Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I was reading about the Clarence impeller improvement online today. It attaches a rubber gasket to each impeller blade ceiling it against impeller housing. Most who tried it seemed to report outstanding results especially with heavy wet snow. The only place where some reported it may not be effective were on units, such as the Honda, that reportedly have very tight clearances tween the impeller blades and the housing from the factory.

Ariens snowblowers are well-known for their high-capacity high capacity. Well most large snowblowers at 12 inch diameter impellers, the Ariens have 14 inch. That is over 16% faster speed at the end of the impeller blade. Does that give them a decisive edge?

So the question is: how important is the design of the impeller to the overall system performance? Are tight clearances between the impeller and it's housing critical? If so, which brands have the tightest ones? Is the diameter of the impeller critical? If so, did he Ariens and others with large impellers have a distinct advantage? The Clarence kit is inexpensive if you can install it yourself. Should everybody be installing these kits? TheToro has a unique impeller housing. Partially plastic, it has a return for excess snow to be returned to scoop. The effective Toro and edge or is it a disadvantage?

Toro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTAAaT_sFss

Think close of how a snowblower works. Take a regular 2 stage snowblower with a 12 in impeller. The auger grabs the snow and feeds it to the impeller. The impeller throws it out the shoot.   Now lets say you have a 14 in. impeller. The auger feeds it more snow because it has more area. The impeller being bigger also gives the snow more speed when exiting into and out the shoot. This in turn gives you more throwing distance. With a bigger auger your engine has to work harder -thus you need more torque to keep it from bogging down in heavy snow.
              A lot of  snowblower companies build there snowblowers with a good amount of space between the impeller and the housing. The bigger the space the poorer the snowblower can throw  snow out the shoot.  I believe they designed it that way to make it  cheaper to build. A great and ideal snowblower will be designed with very close clearances between the housing and impeller.

        Clarences kit  corects these wide spaces making your blower act like a real pump. What is fed from the auger gets thrown out.  By closing up the gaps with the kit, you are really making your auger larger thus giving more throwing distance.
     
  If you are buying a new blower  - check the clearances of different models. Remember this to help. If one snow blower has a 8 hp engine and the12 in. impeller clearances are tight. It will blow snow like 11- 13hp snow blower with poor clearances. If you find a 11-13 hp with a 14 in impeller with tight clearances that will be one King Kong machine. I know Honda has a 13 hp unit with tracks power steering remote control everything and throws 65 '. Honda HSM1336ic HYBRID. Check that one out on u tube.

           Honda is so exspensive because they build there machines with higher quality and  strict clearances. You see on u tube how well they throw snow.  In general manufactures are designing better machines than in the past as far as throwing snow is concerned. Better clearances than in the past. engines with more torque ect.
    
         Toro uses one of there own unique designs. With there design there clearances are not that close but the snow that the impeller misses gets redirected  into it. I here it works very well.

     I do not recommend putting Clarances kit on a new snowblower.  With his kit it has to brake in. When braking in it will burn the paint off the inside of your blower housing. The kit removes all clearances.  I'm sure you do not want to do that to a brand new machine. Folks that  use the kit have older machines are looking for cheap methods of improving there machines performance . That it does. That it does well.

Thank you for your response.

I don't see how the Toro design affects clearance issues. It works on the premise that the movement of the unit and auger will provide a continuious feed of snow and that's no that wasn't ejected because it was wet or heavy will slow down the rotation of the impeller, consume power from the motor, and potentially cause the impeller to be clogged as new snow is added.

The actual cost of making a tightfitting umbrella over a loosefitting one with modern manufacturing techniques is rather small. Honda, like Sony, is able to get a premium price because of a reputation formed many years ago largely in different markets. In snowblowers Honda maintains that price by limiting availability and distribution. It makes me wish Hyundai, which has left Honda way behind in automotive engineering, also made snowblowers. :-)

One thing I'd like to clear up is the relationship between torque, horsepower, and performance. Torque is a measure of the peak force applied; it is very important when it is the force between the tire and the pavement. When it is the output of the engine it only affects the strength of the gears needed to process it. Power is the measurement of how much force will be available at a given speed; geared to the same output speed and higher horsepower motor will always produce more torque on the output shaft. One reason Briggs & Stratton stop publishing horsepower numbers is because their lower speed engines (say compared to an overhead cam Subaru) produce less power for a given engine size and peak torque.

As he pointed out, a larger impeller opening will accept more snow. However, the amount of snow and how far it's thrown would be a function of not only the size but also the speed. It was only size that counted, trucks and SUVs would be the only vehicles that can run at highway speeds. However, there are no published data for the efficiency of the impeller or its rotational speed. There are no authoritative third-party tests. The best we can do appears to be reports from our peers on forums such as this one.

There are few reports about Honda machines on this forum. They do appear to have leverage tighter clearances for greater impeller efficiency. It is much harder to tell how it works overall; owners having paid a premium price and not having others new models for back-to-back comparisons, all looking for facts to support the wisdom of the decision not to tear it down.

Are honda's really overpriced though? They are expensive, but that is because they don't produce middle and lower grade snowblowers to appeal to budget minded buyers. They only produce snowblowers marketed towards people wanting top end professional grade.
I know I would take the honda hs1132 or hs928 over the ariens st32dlet or st28dlet any day and the pricing is not that much more.

The question to ask is:what makes them 'professional grade'? I think you would be hardpressed to define a Honda feature that needs them better than the professional models from Ariens or Simplicity. Some of the features on the high-end models are very inexpensive to implement; I got back hand warmers or a freewheel lever on the handlebars it's more than $20-$30 to cost the manufacture. However, a manufacturer usually finds the need to create clear features that distinguish their less expensive units from the more expensive units.

