatures that always hides underground and roots in his own excrement.  Considered by most to be a pain in the a$$ and useless.

Hi DIB, H.S.,

Dib your wrong in your assumptions about me,I think you should retract that post.H.S. you and I have gone at it for over 3 years now .

You are trying to combat one of the living legends in the industry.

GOOD LUCK.........

THE  MOLE

Hi all,

Here's the Seattle Times interpretation of the latest Consumer Reports vacuum estimations.

Best,

Venson

mole wrote:

Howdy Mole,

I’m so sorry.  It took me a while to come up with a well thought out answer to the questions you posed. . It’s for you to judge how worthwhile all the thinking was.  First let me say . . .

In no way an original thought on my part but, as an instance, in the music industry -- a business unto itself -- there are about three levels of artists.  There are those who do the work more for the love of the craft than love of money and who are unafraid to bear the weight of faith in uncompromised originality on their shoulders.  They make their sacrifices, they put blood, they put sweat, they put tears into the effort of "making" and may gather something of a following but don't usually get the accolades or landmark returns for all the effort invested.  Could this be representative of now defunct Air-Way and some similar old guard American manufacturers either still in business or gone?

Then there those who are adept at imitating the former with less investment.  Onstage, though maybe not as artful, they know all the technical moves to the dance and can match poses with the real talent well enough to produce some semblance of “know how”.  They usually do well because they focus on the look of things re the status quo.  Could that be Aerus and several other companies?

Lowest on the ladder are the mere assemblers of things.  They are picked by bigger entities and haberdashers to put forth cute stuff of dubious quality that money can be quickly made from and ask no bigger questions than, "When's lunch?"  They say what they are told to say, stand where they’re directed to stand and move right to left as directed by guides who care little about the art of manufacture but a lot about pleasing the crowd with the superficial -- again all for money.

Anyway . . .

If I were in charge of putting together a vacuum cleaner from the ground up, though I’d be more inclined to want to develop a traditional bagged canister with power nozzle, I might be also intrigued by seeking a way to the best of both worlds. 

I might want to opt for a two-motor machine say no more than 12-15 inches in overall body width and of no more than a 10-inch height with an attached power nozzle.  The design idea being that the vacuum could be used upright style for rug cleaning and flipped back horizontally for better mobility for above the floor cleaning and other duty.

There would of course have to be safety mechanisms in place to keep the brushroll from becoming operable while the machine is in horizontal position.

I think I’d opt for a hand-operated cordwinder similar to the one used back in the day on the Lewyt 210.  The amount of actions you usually go through to guide a power cord into a spring-wound winder aren’t significantly less involved than reeling in a cord by hand.  There’d be also be less components in the winder to bother about.

I’d first want to find as compact, quiet and well-balanced a two-stage fan and armature set-up as I could get and see to it being well-mounted.  I’d also want to research and design an integral baffle set up, prior or post final filters, for exhaust air that might lessen noise additionally and allow less reliance on sound muffling material that may promote heat build-up.  And all that of course without impeding air flow.  Automobile mufflers basically use this idea don’t they?

Yes, I’d want my machine to be bagged.  I would also want as large as possible high-efficiency filtration area, pre-motor and after, besides a large disposable bag. Design of the bag chamber would of course allow for efficient airflow all around the disposable bag.

Plastic would be used as a mainstay for the overall body of the unit but a metal skeleton of some sort could be used to further strengthen the cleaner’s body and possibly be incorporated as a motor mount.  Ideas as to how to keep the machine as easily owner repairable as is reasonable would also have to be kept in mind while thinking on overall design.

I cannot answer questions as to cost but the idea, I feel, can be realized by way of modification of forms already here.  This is something, Miele, Tacony or Electrolux could easily do it if they wanted to.  Of course the issue is that it would be different.  Different is always an exception on way or the other when making money is in mind.

Best,

Venson

 

 

Hi Venson, thanks for  your imput,well said.

So it looks like we would have to build 2 or 3 different vacuums to satisfy the different consumer needs.

A good arguement if this could be made for airway,staying with one type of machine,although they had an upright a thousand years ago[ok 50 years ago].

At the other end of the spectrum was hoover as we knew it ,mistake after mistake after mistake,finally when there was nothing left , there was nothing left but the name to sell off.Maybe TTI can help hoover make the comeback and start leading the vacuum industry again.Yes the tempo is a good cleaner for 60 bucks.I'm sure TTI has many other areas of  which they would want to do R@D on.

The combo unit your talking about sounds like the seboFELIX, but is way too expensive,As you pointed out many times the average vacuum buyer doesnt care what it does or the projected lifespan is I'M NOT PAYING THAT MUCH FOR A VACUUM CLEANER.

Now we know why the rebuilt vacuum guys do so well,And yes they are the SMART ones in this business.

Also central vacuums are making more sense everyday,MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE PRICING].

The little blue pig that eats dirt was made out of magnesium, I liked the idea if it ever blew up i could melt it down and make a spare wheel for the race car.........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Mole, that's what recycling is all about.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DysonInventsBig,

I feel compelled to  your slanderous comments.   You are out of your mind. I have never and will never post under the nickname "Mole".    Perhaps you are naively assuming that only one person disagrees with your Dyson drivel?   Please keep on task and refrain from making unfounded personal attacks on this forum.  

Curiously, you are attacking people for keeping personal information (i.e. names) private, when you are doing the same.   Or is your name really "I like Inventors"? 

-Severus

Hi gang,

I was at the Riccar site today and discovered a link to a video segment re the top-rated vacumms in the last CR review.  I found it especially interesting since women are involved in making the discussion and, being the main users of these appliances, have a less clinical outlook at the whole thing.  For them it''s often simply about getting the job done.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23008886#23008886

Best,

Venson

CarmineD wrote:
There's no possible way the Tempo will outlast the DC17.  Having seen a Tempo/Windtunnel up close and having used one, I know that.  It's not nearly as well made as the Dyson (remember who's second most reliable in the CR report).  When you buy a $60 vacuum, you get what you pay for.  You don't get the quality of a $500 vacuum, it's just not possible.  You get something that will last you a couple of years and that's it.  Not to mention the cost of upkeep, bags, belts, and such.  2 Type Y bags sell for $9 at K-Mart.  If you change them once a month, it will cost you approximately $60 a year.  Dysons have no additional maintenance costs.

Speaking of Dysons and such, I had a chance to visit my good friend Tom this past week for a cross-country trip to NC and spent last Wednesday and part of yesterday at his shop.  Wednesday afternoon a lady brought in a Tempo (the same one you recommend) for service, complaining that it would not pick up well on carpets.   It looked like a fairly recent machine as the body itself wasn't in bad shape and not abused.  Turns out the belt was stretched and needed replacement, after only one month of use.   The machine itself worked OK (a little squealing), but of course the bag hadn't been changed since who-knows-when and smelled horrible from the exhaust.  The headlight bulb was also burned out, go figure. 

When was the last time you heard about a Dyson belt stretched out after one month?  Another customer brought in a very well-loved yellow Dyson DC07 (easily 4-5 years old) that had been used in a commercial setting.  The bin latch would not release so it needed replacement; consequently the bin was packed full with nasty hair, dirt, etc. since no one could empty it.  The pre-motor filter was absolutely filthy and looked like it had never been cleaned once in its entire life.  But guess what?  Not only did it still run and had suction, the exhaust didn't stink.  Aside from that the machine was fully functional and nothing else on it was broken, as bad as it looked!  I can only imagine how a WindTunnel would last in that environment, not long.  It especially wouldn't continue to pick up and pack that bin even more full like this DC07 did.

Sure, there are probably people that like the Tempo as the reviews indicate, but notice that unlike the DC17 reviews, none of them say it makes them breathe better, or get all of the pet dander out of the carpet.  None say it makes the carpet look better, and not one of the reviews you posted show that anyone's friends recommended it to them. 

CR may not like Dysons all that much, but there's one thing the Dyson has that the others don't: the word-of-mouth popularity that cannot be stopped. 

-MH

M.H. how did the dc07 cyclones look,clean or blocked,did anything get by the premotor filter?

MOLE

mole wrote:
Hi Mole,

The cyclones were dusty, but not clogged.  I heard they do trap some residual fine dust from use and this machine was far from new so that's understandable.  A quick blast with the air compressor will clean them.  The area behind the pre-motor filter was clean.

Motorhead wrote:

MH,

I agree with you that a $500 vacuums should be built better and have more features than a $60 vacuum.  I would also expect the Dyson to perform fairly well on low pile commercial type carpeting where the brush roll design is less important.   Perhaps you forgot to mention that while the belt for the Hoover costs a couple bucks to replace, when you replace the Dyson's belt, you must also buy a new clutch.   Doesn't it cost around $90 to replace the belt and clutch, or has the price gone up recently?   I would expect your good friend Tom to be bullish on Dyson, because he stated on the old forum that he had invested a lot of money in Dyson repair parts, and he expected to have a fruitful retirement. 

For many people, the $500 is far beyond their reach.  It is great that people can buy a decent vacuum cleaner for $60.  It might not look as pretty as a Dyson, but it will do a good job on their carpeting. 

Dyson's not a bad vacuum.    It has taken Dyson a while to learn how to build a brush roll for American style carpets, but the Dyson DC17 seems to be a fairly good cleaner.   Perhaps one of Dyson's new vacuums would even work on Carmine's carpeting, but who knows. 

Hoover has certainly gone down hill recently, and now that it's owned by a Chinese company, the future doesn't look so hot.  A vacuum repair specialist told me that they will no longer repair Hoover, Dirt Devil, and Eureka vacuum cleaners because thecompanies don't want to pay labor costs, and they are extremely slow to reimburse the cost of parts.  He said that he loved working on Orecks, and that Oreck was very helpful. 

CR neither likes nor dislikes Dysons.  They put every vacuum through their set of tests and call them like they see them.  They report on the positives and negatives, perhaps in less detail than some of us would prefer. 

Hi Severus,

On the DC07 and DC14, the clutch as well as the belt from the clutch to the brushroll is not what wears out.  There's another belt that goes from the motor to the clutch (I had no idea these used 2 belts but apparently they do) that can stretch out over a long period of time and needs to be replaced.  That belt costs only 90 cents retail and the job can be done in less than a few minutes.  The DC15, 18, and 21 have 2 motors with a gear-driven brushroll, eliminating the belt completely.  That setup seems to be doing well (it would have to, otherwise Dyson wouldn't be using it in their new models with the exception of the DC17) although I heard from another person that he's had a few DC15s in with abnormally noisy gearboxes.  If I recall, that isn't too cheap to replace, with the price somewhere in the ballpark of $120-150.  The pattern I noticed with all of the stories I heard is that the machine isn't usually the real culprit; it's the customer either misusing it or simply not knowing how (i.e. not given a proper demonstration or reading the manual).  If you suck up fringe with it or a hard object and jam the brushroll, no the machine is not going to handle that well and a little more noise can be expected.

The bottom line is when it comes to misuse/neglect/etc., it doesn't matter what the machine costs or what it is.  If the owner thinks he/she can pick up anything they want with it, of course it's going to have problems down the road.

-MH

EDIT:  After reading IMacDaddy's post, someone else confirmed to me on the phone that the DC17 does indeed have a geared belt; I stand corrected.  For the longest time I thought it was gear-driven like the others; it certainly sounds gear-driven when it's running.  But it does make sense considering that one way to tell if the machine is either gear or belt-driven is to disassemble the nozzle (insert a penny or flathead screwdriver and turn the latches on each side, then remove the endcaps) to see if the brushroll comes out in 2 separate pieces on either side.  Any machine with a 2-piece brushroll is gear-driven.  The DC17's brushroll is one piece.

Actually, the DC17 does use a belt, but it is a cogged belt, which should last a long time, if not, the life of the machine.

does the brush motor stop,if it gets jammed or do the teeth on the belt just get ripped away?

MOLE

Hi all,

More of the public take on the latest CR vacuum reviews -- http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080216/LIFE0805/802160308

Venson

I have had my Dyson DC04 for 5 and half years.  I have never experienced a problem with the belt itself on the machine, it is still the same one that was put into the machine in 2002 when I had to call Dyson engineer to replace the clutch due to the original factory one being abnormally noisy.    Since then it has been no problem.  The only thing I must say is that feature of ratchet when the brushbar gets jammed doesn't work after a while because the belts do lose a bit of their tension, when my DC04 has got jammed it doesn't ratchet at all.

Does the 04,use the 2 belts on the clutch like 07.14,if so which one went away,the one from the motor shaft or the one going to the brushbar.

How long has dyson been using the clutch system that can be gotten apart to change the belts,The ones i have done the housings have been riveted together.

MOLE

Hi MOLE

The Dyson DC04  does use 2 belts like the DC07 and 15 models.  This has been the case from the beginning from the DC03 which was launched in 1999.  The clutch should not really be taken apart but this seems to have also been from the beginning.

The belt that appears to have worn out a little and is 'slipping' when I get my machine jammed is the belt that is coming from the clutch to the brush, it also seems that fine dust gets into the belt train over the years.

Then the machine should have a provision for adjusting the belt tension,just like automotive applications. For what the price of these machines cost,to be on par with other premium priced uprights they should come standard with this feature,3 uprights that are in the 17's price range,lindhaus activa,sebo X series uprights,aerus/electrolux,pro lux series,and legacy uprights all do this.The average useable life of these machines are 15 to 20 years,then it's time for an overhaul, in residential settings.

The trick is to keep the customers.......

what good is level3 cyclonic suction when the machine is in the repair shop,or sitting in the closet.........

MOLE

mole wrote:

What good is an expensive vac that does not clean as well as the Dyson?   The Dyson can be repaired.  Sub par performance out of the box is not repairable. 

Then again,  a Dyson is not likely to fail unless it is severely abused.  I would like to know a brand that will not fail under severe abuse.

Don't want to get into a Dyson brawl but Shipping a Vacuum off to Buffalo to be repaired should not be a SELLING POINT!!!

MOLE  

I understand what you are saying but this is not possible with such a small mechanism on the Dyson clutch, I really felt that Dyson should have used Toothed belts on their clutch but I guess that's why they improved on their newer ones like DC15, 18 AND the American model not available here in UK.

HARDSELL

I really have to disagree wih you on a certain thing you said.  The Dyson can fail even if looked after,  I myself have experienced this with my Dyson cyliner cleaner which completely burnt out despite the maintenance. 

The DC04 has had parts break over the years which the plastic seems to become brittle over time as experieced with some other UK Dyson users on the 1993 - 2002 Dysons as the plastic was different as opposed to the 'shiny metallic' ones they use now.

bucks03 wrote:

Please name me one brand that can not and has not failed even under the best of conditions.

How do you think all of these independents have stayed in business over the years.  Certainly not from sales.  And not from Dyson repairs.

HARDSELL wrote:
Exactly!  Just like the old adage about the car dealerships, they don't make their money on sales...