DavidNJ wrote:
Have you ever used one? It doesn't sound like you have.

I live in an area that gets hit hard with snow. Honda's are everywhere here and they are awesome machines! The best performance,quality and reliability in the business. Yamaha is the only thing that comes close.

Having said that, I will not be buying one. That is only because I can't afford it, but if you have the money and live in an area that gets enough snowfall to justify it, its well worth the money.

Well, Honda doesn't tout their snowblowers are professional grade.  They have no affiliation with GMC so no need to ride on the coat tails of that marketing effort.

What Honda does state is that it is commercial.  Here's a cut and paste from their website:

Commercial grade components

It's all about the details. Honda snowblowers are built to last.

Just look at our two-stage snowblowers. 

• Legendary Honda GX series commercial engines
• Commercial grade hydrostatic drive
• Durable metal chutes and auger housings
• Heavy duty bronze gear on the chute rotation rod
• Large ball bearing on our engine PTO
• Heavy duty auger gear drive, constructed of steel helical cut gears, supported by high quality ball bearings
• Low pressure tires on wheel models – no need for tire chains

The list goes on and on.  And unlike our competitors, we don’t skimp on our smaller models.  The HS724 has the same grade of components as our HS1132.

You can dispute that other brands may have thicker metal here and there that makes it more "tough" or "commercial".  But it's not just about weight and thickness, unless you're into abusing and ramrodding your precious equipment, but also intelligent use of design and material selection.  I would rate Honda first in this regard, followed closely behind by Toro, and then Simplicity/Deere.  However, in terms of user friendliness, the order changes significantly.  Toro leads first, then Simplicity/Deere, and Honda at somewhere near the bottom of all the other brands.  Combine Honda's engineering with Toro's user friedliness and you got an awesome machine. 

Forget about competing in prices so you can get into doors of Walmart, Home Depot, or Lowes.  At the present, I cannot say how Honda and Toro remain to sell their product at their prices, but they do.  Maybe they are focused and determined in their strategy.  You cannot find a Honda product cheaper in the big box stores, period.  Companies that produces premium products usually enforce price control and restrict or limit internet sales, which is very effective against brand erosion, and makes it attractive for dealers to carry their product. 

DavidNJ wrote:
I wouldn't say Huyndai left Honda way behind in automotive engineering.  Toyota yes, Honda no.

Trying not to stray off topic, but if Huyndai made snowblowers, I would have problem identifying what it is.  Their crooked H looks like a Honda emblem, and I'm pondering if the exterior styling is a Nissan, Lexus, or a Mercedes.  Take a look at the current Huyndai Sonata and Genesis.  I almost mistaken the Huyndai Genesis as a baby Bentley or an Aston Martin.  Both Sonata and Genesis are good cars in it's own right at a good price, or so the automotive Kool-Aid have brainwashed me, but both cars have an identity crisis.  Outlet malls and designer perfume knock offs comes to mind.

Okay, back on topic.  You go Huyndai !!!.  Honda could use some competition in the snowblower business.  :)  Just don't make it look like a HondAriensToroDeere.

aa335 wrote:
They call it commercial grade, ariens calls it professional grade, simplicity and toro probably put some other names on it, but thats besides the point. All I meant was that when comparing pricing, you have to compare the honda to other companies absolute top end models. Honda is still more, but the gap is far less and the honda is still the better machine. Sure the others might have some bells and whistles the honda doesn't have. But people don't buy them for bells and whistles, they buy them because they want the premium workhorse in snow removal.

Have you ever noticed that almost every snowblower "comparison" type posting uses Honda as the benchmark that all others are measured against? I guess that kind of tells the story right there... And oh yeah, you definitely have to try one in a real good storm to appreciate the engineering and build quality of a Honda snowblower. I'm not saying the others are not any good as I appreciate all OPE, it's just that Honda quality has always been top notch without any gimmicks or slogans, etc...

FrankMA wrote:

I don't recall anyone using Honda as a benchmark and have yet to see and objective report. The catalog never mentions steering and it appears the 'remote' shute control is twirling a crank an unknown number of turns.  http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/pdf/Brochures/snowblower_brochure.pdf

The engines are OHV not OHC, not that big, and of moderate performance: http://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gx270 . IMHO the Subaru snow motors have better designs and specs; can't comment on construction although technicians who I've talked to also say they are better.

The only thing that Honda seems to have is a focus on impeller speed:

1. "In addition to the flat paddle auger used to discharge snow on our single-stage snowblower, Honda two-stage snowblowers come equipped with a fast spinning impeller in the discharge duct that throws snow faster and farther."
2. "single lever accurately adjusts ground speed without affecting auger rotation speed."

How is this a superior machine?

DavidNJ wrote:
Honda does not have steering, fixed axle left to right wheels, none.  That's why they don't mention it.

The chute crank takes about 8 turns for full left right.  It is a worm gear at the end of a crank handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U6yQESTtJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHNLbAW6j7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWy7iaKWBVU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BihUW8eCTis&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/user/lezart123#p/a/u/0/oxSFgHcIkcM

Sounds pretty inferior. Why would someone think it is better? Did they also vote for Obama/Pelosi?

DavidNJ wrote:
Engine, transmission, track drive, build quality, reliability and performance are all the best in the business.

I don't know what you think you can interpret out of paper stats. Honda's reputation for building the best snowblowers is based on actual experience, its a proven machine that has been around a long time. It has nothing to do with their great reputation for other products like you said in another post. Thats just nonsense. I don't know what it is you have against them. All I can say is get some real life experience in harsh climates with various different machines and you'll see why honda is king in places that need the most out of a snowblower(get crap loads of snow all winter long).

giocam wrote:

No evidence for any of the claims. The engine doesn't appear to be anything special. Where is it made. Ditto the transmission. To the best of my knowledge there is no data on build quality and reliablity across brands. In cars, Honda is more mid-pack these days.

That leave performance. I looked at the videos. The think is SLOW. In all the videos the snow blower seemed slower than nearly every other brand in videos. And that was with it s rather narrow widths. As far as throwing, look at the videos. It is shooting a rather small load out at high speed. You can tell that by how tight the spread is as it leaves the chute and how far it goes before it spreads.

We already determined it has a very awkward chute direction control and no steering making it very hard to manuvuer. In the videos everyone was going straight. In one an 17 year old or so was wrestling with it.

It seems like an undesigned over priced product with misleading advertising using a multi-product brand image to deceive consumers.

How crap you are some stubborn.

The evidence is in the real life experience. Until you get some, you have no clue.

giocam wrote:

You buy a snow blower, pay top dollar, haven't used an equivalent sized or priced unit from a major manufacturer, and proud of your uninformed purchase?

Evidence, or it is just talk.

As far as specs, I'm mech engineer with a degree from a school that will go unnamed but you would immediately recognize. I've analyzed enough flows to know about throw, drop, and dispersion. This is a low volume high velocity flow, like a high velocity HVAC air handler like a Unico, SpacePak, or EPS.

We have more than enough threads here to know the value of steering and a quick crank. Anyone who has ever used a 24" plus snowblower knows the value of those. And Honda has neither?

It seems your faith is like belong to a religion that can't grow food and touts the value of fasting and how its population isn't obese. North Korea comes to mind.

LOL your education has zero to do with reading stat sheets and deciphering which performs best when it comes to HANDS ON operation of a snowblower. But like every other engineer I know, you think you know it all.

In contrast with repeated evidence you know little or nothing?

DavidNJ wrote:
You are a fine example of an office engineer. You discount real world experience in favor of your text book knowledge. I've seen examples of this my whole life and as a result have a new found understanding of why so called 1st world countries are in so much trouble financially and from a practical standpoint. Someone attempts to inform you that you need to try it before making a judgement call but you refuse to listen and resort to insults.

DavidNJ:

This is a low volume high velocity flow, like a high velocity HVAC air handler like a Unico, SpacePak, or EPS

 

Is that estimate based on the videos?  How can you judge density?

 

I’ve done many –>many<- Honda side by side trials (same day, same conditions) with US machines i.e. Toro, Ariens, Murray and MTD.  The Honda easily beat all other brands of the same horsepower and generally beat machines of higher horsepower.  For similar hp machines the Honda generally beat them distance wise by 10-15 feet.  For throughput while doing this there was no contest.  The Honda could go at a much faster pace.  It easily beat other similar hp machines in throughput and distance.

 

Distance and throughput are not a sole function of impeller diameter.  Throughput and distance are a function of a number of things like, impeller diameter, chute shape, chute angle, intake housing output port size and shape, impeller arm shape, rotational speed of impeller and augers, auger shape & etc. 

 

The posts here are not peer reviewed but it is mostly accepted here and on other forum that Honda is taken as a great quality built high end machine (standard) even by those who see some of Honda’s features or lack of them as a detraction.   Most who believe or accept that unfortunately have not seen or used a Yamaha. 

 

Giocam:

I live in an area that gets hit hard with snow. Honda's are everywhere here and they are awesome machines! The best performance,quality and reliability in the business. Yamaha is the only thing that comes close.

 

Giocam seems to be in an area where he sees a lot of Hondas in use and impressed by them.  His estimate of Honda and Yamaha seems right on the money, although I’d give the edge to Yamaha. 

If horsepower was the measure of equivalence and throw was the measure of performance, who knows.

The Honda clearly is putting a lot of energy into what it throws. It is coming out of the chute fast and hard. However, what you are concerned with is volume/mass not velocity and throw. Throw is more of a safising condition.

The Honda clearly is putting a lot of energy into what it throws. It is coming out of the chute fast and hard. However, what you are concerned with is volume/mass not velocity and throw. Throw is more of a safising condition.

Horsepower is a bit nebulous, since the ratings are different. Displacement/price would be better indicators. Honda wheeled snow blowers are in the $2300-2800 dollar range for widths of 24-28" with the biggest motor being an 270cc OHV 8.5hp/14ft-lb. The closest equivalent in price/size from another manufacturer is maybe the $1900 Toro 1128OXE. Otherwise a 28-30" 305cc Briggs and Stratton.

I'd love to see a video of the 28" $2800 HS928WAS Honda against the $1299 Ariens Deluxe 30", either the 921013 305cc Briggs and Stratton or the 287cc OHC Subaru. It shouldn't even be close, not even counting the Ariens huge advantage in operator interface.

Just for the record, my driveway is 250'x16' circular with an additional 600-1000sqft (out of 1600sqft) of motor pad that is cleared. The plows leave huge, hard EOD piles, which must be cleared an additional 15' to allow mailbox access. The house and shrubbery require a decent throw. The arc puts a significant part of the driveway in a turn. For the past 14 years I've plowed it myself with a 28" MTD with 12" auger and impeller, 16x6.5 tires, and powered by an 11hp Tecumseh.

Although this area has one expensive community after another, and there are maybe nearly 20 dealers plus 3 Home Depots and 2 Lowes within 10 miles, the nearest Honda dealer is 15 miles away.