HARDSELL wrote:

This is incorrect a Dyson can be looked after and still fail, you for one should know Dyson is not fail safe.  Any make appliance can fail if abused but as stated the machine was NOT abused.

bucks03 wrote:

First, did you read my response just two posts up the page?

How should I know the Dyson is not fail safe?  Three years and no problems with mine

HARDSELL wrote:
3 years isn't exactly a long time now is it?

Lucky1 wrote:
There are hundreds of authorized Dyson service centers throughout the U.S., so unless you are located in a remote part of the country, this is not the case.

bucks03 wrote:

No, however, most other vacs recommend an annual tune up in addition to bags and belts between tune ups.   Lower maintenance and more cleaning ability in a Dyson.

Now please tell me what brand is bullet proof.

HARDSELL wrote:

Now please tell me what brand is bullet proof.

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:

An annual tune I'm sure would apply to all vacuum cleaners.  I agree that its good a Dyson does not requre bags and belts.  However more cleaning ability does not apply to just the Dyson.

No brand is bullet proof however ,compare Dyson to a Sebo, Miele, Nilfisk the quality can't quite match.  I do think that the quality in the latest Dysons has improved slightly over my 6 year old DC04 but only slightly.

The machine is only as good as the people behind it,you would not believe the things i have seen.

A current trend for the vacuum sales people today is to sabotage your machine. The door to door crowd seems to be very adepth at doing this.

This practice has put a real dark cloud over the business. I will under no circumstance back up any one who does this,They better start looking for another job............

MOLE

mole wrote:

Mole,

What do you mean by this?  Do they actually damage someone's machine, or just run it down?   I have seen, in fact just this weekend, where the salesman will put a machine at a disadvantage. 

I found this weekend that there are honest people out there, and no so honest.  It is unfortunate that one bad apple will spoil the whole basket of fruit.

mole wrote:

Mole,

What do you mean by this?  Do they actually damage someone's machine, or just run it down?   I have seen, in fact just this weekend, where the salesman will put a machine at a disadvantage. 

I found this weekend that there are honest people out there, and not so honest.  It is unfortunate that one bad apple will spoil the whole basket of fruit.

Hi Just, when your around this stuff as long as i and a few others that i know,you can tell if a certain brand of cleaner has been tampered with,the question i usually ask the customer is did you have anyone service check your vacuum for a performance check,the answer is 90% yes i did,either by some local competing vacuum dealer or some door to door outfit. You would be surprised at the little tricks these guys pull, pull out a seal here, put a componet in backwards,adjust the machine on the lowest setting stalling the brush roll,disconnect one of the lead wires and let it dangle on the teminal,eventually shutting off the motor[this is one of my favorites]. Kirby people are really good at belt changes on kirbys and kicking the brush roll out on the high setting or putting the brush rollor in bacwards,[just swap the caps on the rollor and see what happens.And of course the old talcom powder test that blocks the filters up in a hurry,and bags also.

B.T.W. dysons dc17 is  really giving dyson fits,calls coming in to the tech line are non stop,word has it the the weight of the machine and the over aggresive brush roll it's tearing peoples carpeting apart and causing bald spots.

MOLE

Mole,

I understand now.   I know that an old, now deceased, vac man told me once that he loved to see the DTD's hit the neighborhood.  Because even if they don't buy from the DTD guy, they will usually come in for an upgrade or repair within 90 days of their in home demo.   He said all he had to do was usually change the belt/roller or bag and re-educate them on the merrits of their vacuum and they went home happy. 

I witnessed some of that this weekend with the Sewing/Vac shop I visited.  The man had all kinds of meters hooked up to show me how much better his machine was than the others.  One of the "other" machines was a G6, when he showed me it was only pulling about 40 CFM I reached back and checked the bag.  It was a non-Kirby replacement single ply bag that was partially full.  I actually didn't care, because it wasn't my machine, and I wasn't interested in the one he was showing me.  But I could see how some could be fooled with the slight of hand tricks.  Again, that was just one bad apple.  The other two shops I was in this weekend were very friendly and professional.

The DC17 sounds like a real work horse.  The Dyson brushbar on the other machines in not like that but I have heard of complaintes from American users that the other models brushbars are not aggressive enough and the DC17 seems to be the complete opposite.  

Although I have not used a DC17 at my home I do own a DC21. It’s brushes are much to stiff for my berber carpet and I can feel (when bare footed) much fuzzing on the carpet after vacuuming, I am certain it is damaging my carpeting. I suppose I can attempt to put a DC15 brush roll in my DC21 but have not been motivated to do so. Although my DC15 with its brush roll is perfectly fine to use on my carpets. Speaking ONLY of my DC21/berber combo... it should beat my carpets, not bludgeon. I must say the new DC24/25 brush roll looks to have stiff tuffs too.  Dyson's wide spacing of tuffs typically means stiff tuffs.  I hope I am wrong.        DIB

DC24 hi rez photo

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

Is this the reason that retailers like COSTCO and HOME DEPOT never took on the the DC17 model in their stores and internet Web sites?

Have you heard a rumor that COSTCO plans to drop the dyson line after it sells out of its DC14 Exclusive?

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,

For the record, my local Costco has not had a Dyson in stock for months.  They don't put out much. So far the Bissell Healthy Home and the bagged Hoover Wind Tunnel 2 are what they have.  No canisters are on display either though Costco online has a broader offering.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

How about the iRobot line?  Does your local COSTCO carry it?  The latest and greatest 5th Generation iRobot?  I believe it's the model 500 Roomba. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,in my opinion costco, home cheapo , the buyers cant get the right deal from dyson,you and i both know that price is BIG, these stores only sell on price and price only. How many times have we said that high dollar vacuums and volume department stores are not the venue to sell this product,The honeymoon is over,and hopefully the strong indy's will tell dyson to stick it where the sun dont shine. And the only place left is E-BAY, and the dealers are destroying the prices,lot's of them sell at cost.Will dyson stop it,i dont think so,because the rest have tried and failed,this is where this market is going.........

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,

I know Costco does offer the Roomba 550 online but I have not seen it at my local store.  Again, this is not unsual for my Costco.  It's always a little of this, a little bit of that.  Their vacuum display is more an after thought than an actual sales promoting effort.  What I did notice is that that Electrolux toy -- the little stick vac -- is there on sale for $79.99 which is $20 below what it's been pushed for the last year or so.  I'm waiting for the day they finally sell it for the $29.99 it should have been going for in the first place.

Forgot to mention that Costco also sells upper liine Bosch canister online but I have yet to see it at my store.  Are stock decisions a judgement call by way of management store to store? I can accept someone feeling that certain prodcut may not right for their neck of the woods but a lot of people who shop there are not aware of Costco's online accessibility and may be missing out on any number of things they buy if they knew Costco had them.  If you put out just a couple of vacuums to be seen and I walk in, look but don't like them I go elsewhere to buy thinking that's all they had.

I went the other day to look for a decent irong board but there were none.  Turns out they only order them for my store periodically instead of keeping them on hand.

Best,

Venson

mole wrote:

Are you not a Dyson Dealer?  You talk as if you are insulated from Dyson's legal arm.

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

You're right.  Ironically, COSTCO customers average a yearly income of $70,000 plus, the highest of all the price club store venues.  It was also one of the retailers, like Wal*Mart, that fared better than most during the holiday season and with January sales.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

The COSTCO stores here in North Las Vegas have the full line of the iRobots and the newest 500.  Huge displays for the Roombas.  The Lux Pronto you mentioned and several others you mentioned.  The Bosch vacuums are not in the stores (YET) but available on line.  Dyson is not listed on the COSTCO Web site under vacuums and floorcare.  