This Honda info has been moderately interesting; it shows the effect of a high speed impeller. It probably begs the question: what are the impeller speeds of the other models? An interestingly, does the Ariens Deluxe 30" with the Subaru engine (replacing a Techumseh) work differently because the engine runs 10% faster although the gearing is the same.

Like I said, the ariens model which you would want to compare to the hs928 is the st928dlet. They are the upper echelon class of walk behind snowblowers and are the sameish price.

The deluxe with the subaru engine is a good machine but its not in the same class as the honda and higher end ariens. It may better a better value for your money though. But if money is no issue and you want the absolute best, Honda and Yamaha is where its at.

Oh and as for the steering on the honda, its a bit overstated when people say its so hard. Its not. Any average man will handle it no problem, my 70 year old uncle has no issues with it in his driveway which has a pretty steep slope.

DavidNJ wrote:

You are gifted if you can evaluate an engine inferiority or superiority through the sounds of youtube. Or did you mean something else is inferior? I failed to see how there's a correlation between someone's political views/preferences has an influence on their likes or dislikes of a certain brand of snowblower. Enlighten me if you will.

DavidNJ wrote:

The transmission is the only hydrostatic in this class of snowblower. Other brands use friction disc transmission. I don't particularly glorify the hydrostatic transmission as special, but it is unique. It is an expensive $500 price difference compared to a simple and effective friction disc for snowblower application. However, Honda is one of the few snowblower that offer track drive, and their selection of a hydrostatic transmission becomes apparent.

I don't care to comment too much about the engine, as people who have owned GX series engines can chime in about their experiences. Modern B&S are quite good, but they are beginning to play catch up. They are good value and reliable.

You say that it looks SLOW, that's your perspective. Please show us videos where every other brands is faster so that we can calibrate to your perspective. From experience, I know a lot of us do go slower through deep snow to prevent spillover or to maintain decent throwing distance. Now, you seemed to alluded to knowledge in fluid dynamics from some to be disclosed university, then I think you may recall choked flow. People without knowledge to this textbook phenomenon miraculously adapt their snowblower speed to get the best performance out of their machine. Incredible!!!

I don't believe that Honda is under-designed nor they have misleading advertising, I could be wrong. Expensive, yes. Over priced, no. Take a trip to your local Honda OPE dealer and evaluate the design of the HS1132, and tell me where and how it is under-designed. We all can check MSRP and spec sheets online, but design evaluations needs to be seen in person.

That "17 year old" seemed to do pretty well handling that snowblower considering the snow conditions and his size. If the snowblower bucket is half in snow, guess which way the snowblower will turn towards? It doesn't matter which brand of snowblower, all of them will wander and not go straight. If your snowblower can continue going straight without intervention from the operator, then you must be sitting on an awesome machine.

DavidNJ wrote:

I speculate that Honda does not have "steering" due to the fact that the same frame has to accommodate both wheeled and track models. In addition, there also needs to be two separate hydrostatic motors to drive the wheels/track independently, and controller unit, similar to zero turn lawn mowers. This would drive up the cost and complexity that few of us can afford. Honda does make higher models available in Canada that does steer, battery start, and have electric chute direction and angle adjustment. But all of this comes at a price of over $9000.

I suggest you continue your posting without reverting to political, religious, and ethnic innuendos. I'm not trying to enforce your political correctness, but you will find your arguments will lends more credibility if you don't vent your views online.

giocam wrote:

You want to compare a track Ariens with a 342 against a wheeled Honda with a 270cc? A rather strange comparison; how many people are buying tracked snow throwers? In NJ they are as rare as an Obama supporter in a Glenn Beck audience.

Everything in the world is built to a price, even the most exotic Formula One car. Bob Gates has a cute term for defense systems that are great but too expensive, he calls them 'exquisite'. There is no reason for a home owner to buy a 'Professional' Ariens unless you wanted a larger width. Even the tracked models are available as a Deluxe or Platinum Deluxe.

I have no idea how those would pair up. From the pictures it looks like the Honda has a 14" auger with 12" impeller. With similar size scoops and a slight power advantage to the Ariens, the Ariens would probably move a bit more snow. The Ariens would have a price advantage and a huge ease of use advantage.

The better comparison, and the more relevant, would be between the 28" wheeled unit and a 30" Ariens or 28" Toro.

The 30" Deluxe would have a 305cc or last year's Subaru 287cc (better than the Honda in every conceivable way). Slightly wider auger. It would add a lever for free wheeling the left wheel to aid turning. And be $1500 less. It should match or exceed the Honda's snow removal.

The $1900 1128 Toro would be 28" with a smaller 12" impeller but a larger 342cc motor. However, the auger has a 'trick' housing to discharge residual snow back to the scoop. They say it reduces the load on the impeller allowing it to apply more force to the throw through the chute. The only way to really know would be lab tests. It has left and right freewheel levers that would let your 70 year old AUNT use it. The chute changes direction and deflection with an easy to use lever. It would probably match or slightly exceed the Honda in snow removal rate while being an order of magnitude easier to use.

I'm still trying to resolve some unknowns. The units at the top of my list are the 28" Toro 1128, 30" Deere 1330SE, and the 30" Ariens Deluxe with Subaru engine.