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

I told that to the HOOVER Branch Manager and Hoover sales rep [the Saltez brothers] in the late 50's when I threw both out of my store literally.  I was an authorized HOOVER sales and service dealer at the time for several years.  Those were the days when HOOVER reigned supreme.  Business was fine without new HOOVER's for several years.  I took in the Westinghouse line.  Then, a new HOOVER Branch Manager took over, Lou Ludivico, and he talked me back into carrying the HOOVER line and I soon became a warranty dealer for HOOVER.  And was for many years.  

The indys don't need the vacuum makers as much as the vacuum makers need the indys. 

Carmine D.

Multi-billionaires need two-faced bad mouthing authorized dealer/repair men?   Hardly!  Indies, aka (typically) small time Mom and Pops need to do what they do best, sell and fix vacuum cleaners.  Taking on billion dollar corporations openly and publicly is nothing short of reckless.        DIB

mole wrote:
Now there would have to be a reason for that to happen.  Does Dyson not treat its dealers well?  I am not in the business and have no idea so I'm hoping someone will give me some insight.  The Dyson dealers I have talked to have not had any complaints yet.

Even with the worst-case scenario of Dysons being supposedly "unreliable" (which they aren't), the independent would still be making quite a bit on repairs, would they not?

Hello Mole:

I would be a dyson dealer just for the parts so I could do the repairs.  I'd only sell one if a customer insisted on buying one.  Dyson probably would have a problem with that and wouldn't sell me parts.  Which is fine.  Too many better and affordable vacuum products on the market to kow tow to one mediocre vacuum maker.

Like HOOVER in the 60's, dyson sold out to the big box retailers in the USA at the expense of the indy's.  Why?  Dyson wants to sell high priced vacuums through big box retailers.  Not through the local vacuum store indy's.  What happened to all the special indy dyson models that would allow you to sell and compete with the big dogs for dyson sales?  Who has them?  Who advertises them?  What happened to the dyson MAP of 10 percent?  Bed Bath and Beyond and Linens-n-Things take off 20 percent regularly.  What does dyson do about it? 

The industry [read big box retail sales] are in a recession now.  High priced vacuums are gathering dust on shelves.  Retailers can't give them away.  COSTCO [with several exclusive dyson models over the years] and HOME DEPOT are looking to drop the dyson line for now at least from their store shelves.  Will other retailers follow suit as the recession gains strength [which the gurus say it is poised to do]? 

The local indy's, who sell dyson parts and do dyson repairs to keep the dyson customers satisfied [clean up the mess as you like to say MOLE], are in the cat bird seat.  What happens if  vacuum indy's like you tell dyson customers to go elsewhere for dyson parts and repairs?  Especially if you didn't make the dyson sales.  How long will the dyson vacuum reliability ratings be good?  Dysons may become collectables, if they are still working properly.  I recall another bagless vacuum called Fantom???  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I see you are back on your soap box.  How many times have you already fallen off?                                                                                                                                                                                   We know that independents can't survive on sales alone and you want us to believe that ALL BUT DYSON are rarely repaired.  Again I ask.  How have so many independents survived without repairing Dysons?

Hi Carmine,HARDSELL, would you like to know how many dyson dc07,14, hoses we sell a week,it's the the most popular item in our shops,and quess what we dont even get them from DYSON, anything else you want to know...........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Yes,  the answer to my original question.  Should I assume from your response that Dyson hose sales is so profitable that it keeps you in business ? 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hi DIB, just let dyson try and shut us down,they tried,if they try it again we will sue them and win..........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hi Mole:

As I recall, Which? in the UK and Europe also reports that the majority of the problems with all the early dyson uprights stem from hose breakage.  I believe Which reports 25 percent of the dyson repairs are hose related.  Interesting since these models are less than 6 years old.  Probably the reason that retailers are scrubbing the DC07 and DC14 from the dyson line.  Future collectables. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,you know it makes me wonder how they got that rating on reliability in C.R, I wonder who was doing the ratings,OH i know they glommed the reports with positive ratings,just like they flooded the reviews in other magazines and on line reviews,How much would it take to buy you off to give dyson a good report,I believe i already know your answer'', ITS THE LAST HURRAH.............

respectfully.

MOLE

Hello Mole:

WRT the Consumer Reports reliability ratings:  The caveat from CR in the March 2008 data is that differences of less than 3 points are not meaningful.  Kirby (4) and dyson (6) are the same.  That may be accurate from the results of this particular survey, but I can't accept that the survey results are indicative of the universe [all Kirbys and dysons in use between 2003 and 2007]. 

Similarly, dyson (6), Eureka (7), Bissell (8), Dirt Devil (8), and SEARS (8) are all the same for reliability.  When you put dyson in that group of vacuum brands and frame of reference, the survey results are probably more indicative of the universe. 

CR says the data are based on 4 years [2003-2007] of repairs for 135,000 reader responses.  CR does not indicate the level of probability that the survey [135,000] is representative of the entire universe [all vacuums repaired in the time period]  Generally, when data is presented from a sample [like this one by CR] the sample source gives the probability of the level of accuracy with a +/- percentage of error that the sample truly represents the universe.  CR doesn't.  Most will say that in the absence of this level of probability the CR ratings are meaningless.

Newer brands and models would fare better because they are less likely to be repaired as brands and models that are seasoned and aging.  The former less repair prone, while the latter are more repair prone.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Back again to you, Mole:

In your expert opinion, would you say that the replacement hoses you use on the dyson repairs are as good as, better than and/or worse than the original dyson hose?

My sense is the only official recourse dyson has if they dislike your attitude and practices concerning dyson, is to disenfranchise you as a dealer.   This has consequences for both parties: dyson and you.  I suspect it won't affect your business very much because you will still repair dysons since you have other avenues for parts than original dyson equipment.  On the other hand, dyson will lose a dealer who knows how to service dyson both in and out of warranty.  

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

What is your purpose in using Mole's response about the hose in all of your replies?  Your attempt at intimidation is useless and you can't answer my original question.  BTW for all the others.  My question has stumped Carmine for 3 years and now Mole is unable to answer.     

I hope that Dyson does not go under if Mole parts with them.  I remember how you pulled away from Hoover and 50 some years later they were out of business.

Is there a difference in servicing a vacuum in warranty vs out of warranty.  I think I cna answer my own question.  You have to be more honest with the manufacturer than with the comsumer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

CarmineD wrote:

You have reported for years that retailers were pulling Dyson off end caps and out of stores.  It never happened.  Any more ridiculous predictions.

Did you also predict that the Fusion and "Z" would be the demise of Dyson?  Who is still standing? 

A hint.  It ain't the hoover.

Hello My Old Friend Hardsell:

The HOOVER Fusion, one of Wal*Mart's most popular sellers, and the FUSION Plus, one of Sam's Club best sellers, have been superceded [read redesigned] by the HOOVER Mach's which come in several models ranging in price from $100 to $160 and available at most retailers currently.  And selling quite well. 

The HOOVER Z, much too expensive for today's big box retail stores' venue, is an integral part of the HOOVER line up and available for sale from HOOVER stores and on-line.  The HOOVER Z has more patents pending than any other vacuums past and/or present: i.e, the digiTouch control pad for rug height adjustment, on/off, automatic hard surface cleaning, and diagnostic indicators; Z fold design; self-cleaning HEPA filter; no belts, bulbs, bags/filters to replace ever; and microban coating to prevent bacteria and mold.  To name some.

Carmine D.

PS: the HOOVER Z also has a soft brush setting to avoid degrading sensitive carpeting.  Does the dyson DC17 have such a feature?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

The Fusion is a decent vacuum for the price.  Still can't match the Dyson DC07.

All those patents pending on a Vacuum that is selling at distress prices.  Why haven't you ever told us about that?

It is worth noting that the sole reason the Z (and other long-since-discontinued Hoover models) still remains on the Hoover website is because TTI apparently has no interest in updating the pages.  I've noticed this with the Maytag page as well.

Just out of interest how many patent pendings does the Hoover Z actually have?

DC18

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello Good Friend:

The shortcomings of the Z have been exhaustively discussed here.  Too heavy.  Too expensive for big box store sales venue.  Bad market and industry timing.  The Z was launched in the midst of the Whirlpool buy out of Maytag knowing full well that HOOVER would be spun off/sold off.  

The FUSION for $90-$120 filled the void left by the dyson DC07 when Wal*Mart scrubbed the line.  Sales for the FUSION exceeded expectations and had a successful 2 plus years run at Wal*Mart stores.  So well in fact that a similar model was made and sold by Sam's Stores as a FUSION Plus for $120-$130.  The HOOVER Mach models superceded the FUSION and are not only in Wal*Mart and Sam Club stores NOW but also other retailers.  Why?  FUSION paved the way with several years of successful sales. 

The dyson DC07 [both the All Carpet for $359 and the Original for $378] couldn't match the success of the sales of the FUSION and Mach in these stores' venues.  And like the HOOVER Z the All Carpet was sold at distressed prices by Wal*Mart stores and probably the dyson DC 07 ORIGINAL will be soon too.

Carmine D. 

BTW, I personally thought the DC07 All Carpet was the best of the 07 dyson models.  Why?  No gawdawful ratcheting noise because it did not [the model is no longer made] have a clutch to stop the brushbar.  At $329 it was probably the best dyson value.  I could have bought one new in a box for $50 when Wal*Mart stores were selling them out.  I turned it down.  Probably a mistake.  It will be a desirable dyson collectable soon if not already. 

Carmine D.

PS:  I have not seen dysons on end cap positions at retailers for months.  I presume dyson no longer wants to pay for the privilege to be displayed in the prime retail space.

Carmine D.

PS:

Talking about distressed vacuum prices, I mentioned to you in a private email a long time ago, that the BEST BUY store in Woodbridge VA offered me the entire inventory of new Electrolux models for 20 percent on the dollar.  When?  Spring of 2006.  At the time Matt mmc now Airblade commented that dyson had bested the Electrolux line at Best Buy which was dropping the line.  I told you I couldn't accept the deal because we were planning a move to Las Vegas in the summer 2006.

I also posted on another Forum [in which you participated] in September 2006 after the Electrolux models scored so well in the the Consumer Reports ratings, that BEST BUY stores would soon be selling them again.   By the 2006 Holiday season, BEST BUY was and still is.  In the same year, the line went from extinction to distinction and has stayed there.

Carmine D. 

PS:

Contrary to some statements here, the HOOVER Z will not be discontinued by TTI unless and until all pending patents are approved.  At last notice, some patents are still under review and others in use by HOOVER/TTI on new models

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL, what question are you looking for an answer to.No selling parts in just extra income,the money is in selling refurbed dysons,the ones we buy for almost nothing from sources we have contacts with.Sometimes we even get a few dc15 $#%*. You know the one that failed to sell in the fancy high priced retailers.Which leads me to a question for you how come dyson did not give these retailers a full credit refund for the dysons that have been sitting in stock for over 6 months.

Hi Carmine these are oem dyson hoses,There is no bojack stuff yet, the second most popular item is the clutch and belt kit,we sell them at 50% off dysons price.

Would you like to sell them for us also.You can be the left coast parts center.......

MOLE

mole wrote:

OEM, interesting. 

Ironic you should ask.  An indy here in North Las Vegas has made me an offer to repair and refurb just dysons for his store. 

He just recently took in the dyson line for the parts and repairs and to refurb all the trades and abandoned dyson repairs.  

I visit him from time to time.  He keeps asking me.  The owner is a friend and church

member in the same church as my daughter and son-in-law.  I'm mulling it over. 

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

This is my original post :

We know that independents can't survive on sales alone and you want us to believe that ALL BUT DYSON are rarely repaired.  Again I ask. 

How have so many independents survived without repairing Dysons?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not in the vacuum business so I can't answer your question.  I have no concern with the business end.  I simply tire of reading all the negativity and lies about Dyson. 

CarmineD wrote:
Hi all. Just thought I'd throw this out there. I went to Target this past weekend and there is a new Hoover sitting on the shelf for $199.99. It is called "Windtunnel + Cyclonic" which looks exactly like the Mach 5 but, as the name suggests, it has the windtunnel feature now.

MrApollinax wrote:

Hello Mr. Apollinax:

This WT model is post TTI takeover of Maytag.  Also slightly more expensive

than the Mach's.  TARGET is advertising it this week too.  Most other retailers

have the WT Cyclonic too [i.e. SEARS, Kohls, etc.].  WT model is widely known

and TTI wants to capitalize on it.  If I'm not mistaken too, it has one/more of the

features from the HOOVER Z.  But I don't know the specifics and may be wrong.

Consumer Reports did not include in its latest testing and reporting.  Probably

due to its newness.  I expect it will in October if not sooner in a short special

review. 

Carmine D.

MrApollinax wrote:
This is not real new, because it has been at other retailers for a while now.  Best Buy was the first big box, I believe.

 

I had figured that it wasn't very new. I had posted it to add on to Carmine's post of Hoover adding onto the line of vacs he was talking about: Fusion --> Mach --> WT + Cyclonic.

HARDSELL wrote:

Thank you.  DIB

HOME DEPOT had a deal with Maytag/HOOVER

for an exclusive Fusion model called the

Legacy.  Ironically, as much negative commentary

that the FUSION and Legacy bagless uprights

received from bagless vacuum experts and by Consumer

Reports, the sales were always off the charts.

People liked the price and performance.  Two more HOOVER

upright bagless models which were kow towed by the experts

are the HOOVER EmPower and Elite Rewind.  The former

has been a staple among vacuum sales by many retailers

since 2002.  The latter which started out in BEST BUY has made

the rounds to most retailers too.  And now bears the Legacy

name at HOME DEPOT. 

BTW, I gifted a new HOOVER Elite Rewind which I purchased

at COSTCO for $89 as a Christmas gift to a newlywed couple

in Utah.  They love it.  The COSTCO store staff in N. Las Vegas

tell me it has been a huge selling success.

Carmine D.

While much is written about the HOOVER Tempo

as a stand out performer for the price, the HOOVER EmPower

Consumer Report ratings are never mentioned.

Selling between $59 and $100, the EmPower came in 14th

overall in March 2008.  Handily [read by large margins] beating out among

others: dyson DC14, DC07, DC15, and DC18.  Vacuums costing

a whole lot more than the EmPower.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Why not name them all?   We all know that Dyson is struck in your throat.  Whatever they did to you, get over it. Life must be miserable for you because you never got to sell the best.

BTW,  thanks for making Dyson the standard to beat.

CR has a tendency to place price above performance.  Any intelligent person knows that value for the price does not mean best performance.  If I need to remind you the Taurus would be the best auto in the world using your and CR's thinking.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello My Good Friend:

Too many to name and since dyson gets all the attention here on most threads I like to use it as a comparison.  Especially when discussing less expensive and more affordable big box retailer vacuums that compete well against dyson.   One such brand to mention that has florished as a result of the launch of dyson is BISSELL.  As a bagged vacuum maker, it had a long history of very non-descript sales bested by Dirt Devil, Shark, and other budget brands.  And was even considered unworthy by comparison.  No more.