Who cares about impeller performance anyway. Overall machine performance is most important. My unit is a 10 year old Ariens 924108 . Iv cleared 4 - 5 blocks of snow in 2 feet plus conditions of heavy wet snow . Who cares if it doesn't throw snow 50 feet. I'm not trying to brake a window. 30 feet is plenty. All the guys on u tube with 3- 4 thousand dollar Hondas  throwing fluffy snow in the trees is crazy. My low dollar Ariens machine can do that. Show me a high dollar honda throw heavy wet snow 50 feet. I paid $800 for my Ariens- Save your money by ARIENS. My baby NEVER let me down

This one looks like pretty wet snow, thrown about 50 feet or so.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BihUW8eCTis
 
 That machine was about $2000.
 
 How much is your $800 10 year old Ariens is in today's money?

aa335 wrote:

Look at that video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BihUW8eCTis

The snow blower is crawling. The snow is in a very tight, very high velocity discharge. And doesn't appear to have much mass, which accounts for its rapid movement in a tight pattern and is consistent with the slow speed.

I'd like to see two things: A side-by-side of a Honda with a comparable Ariens, Toro, Simplicity/Snapper/Deere and a writeup and some pictures of the hydrostatic drive. The only other snow blower I've seen with that is one high end Husqvarna.

Does someone have a link to Yamaha snow blowers or did they stop making them?

Answering my own questions:

1) No Yamaha in the US. They are big, expensive tracked units anyway.

2) Eaton hydrostatic drive catalog: http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/E-TRLD-TM001-E.pdf

The drive is interesting, allowing the engine to stay at peak power. They seem common in large lawn mowers. I wonder if it gives the Honda snow blowers a very high torque, low speed mode.

DavidNJ wrote:
I don't live in the US. Where I live we get a lot of snow, and like I said many people own the honda track drive. How is it a strange comparison? They are both upper class track drive machines(ie. top of the line models). Usually thats the comparison people will make. The honda will outperform the same class ariens, is around the same price, and have a much more expensive drivetrain.

The reason I keep saying to compare those is because people think honda is overpriced. They are expensive, but when you get to that class of snowblower, so is all the rest of the top brands.

I have no idea how those would pair up. From the pictures it looks like the Honda has a 14" auger with 12" impeller. With similar size scoops and a slight power advantage to the Ariens, the Ariens would probably move a bit more snow.

 

 

Up to about 2005 the Honda in side by side distance and throughput tests beats all US machines, Toro, Ariens, Simplicity, Snapper, Murray and MTD.   Somewhere around 2005 or a bit later Ariens increased their auger and impeller speed to 1300. 

 

Your 10hp MTD was probably running at 1180 or 1200 on the impeller.

 

Current Toro’s have the following for auger and impeller speeds.  Note: the 3300 is their factory setting.

Numbers supplied by the factory:

Impeller speed (3300 X 3.000/8.062) = 1228 RPM

Impeller tip speed - 3893 ft/min.

Auger speed - 123 RPM

 

Last year Toro offered some models with the Subaru engine which run at 4000 RPM so will give a boost to the above numbers.

 

The units at the top of my list are the 28" Toro 1128, 30" Deere 1330SE, and the 30" Ariens Deluxe with Subaru engine

 

An Ariens runs at 1300 with the stock engine at 3600.  With a 4000 RPM Subaru it would get a boost. 

Given your clearing area and lifespan of the MTD you could get away with a basic HD Ariens which would probalby easily last you 20 years.  

DavidNJ wrote:
What's your point?? Are you saying that the mass flow rate is low?  How did you arrive at q dot?  Are you eyes calibrated to determine density, velocity, distance, and velocity decay through youtube videos?

Snowblowers are inherently slow by nature as a trade off to allow displacement of snow to another location.  You mentioned that you have been clearing your driveway with a MTD snowblower for 14 years, at least you would have a clue.

Even a snowblower attached to 90 hp PTO of a Deere tractor is crawling into a 3 foot drift.  If you want  to see things more snow fast, get a snowplow.  But I doubt any plow with equivalent 9hp engine will displace same amount of snow weight 50 feet in the same time period as a snowblower.

DavidNJ wrote:
Yes, there is a reason.  Three , actually.  They can afford it, they want it, and they have long driveways.

trouts2 wrote:
You are right, performance among modern snowblowers today are fairly even with similar bucket width and engine power.  Honda no longer dominates distance and throughput.  It is not difficult to reverse engineer and duplicate why Honda does so well.

trouts2 wrote:

The Ariens also has a 14" impeller, so at 1300 rpm that would be 4750fpm and if the Subaru is 10% faster it would be 5300fp@4000rpm. What is the Honda? MTD has a 16" impeller in some Club Cadet and Sears models.

The impeller issue is that snow removal has three qualities: how long does it take, how much effort it takes, and how good a job it does. The impeller is part of the first goal, as is scoop size and auger performance. Steering, is part of the second. Throw and scrapper technology part of the third. Adjusting the scoop can be part of all three.

The Honda 'advantage' may be the hydrostatic drive. Whey are a single unit that internally have a variable flow pump and a fixed flow motor. A lever adjusts a cam on the pump changing its output voume per input revolution. Excess flow uis bypassed internally. On friction disc models slippage is possible but unintentional. In both the impeller is run off  a fixed reduction from the engine. As a result, in a hydrostatic drive changes in resistance shouldn't affect impeller speed, but in a friction disc they may. The hydrostatic drive may also allow a greater reduction in speed, The slow movement of the Hondas may be part of their strength; reviewers praise them, usually tracked, for getting through big EDD piles or plowing up hills. Both could be the result of the slow movement speed and constant impeller speed.

Note: Husqvarna has a 30" hydrostatic drive model. However, the auguer and impeller are both 12". It has left/right free wheel 'power steering' and the B&S 342cc Max engine.

trouts2 wrote:

The Ariens also has a 14" impeller, so at 1300 rpm that would be 4750fpm and if the Subaru is 10% faster it would be 5300fp@4000rpm. What is the Honda? MTD has a 16" impeller in some Club Cadet and Sears models.