With the bagless fad and trend among budget conscious vacuum buyers [read big box retail customers] BISSELL has seen an upsurge in recent years in sales and user popularity.  Certainly a staple among all the big box retailers.  Why?  Price and performance.  BISSELL provides both which appeal to the vacuum buying consumers in the USA who shop the big box retailers for their floorcare needs.  BISSELL fares very well in the Consumer Reports ratings and rankings too.  At the expense of dyson, unfortunately which is your favorite brand of vacuum.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

So if your not in the vacuum business,like DIB,MOTORHEAD, why should anyone listen to you about the business,that you know nothing about.

Do you work for dysons marketing department? And if you do i feel bad for you...............

MOLE

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello Good Friend:

Thought you might like to read what consumers think about the HOOVER EmPower.  Many of the other retailers' reviews are very similar.  Pretty good for a $89 performer that's been around for as long as your beloved dyson.

http://www.epinions.com/pr-Hoover_U5262-900_Upright_Vacuum/display_~reviews

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:
Hardsell,

Could you elaborate on your comment that "CR has a tendency to place price above performance?"  I believe your comment is somewhat misleading.   I believe that CR is very careful to keep price out of the testing.  It is only in the commentary that CR mentions whether performance in their tests is in any way related to price. 

That said, there are limits to what is tested by CR.  They don't evaluate, for example, the quantity, quality, or usefulness of attachments.  They don't evaluate how easy/messy it is to empty the dirt container on bagless vacs.   They don't evaluate design features, with the exception of commenting on those that are absolutely terrible.  Eureka does not get any extra credit for the feather duster in its spin away vacuum.  Kirby doesn't get any credit for the shampooer and knife sharpening attachments.  Rainbow gets no credit for use as a mop, carpet cleaner, or air cleaner.   CR does not comment on the design of brush rolls.   CR does not comment on how nice the vacuum looks on display in your living room either.  CR does not test on every possible carpet type.

While you are correct that CR does not take into account every possible feature that might be important to individual users, the test results are valid and repeatable, and do not in any way take price into account. 

mole wrote:

I am in no way affiliated with the vacuum business.  I have no personal vendettas like the professionals that have have been so negatively affected by Dyson.  I am not biased because I have nothing to gain regardless of what happens in the industry.

All I can offer is honesty based on my experience with using various brands of vacuums.  One does not need to be a technical guru or repairman to know when something is performing.  If my clothes are not drying I know that something is wrong with my clothes dryer.  If my car stalls I know that something is wrong.

I know that a Corvette is faster than an Impala and yet I am not a car mechanic.

Your inability or refusal to answer my question certainly gives me reason not to believe you and others who have been asked the question.

mole wrote:

As a person who has both, Graphic Design/Marketing and Vacuum experience I disagree with you that you suggest Dyson has poor marketing. The visual design of their machines, packaging, sales material and advertising is some of the BEST in ANY company. I also feel it is THE primary reason it has done as well in the marketplace as it has.

HARDSELL wrote:

I will make one more effort to answer your question,there are not many indy's left,the reason being is that these owners have no  BACKGROUND in the business.

In other words the carrott was dangeled in front of them by the COMPANY they chose to represent. After 2 or 3 years they found out that they only made money for the company,and they were left holding the bag[no pun].It seems like these companies get off by ruining people.

YOU CAN TAKE THAT AS THE TRUTH....

been there done that.NOW it's my turn..............

MOLE

Lucky1 wrote:

Have you seen the latest dyson TV commercial?  I suspect it

aired here in LAs Vegas due to the VDTA.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Well my good friend, if you believe that you are not biased

and have nothing to gain, I will say you are as wrong as you can be.

You bought the worse performing and rated dyson [DC07] at full price

with a 2 year warranty.  I'm sure you heard the old adage in the auto

industry that one should never buy a vehicle in the first year.  Why?

Takes time to work out the kinks and glitches.  Most here even dyson

fans kow tow the DC07 as the worse.  And the model is being discontinued.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You do not know the whole story.  I sold the DC07 after 3 years (big mistake).  I presently own the Royal and a Kirby Sentria.   The DC07 is still the best in my humble opinion.

I tried a DC14 and the 07 is defininitely a better vacuum.   I doubt the DC07 is being discontinued because of poor performance.  Just like in the auto industry, change is inevitable even if not for the better.

Now where is the bias or gain.  You had a bad experience with Dyson and I with other brands.  Please tell me why your problem is worse than mine or anyone else's.

Oh, I almost forgot.  Dyson put you and so many others down. 

mole wrote:

MOLE,  we agree on one thing.  Corporate America is out to screw all.

Now lets go back in time before Dyson.  My point is that those owners with the BACKGROUND as you say profited from repairs more than from sales.  Dyson was not invented, however there was no shortage of vacuum repairs to be made.  Now in more modern times we have Dyson and no indy has profited enough to stay in business solely on Dyson sales or repairs. 

You can't be referring to Dyson when you say the COMPANY because you have already established that the owners were ignorant of the business.  I wonder how many reading here are in this group.   I think 2 at least.  You pick them.

Did I tell you that I like Dyson?

Hello Good Friend:

I remind you again that after my experience with the dyson, my dear Wife and I attended a floor care session presented by our builder and the floor and rug sub contractor.  There were about 30 residents in attendance.  Some like me who bought and used dysons.  All complained pretty much with the same problem I had.  You know the rest.  But here it is again. We and all other home buyers are warned not to use dysons on our carpets.  Why?  Won't work. 

You know the reason.  There is no height adjustment on the dyson DC07.  And it has a weighted down rug nozzle head.  The combination of the two causes the the dyson to sink into many USA carpets.  Worse than being hard to push and pull over the carpet is the gawdawful ratcheting noise due to the clutch.  Which dyson discontinued on later models [and one of the reasons that the DC07 and DC14 are being discontinued].  Why? Not made for US rugs save low, smooth pile similiar to European rugs. 

That's why you are biased.  You presume that if one lone dyson is excellent in your particular application it must be for all.  It is not.  What do you have to gain?  Trying not to look like a total dummie when others, including seasoned professionals, and Consumer Reports and a major carpet manufacturer [which will not warranty its carpets with dyson vacuums] tell you why your dyson case is not representative of all.

Carmine D.

BTW, Venson eloquently and wisely made this point [see my last post and paragraph] to all on the thread on Lightweights.  If you missed it, here it is again.  You should read it again.

Carmine D.

Lucky1 wrote:
The belief, hard work, tenacity, discoveries, science, and inventions that are championed into commercialized products from James Dyson, his fellow inventors and his support team/s compliments the designs and marketing quite well. DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine I do believe that I have stated more than once that there is no absolute best of any consumer good.   I am not surprised that you did not comprehend when I said it.

CarmineD wrote:

And you think that one isolated failure in your home on carpet that is not prevalent in most homes Makes Dyson a failure.  Get real your biased moron. 

HARDSELL wrote:

My good man:

A community with over 3,000 new homes and a leading [read major] rug manufacturer are hardly considered an isolated biased opinion except to a moron.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Good man:

I don't believe you have ever said that in conjunction with an Oreck, HOOVER, BISSELL and any other brand save dyson.  However, as a gentleman, I will give you the benefit of the doubt rather than asking you to provide a link for proof.

Carmine D.

The only reason Dyson vacuums are not Carpet & Rug Institute certified is simply because Dyson hasn't paid the CRI to endorse them!  If Dyson wanted to become certified by the CRI, they could do so very easily, however, Dyson has done well with word of mouth so they have not needed that paid endorsement.  Hoover and Oreck's sales have no doubt been affected by the Dyson's presence (and not in a positive way), so they need that added "advantage" so to speak. 

Carmine, I have noticed that you constantly say things about the Dyson that are not true, and then repeat them ad nauseum until you think people believe them.   An example is your continual reference to the DC07 as having been "discontinued'; it is not.  What it is in fact is Dyson's best selling current upright; more DC07s are sold than any other model.  Not only is it Dyson's lowest priced machine, it is the model that built Dyson's priceless reputation.  Many times you have said that Wal-Mart has "scrubbed" the Dyson from their shelves...once again, they have not.  The DC07 Original is a current Wal-Mart-exclusive model and sells for $379, $20 less than the DC07 All Floors sold at other retailers. 

You also seem to take great delight in a scare tactic that I call lying to the consumer.  You have made reference to a clutch change in a Dyson costing $130 at a vacuum shop.  According to more than one Dyson dealer I've talked to, the wholesale (not retail) cost of the clutch assembly (including the 2 belts) is $19.36.  There are three screws involved in the replacement of the clutch.  Most vac shops do not realize that the clutch rarely needs to be replaced, but the belt from the clutch to the motor is replaceable and can be accomplished in less than 5 minutes.  To charge a customer $130 to replace a $19 part is exactly what's wrong with vacuum shops today.  They themselves are putting themselves out of business, and yet you take great delight in reporting it even though you claim to be a "champion" of the vac shop and an "industry insider".  It infuriates me when you repeat something that's not true, just to convince yourself and other people that it is.  After all, according to what I've read here, you also "championed" the absolute worst (in my opinion) bagless upright vacuum ever made, the Eureka Whirlwind divided-cup upright.  Which, by the way, is not the first cyclonic machine (if you can even call it that; it really is only a single-cyclone machine with a clogging filter)...the Fantom company holds that distinction.  If you gave those horrid machines (and even that is understating it) away to your friends, you must not have cared for them.  That's like giving someone a Regina Housekeeper, or an Oreck.

Never forget that the outstanding performance of the DC07 built and continues to build Dyson's reputation today.  It doesn't matter what Consumer Reports says, it doesn't matter what some vac shop owner says, it doesn't matter what the Carpet and Rug Institute says.  When it comes down to it, who are you going to believe if you are a consumer?  A vac shop owner, or your sister who owns the machine and brags about it nonstop?  That's what makes the Dyson different...people actually brag about it!  No one has ever sworn by their Hoover Tempo, though they might swear *at* it (as I have heard). 

By the way, I can just imagine how exciting the meeting you had with the carpet people and 30 homeowners who have nothing better to do than to sit in a room discussing how you are going to vacuum your carpets!  It must have been a thrill a minute!  I can hardly believe there were 30 people who had so much extra time to throw away on something as pointless as that...no wonder there's something wrong with the housing market today.  Speaking of which, I also called Mohawk Carpets today.  The use of a Dyson on Mohawk carpet will not void the warranty. 

As I always say, my 2 cents!

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

MH:

THis is an old [read out-of date] argument that a fine fellow Jim B made years ago on a now defunct Forum.  Long before dyson was raked over the coals for making false claims about "never clogs, never loses suction."  Both of which are no longer used by retailers.

Do you have any new arguments and/or endorsements to make for dyson performance and operation besides word of mouth? 

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

MH:

That's certainly more than 2 cents worth.  But I appreciate the response on behalf of your favorite brand dyson and my dear friend HARDSELL. 

Let me deal first and now with the part I excerpted only:

Mohawk is not the carpet maker.  It is my home carpet maker.  Other home buyers may have chosen other brands.  Amenities on the homes like flooring and carpeting are customized according to the home buyers [at least when I bought].  I can provide you the carpet maker which voids its warranty if dysons are used, if you like.  And you can call/research.  It is very well known.  If fact, the good gentleman I quoted in my above post, Jim B., is well aware of the fact and will corroborate it.

The purpose of these monthly builder-contractor meetings [the one my dear Wife and I attended was September 20, 2006 about 3 weeks after purchasing the DC07 pink] is to educate buyers and residents on the new homes [which range now with the depressed housing market for $250,000 to $450,000 plus] about the best  products and ways to prolong the life and usage of their homes.  And ensure the homes are maintained properly and keep their value.  The meetings are still ongoing.  So the messages are repeated in each session.  Floors and rugs are an integral part of the value of the homes.  The builder and the sub contractor warn, and continue to, against the use of dysons on the rugs. 

I will address other points which I take issues in future posts as the time and space permits.

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

I said the DC07 and DC14 "will be" discontinued.  NOT "is."  Why?  The clutch in part.  The weak brush roll.  And the undeniable fact that it was designed for European carpets not USA carpets.

Which reminds me.  The DC07 All Carpets, a Wal*Mart exclusive, WAS discontinued.  After a lackluster sales record with Wal*Mart.  It is the best of all the DC07 dysons IMHO.  Why?  No clutch issue on USA carpets.  Dyson made a fatal product error by discontinuing it.  At $359 and with a 5 year warranty it would have sold much better than the existing DC07 models on the market, all of which will be discontinued as the retailers sell out and clear out.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

My good friend:

If you are afraid to write a review on the Royal Eminence, maybe you have courage to answer me this question.  As one who criticized the performance of the HOOVER WindTuinnel, HOOVER Fusion, Oreck XL21, and BISSELL Healthy Home, why would you sell the only vacuum that you ever praised as THE EXCELLENT ONE?  I can understand to buy the latest and greatest in the same brand, save that then why?  [I know it was a big mistake].

CArmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Again, to correct you:  I said that the Eureka Whirlwind was the first UPRIGHT cyclonic vacuum to USE the moniker.  Go back and check my post.  Or do I have to find it and post it for you?

Wow, I'm tired already.  I'll get to the other points in due time. 

But would rather deal with CR and vacuum related issues.  Like why if the DC07 is the signature vacuum for dyson as you claim, and its best seller, it could never manage to get into the top tier of the CR ratings like the DC17?  Not even a respectable honorable mention? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Tryin to twist again.  Actually your comment is senseless.

To say that there is no absolute best would be inclusive of all brands.  Now, if I had said that there is definitely an absolute worst then I may have included a couple of those you mention. 

HARDSELL wrote:

My good friend:

Factor in the price for the vacuum, and my vote would be for your fave brand as the worse of all. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

The Dyson claims were meant for intelligent people, not an idiot who would try to use it as a leaf vacuum or some other off the wall use.  Desperate companies often go to any means to destroy competition.  They used such examples to say that the Dyson clogs. Sadly the law all too often sides with them.  Even sadder is an old has been who loves these scenarios try and support his hate for something that kicked his a$$.   Hoover should be required to post on their bagless machines.  "The filter screen on this vacuum will almost immediately clog with use resulting in poor performance". "You should have another vacuum to assist with cleaning the screen and pleated filter".

Word of mouth is about the best endorsement a product can receive.  Remember the old addage that people will talk about a bad product and seldom mention a good one.  The ones who have been shamed by Dyson do a lot of lying and bashing.  The average consumer has only the highest praise for Dyson. 

Motorhead wrote:

I listen and read all the input:  Vacuum store owners, industry experts,  and professionals; consumers who rate HOOVER TEMPO the best upright;  Consumer Reports who rates it consistently in the top 10; and my dear sister who owns and uses a HOOVER TEMPO which I gifted to her over 3 years ago.  She loves it.  It is her only full size vacuum in a 3 story home.  I believe the facts, not hearsay [word of mouth as you say].