The impeller issue is that snow removal has three qualities: how long does it take, how much effort it takes, and how good a job it does. The impeller is part of the first goal, as is scoop size and auger performance. Steering, is part of the second. Throw and scrapper technology part of the third. Adjusting the scoop can be part of all three.

The Honda 'advantage' may be the hydrostatic drive. Whey are a single unit that internally have a variable flow pump and a fixed flow motor. A lever adjusts a cam on the pump changing its output voume per input revolution. Excess flow uis bypassed internally. On friction disc models slippage is possible but unintentional. In both the impeller is run off  a fixed reduction from the engine. As a result, in a hydrostatic drive changes in resistance shouldn't affect impeller speed, but in a friction disc they may. The hydrostatic drive may also allow a greater reduction in speed, The slow movement of the Hondas may be part of their strength; reviewers praise them, usually tracked, for getting through big EDD piles or plowing up hills. Both could be the result of the slow movement speed and constant impeller speed.

Note: Husqvarna has a 30" hydrostatic drive model. However, the auguer and impeller are both 12". It has left/right free wheel 'power steering' and the B&S 342cc Max engine.

trouts2 wrote:

The Ariens also has a 14" impeller, so at 1300 rpm that would be 4750fpm and if the Subaru is 10% faster it would be 5300fp@4000rpm. What is the Honda? MTD has a 16" impeller in some Club Cadet and Sears models.

The impeller issue is that snow removal has three qualities: how long does it take, how much effort it takes, and how good a job it does. The impeller is part of the first goal, as is scoop size and auger performance. Steering, is part of the second. Throw and scrapper technology part of the third. Adjusting the scoop can be part of all three.

Total mass or mass/volume movement is the limiting factor in speed. The Honda may be clearing, but is it clearing fast? When the snow is lighter, the wider scoops would also make it faster, as then the impeller isn't the limiting factor.

The Honda 'advantage' may be the hydrostatic drive. Whey are a single unit that internally have a variable flow pump and a fixed flow motor. A lever adjusts a cam on the pump changing its output voume per input revolution. Excess flow uis bypassed internally. On friction disc models slippage is possible but unintentional. In both the impeller is run off  a fixed reduction from the engine. As a result, in a hydrostatic drive changes in resistance shouldn't affect impeller speed, but in a friction disc they may. The hydrostatic drive may also allow a greater reduction in speed, The slow movement of the Hondas may be part of their strength; reviewers praise them, usually tracked, for getting through big EDD piles or plowing up hills. Both could be the result of the slow movement speed and constant impeller speed.

Note: Husqvarna has a 30" hydrostatic drive model. However, the auguer and impeller are both 12". It has left/right free wheel 'power steering' and the B&S 342cc Max engine.

We measured the John Deere today using a 480frame/sec exposure. It is nearly exactly 20 rev/sec, 1200 rpm.

DavidNJ wrote:

Who's we?

Wife and me. Did you think it was a CIA operation? Or in a ME laboratory in the basement of building 2 at MIT?

DavidNJ wrote:

It takes two people at MIT to determine the rotational speed of a snowblower impeller? On a Saturday? My first thought would be "union workers" on double pay each. Interesting couple you two are.

Would never have thought it was anywhere at MIT. Once a great school, now it's just an acronym for Morons In Training.

aa335 wrote:

Yea, that happens to lots of schools with 2300+ board scores for admissions.

Wouldn't it be easy just to take the engine rpm and the ratio of the pulleys off the crank and impeller then do the math? Friiy

friiy wrote:

Depends if you're a mathematician, an engineer, or a handy man.

Depends on whether you can get to the pulley or not. A strobe light, timing light would be easier. Non invasive, just takes at most two people. One to fiddle with the strobe light, the other to hold down the lever thing to get the auger to turn. Or just use duct tape, and lose the second person.

However it's done, a 50 page thesis on it isn't necessary.

For Airens you can just count the auger rotations for a few seconds like taking your pulse.  A chalk mark or piece of tape on the blade helps.  That # times 10 gets the impeller speed.  For other most other US machines the impeller is 10 times the auger RPM.

I think Yamaha and Honda may have a higher ratio.  A Yamaha 6hp runs at 4000 RPM and will keep up with any US 8hp in distance and throughput.  As a note the Yamaha at lest has 4 roller bearings in the gearbox and the auger shaft supported by roller bearings. 

I figured it was around 1200rpm. This is 2010 guys, I just video taped it at 480 frames/sec and looked at a few seconds of the image. This became important because of a comment earlier in this thread about the Ariens having both a faster rotational speed and a higher discharge force because of a large diameter. There was also a discussion of blade to housing distance.

What is equally interesting is that impellers between the Deere/Simplicity and the Ariens are signficicantly different in design. The Deere/Simplicity is a 4 2" L  sections welded to a 11" square plate with thin supporting ridges to the plate center from the blate. The Ariens is three U-section scoops, straight for 2" then tapering in for about 3" mounted on three pronged support plate.

It would be great if the Internet had two neighors with an 30" Simplicity, a 30" Ariens, a 28" Toro, a 30" MTD (both 12" and 16"), a 30" Husgvarna, and a 28" Honda back to back in the same snow. But it doesn't exist. And there few people who have had used multile current models and fewer who report. Actually next to none. The closest I know is between a Toro 1128 and an older Ariens 33" that had no steering and no longer available Tecumseh motor with balance shaft.