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

My friend:

I'm more interested in the above average consumers!   Average consumers settle for mediocrity.  Perhaps the reason they like dysons.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Dyson is alive and well on WM site.  More 5 *'s than Hoover.

What do you smoke?

CarmineD wrote:

You only listen to the facts that support your arguments.  Likewise, you only report those same types.

CarmineD wrote:

With all  the time that you spend in WM how do you find an above average shopper?

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,  I am neither a writer nor a reviewer.  I am simply a cosumer who hates deception and half truths.  If I choose to write a review I will  it wil be confined to the merits and faults of the vacuum as I see them.  I will not use it as an opportunity to bash other brands as you do.  Really does not take courage to participate here.  You just need tolerence and patience.

My opinion of the vacuums that  I returned have not changed.  What in the he** does that have to do with not currently owning a Dyson?  I sold the Dyson because I wanted to and because I could. BTW, I only said that I liked the DC07 better than the Bissell.  Only you would try to twist that into criticism.

 Now the real reason is that I wanted to try other brands as I did prior to buying the Dyson.  I kept the Dyson simply because I felt that it outperformed the others (including those that I tried after buying the Dyson).  The latest is not always the greatest.  You should know that since you are a big H fan.   I would as soon have the DC07 as any of the latest Dysons.

The Royal is a very good vacuum for carpets.  It fails on hard floors.  Dyson is still better for my use.

O.K. you asked for it.

dyr-7500 clutch upright dc04/14 dealer cost29.95. no belts.

dyr-6000 motor dc07-dc14, cost26.95.

dyr-1075 geared belt dc17 animal. cost 1.89.

dyr-2005 b-roll with out clutch system dc04/07/14. 11.50 cost.

So please explain to me again what makes dyson think  it's cleaners are worth the asking price.

These guy's are playing the public for SUCKERS.And we sell their parts................

MOLE     

Hi Mole,

Thanks for supplying the pricing information.  Does Dyson dictate the price between vendor/repair person and the customer?

Thanks,

Venson

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

Mole is giving you pricing information for *bojack* Dyson parts.  Genuine Dyson parts are sold only to independent Dyson dealers.  Any part number that starts out DYR means Dyson Replacement or non-genuine Dyson parts.  For example, a genuine Dyson clutch costs $19.36 and has 2 belts included.  Mole is selling non-genuine parts, and yet if you think he's telling customers that the new clutch he put on their DC07 is bojack, you're mistaken.  The lies and jealousy among "industry insiders" is staggering.  Dyson does not supply retail prices to their independent service centers.  They do not even have suggested repair costs.  Independent Dyson dealers are free to set their own repair costs.  ESSCO had a line of bojack Dyson parts made up (in China of course) because Dyson will not sell genuine repair parts to wholesalers, only to *authorized* independent service centers.  I have heard this from a number of sources. 

I feel sorry for the customer who goes into Mole's repair shop and is told they are being sold genuine Dyson parts when they are not.

-MH

Carmine, once again, Consumer Reports does not make one bit of difference.  No one will believe what the magazine says as opposed to what their friend who owns the machine says.  Consumer Reports is not a valid testing organization.  What they are is a communist front organization more suited for Red China than for the United States.  Despite the lies from CR, the DC07 is still enjoying enormous popularity due to simple word of mouth.  Again, if you are a consumer who needs a new vacuum, who are you going to believe, a magazine or your friend?

What all of this has proven to me is that no other manufacturer can buy Dyson's popularity for *any* amount of money, which is precisely what is killing Hoover (and caused the TTI buyout no less).  And also the reason a lot of people despise the Dyson and will do anything they can to bash it...

Motorhead wrote:

You mention the parts cost over the counter.  What are the parts including the labor to replace?  Several dyson posters [Jim B and Tom Gasko] both authorized dyson dealers, posted the $135 clutch replacement cost several years ago.  How much is it now?  Both bragged about their windfall profits from dyson sales and service.  The former saying dyson sales pay his mortgage, the latter saying dyson repairs will allow him a cushy retirement.  Are these fine gentlemen friends of yours? 

If dyson owners take their dysons to authorized vacuum repair stores, the prices for the repairs should be standard and policed by dyson to avoid fraud and abuse.  If the customers are overcharged, then dyson/authorized dealers are fault not ALL vacuum store independents. 

If customers take their dysons to non-authorized dyson dealers, then they have to accept the risks/rewards that go with their decisions.

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

I responded to all your allegations. 

I will agree with you on one:  After all is said and done It was only worth 2 cents.

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

What are the differences between the main line Chinese made dyson replacement parts and the malaysian [read south east China] genuine dyson parts save the name printed on the latter?

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Shades of Tom Gasko and his Communist Reports moniker for CR. 

BTW, the latest Consumer Reports edition is the annual auto magazine.  Did you get yours yet?  You mentioned that you are a subscriber and have been for a number of years.

Like I said, I believe the facts after receiving and reading all the input.  Including my dear sister who loves her 3 year old plus HOOVER Tempo.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

My friend:

I am not avoiding you, just responding to Tom Gasko and Jim B.  Or whoever they are now on this Forum.

On a scale from 1 to 10, 5 is below average.

I am a non-smoker.  Never took up the nasty filthy habit.  One of the reasons I am enjoying a long life I'm sure much to the chagrin of many dyson fans who thought I would be dead before dyson. 

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

In your haste to inform the  public about the replacement parts being BOJACK,these parts are licensed by dyson to be manufactured,distributed, and installed in dyson products and carry the same warranty criteria.These parts are the same in every way except for name stamped on them, and maybe the color.Shall we talk about where the filters come from.B.T.W. the average consumer can figure out that if an authorized dealer is servicing their machine they charge dealer prices,and labor charges.

What do your vacuum store buddies charge for a non authorized,bojack ,china made replacement motor for a miele red star?You and i both know these are made in the same factory by the same people. ESSCO and BUCKEYE still have the dyson parts in stock,and probally have more parts than all the dyson dealers in the country put together.

Hello Venson, P.M me and ill run through the whole thing for you.

MOLE

p.s. fat  kids are harder to kidnap....................

CarmineD wrote:

In post # 135 you tried to lead this moron ot believe that 3000 homes in your community had carpet like yours.  Now you tell us that others hav echosen a different carpet.

There has never been any doubt that you lie to suit your argument.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,do you really believe that the bojack parts are different from the oem parts,you know better they are the same pieces,

Heres a little inside info you, how come genuine kirby bags say made in proc on the bag with the genuine kirby trademark.......

mole

Motorhead wrote:

How do you know what we tell our customers? Did you ever work here?.Does Andy let you wait on the customers anymore?[Oh I know yourNOT in the vacuum business are you].WHOS LYING NOW TOM.

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
When was the last time you heard a hotel or restaurant being rated 10 stars?  That's not how that system works, come on now.  5 stars is excellent.

Motorhead wrote:

How could 5 be below average?  It would depend on how many items are rated as a 5.

example:

10 items tested

5 are rated 5

2 are rated 7

1 is rated 2

2 are rated 3

5 is average

Of coures this does not fit into Carmine's deceitful thinking.

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

We know that in many instances the replacements are as good if not better than the genuine.  Why?  The vacuum parts makers and suppliers have to compete for the business.  How? With both price and quality.  You provided a good example, the Kirby bags.  In many cases, the makers for the genuine and replacement parts are the same.  Didn't Tom's signature dyson DC07 have a $59 panasonic motor for years?

Carmine D.