I think the problem with using a stobe is you get all the multiple rpms of the unit also....      Such as 400 rpm of the unit will show on the strobe the same as 200... Meaning you would need to know the multiplication factor of the flashes... You would still need to know the ratio of the engine / pto to tell the actual rpm of the part...   (someone could be stobing at 1600 rpm and and the motor is turning at 3200 and it apears the same)

Just the Facts..

Friiy

This is 2010. We used a 480 frame/sec video from our camera. It was trivial since there was only 30° of movement between frames.

I guess this is 2010...

Friiy

friiy wrote:

Ouch, that hurts, more than the furnace door bearings. :) its late and I have no idea what you just said. 400 is 200, 3200 is 1600. Maybe I'll just a get high speed camera and forget about the strobe light idea. It's already Oct 2010, ferchrisssakes. I'm going to have another beer and call it a night.

At 30 degrees per frame means 12 frames per revolution, 480 frames per sec means 40 rotations per sec, 40 rotations per sec means 2400 rmp... 360/30=12, 480 / 12 = 40, 40 x 60 = 2400 rpm Now, just a question... is the impeller pulley larger or smaller than the engine pto pulley? If the impeller pulley is smaller than the pto pulley on the engine crank, then the impeller would have to spin faster than the engine.. ( the engine I think runs between 2800-3200 rpm).... Just throwing that out there.. Friiy

Friiy:

Engine drive pulleys are always smaller than lower driven pulleys.   Crank pulleys are generally right around three inches in diameter.  Driven lower pulleys are alway about 9.  When the drive pulley is a bit smaller the driven pulley is smaller.  The ratio alway very close to 3:1 in all machines.

DavidNJ in reference to Honda:
The engine doesn't appear to be anything special.

 

The GX series Honda used on snowblowers is special and a big part of the pricing on their machines.

 

DavidNJ:

What is equally interesting is that impellers between the Deere/Simplicity and the Ariens are signficicantly different in design. The Deere/Simplicity is a 4 2" L  sections welded to a 11" square plate with thin supporting ridges to the plate center from the blate. The Ariens is three U-section scoops, straight for 2" then tapering in for about 3" mounted on three pronged support plate.

This part is interesting.   There are 2 - 6 blades used on 9 to 16 in diameter impellers.  The impeller arm shapes vary widely between makers.  Each winter I have 5-10 machines around so can take out similar range hp machines and compare them.  These are generally 70’s through 2006 machines, my machines and all have been compression tested.  They’re around so I can take them out numbers of times in different conditions.  I clear two average driveways, 6 car widths of EOD, 200 feet of frontage sidewalk and 1000 feet of sidewalk up the street.  Beside the house there is a large cemetery so long trips can be taken through it or weave through the markers.  When conditions are good I do the above clearing and by a day or two after a storm have a couple of acres in the cemetery will all be covered with thrown snow. 

It’s been just about impossible to isolate any value to various impeller configurations.  Say for example comparing 2 824 machines with 12 inch 3 blade impellers with different arm configurations.  There too many other parts figuring in the total performance, auger shape, bucket shape, bucket outlet, chute shape & etc. 

One thing that does not get mentioned much is the distance between the back of the auger to the impeller arms or the distance between the back of the auger to the housing.  Too short of a distance would restrict flow along the back of the impeller housing.  A big distance would require quite a bit bigger bucket from front to back and longer drive shaft.  More metal more expense.  Too great a distance and snow will just jam up.  There’s no one optimal distance either.  The design will vary with average ground speeds estimates, impeller size and shape, impeller speed, collection ability of the impeller arms, bucket outlet shape and chute shape.  One element is not optimal without considering the rest of the design.

Trying to isolate contributions by specific design area has been too difficult.  What seems to matter is the total design is important versus one specific thing being of more value.  A 4 blade impeller is not a given advantage over a 3 blade.  Arm shapes of various three blade machines are not necessarily better.  On the less expensive machines the arms will be flat.  They go from less wide to wide at the end on some and on others the same width for the length.  The more expensive machines generally have shaped arms but vary with no shape being better versus its contributing factor in the total design.  The arm shape may be important to how close the arms extend to the housing barrel with closer not necessarily being better.

Outside of the gross contributors of impeller diameter and rotation speed the other contributing factors are too much for the average person to get a grip on.  Even with having a bunch of machines and a lot of testing hours it’s been impossible to isolate factors.  The average guy knows his current machine, a few old machines that are outdated and he probably can’t recall specifics about the old ones.  Probably the only person who could make some interesting comments about these things is Snowmann.  He could probably write a very interesting post on just the bucket output size and shape and it’s influence on the rest of the design. 

trouts2 wrote:

Thanks for your answer. As engines, the Honda's are roughly the price of other small engines. They certainly have a brand name for reliablity; however I've never seem objective data on that and believe alot of it may be overflow from the earlier days of the automotive brand (mid-1980s to early 2000s).

As I understand it the auger has two functions: to break up snow and ice and to move it to the impeller in the center. Most are pretty open designs which seem to just gently encourage the movement. Most have a serrated edge on the outside; I've seen one that also has a serrated edge on the inside.

I certainly agree that it is impossible to calculate the impeller performance. A CFD model may do it, but just getting the dynamics for different weight snows and ice/snow mixtures would be difficult. In many cases the impeller seems to be the key; it determines how much snow is ejected. For heavy snow it would seem to be velocity of the snow at the edge of the blade, is the force enough to sheer the snow and cause it to eject. While a greater length of the blade may move more power, a shorter blade could be better in heavy stuff. A larger diameter at the same rotational speed would have more force. A higher rotational speed would have more force. A slower vehicle speed would reduce the volume of snow and those the load on the impeller. Too much to compare spec sheets.

However, other than Honda and MTD nearly every manufactuer  is using basically similar Briggs and Stratton engines. They also use nearly identical friction drives. So, the impeller could be the deciding factor on snow removal perforance (in contrast to ease of use or reliablity). Ariens has a 14" impeller, 15" tires (vs. 16"), and reported by someone in this thread 8% faster impeller speed on most others have you noticed and advantage with their models?

Another difference, not impeller, I've noted is the Honda and Yamaha have the upper edge of the scoop recessed from the leading edge; every other brand seems to have the upper edge even with the front of the scoop. When the snow is taller than the scoop, such as EOD, that seems to cause some to fall on the scoop. Do the Hondas work better in those circumstances? Do any other manufactures have similar scoops?

friiy wrote:
I had a feeling you would not have missed that little tidbit.  You are good, and diplomatic.  :)

aa335 wrote:

I did it in my head on the fly, it was exactly 24 frames. That would be 15° not 30°. However, didn't change the relevant calc which was 20 rev/sec.

DavidNJ wrote:  
Don't sweat it. 

trouts2 wrote:

Just came across this Ariens spec sheet: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/04/04f00473-2321-4eb8-8447-31daba809102.pdf

It gives the impeller speed as flows on all 14" models. Note: the Subaru and the Briggs and Straton engines have different 'sheeves' that run the betls to the drive and attachment from the engine. Without knowing their diameters it is hard to say if the 4000 rpm is extra speed at the impeller.

  Impeller

Impeller Diameter - in. (cm) 14 (35.6)

Impeller Speed (RPM) 1010

Impeller Tip Speed -

ft/min (m/m) 3702 (1128)

Well, a while ago around 2002-2004 they bucked the auger and impeller speeds.  I was aware they dropped later but somewhere in the last month I thought Snowmann posted that now they were at 1300.  I looked for the post but could not find it.

 

It’s hard to believe they now running so slow.  The new 9-11hp machines are at 1010rpm at the impeller.  The auger speeds are not given.  I had a 2004 11.5hp 24inch and it was fantastic.  Max distance is a factor here.  I don’t think I’d be as happy with the new machines.  The new speeds are back at the 80’s and 90’s levels.  There are now lots of improvements for tossing distance compared to the old models in chute, bucket and rake design which is great but slowing down the impeller is strange. 

 

1999 110 1100  8-13hp

 

2002 141 1410  7hp       10 inch impeller

2002 141 1410  8hp       12 inch impeller

2002 131 1310  9hp       12 inch impeller

2002 131 1140  13hp     14 inch impeller

 

2003 141 1410  8hp       12 inch impeller

 

2004 118 1150  8hp 

2004 131 1310  8-13hp  12 inch impeller

2004 131 1140 13hp      14 inch impeller

 

2005 120 1200  5-6hp    12 inch impeller

2005 121 1209  9-13hp  14 inch impeller

2006 120 1200  5-8hp    12 inch impeller

2009        1075  9-13hp  14 inch impeller Tip speed 3940ft/min

 

2010        1010  9-11hp  14 inch impeller

2010        1112  big hp   16 inch impeller

It adds a question whether prior Ariens performance can be used as a guide.

Was there an impeller change when the speed change was made? I see two possible reasons to make the change: 1) another design change was made and performance was still improved but couldn't handle the faster speed; 2) one or more components were redesigned, probably to reduce costs, and they couldn't withstand the higher loads while meeting safety, reliablity, and warranty requirements.

Do we have the numbers for their Professional models powered by the same 342 Briggs engine?

You have got to find a real hobby or get laid more often.  You may be suffering from analysis paralysis.

Seriously man, this OCD is not good.  Get some help.

Now we're gonna hear endless dribble about what hobbies are real, how do you define "real", how real can be mispelled, how the structure of the sentance can and may be misleading and how often is too often or perhaps not often enough....

Sad, the diatribe probably will include Marissa Tomei, Obama, a policeman, and an Uzi.

I guess I should brace myself for a 500 word dissertation.  I"m glad my tax money isn't funding this paper.  Or is it?  :)

trouts2, what machine was that with the 11.5 hp on a 24" bucket?  Would you have to build your own these days to have a power-to-chute-width ratio like that?  Is there something like that available?

1999 110 1100  8-13hp

2002 131 1140  13hp     14 inch impeller

2004 131 1140 13hp      14 inch impeller

2005 121 1209  9-13hp  14 inch impeller

2009        1075  9-13hp  14 inch impeller Tip speed 3940ft/min

2010        1010  9-11hp  14 inch impeller

It would seem the 14" impeller always had a speed 1200rpm or lower, and 1100 or under as often as not.

Husqvarna told me today their 'high speed impeller' on their Crown units is 1600 rpm. That would be 5000 ft/min tip speed vs. the 3700-4000 reported on the Ariens and Toro models.

Of course, it would depend on whether that information is accurate. All of the literature lists some models has having the high speed impeller 'feature' and others not having it. The only difference appears to be the pulley on the engine, which may be because of the ratio or because of engine differences.

DavidNJ wrote:
I upgraded this on my Sears Husky.  Thead here:

http://www.abbysguide.com/ope/discussions/44687-A-1.html

The you measure the impeller speed before and after or the pulleys, top and bottom? Did you get a chance to try it on heavy, wet, snow?

On another note, really another thread, how was the deflector extension? Did it help?

And how are the Husky controls? I keep think that the Simplicity/Deere electric will be easier with no hand movement off the grips. However, the Husky's seem well made and smooth with that push release to hold them in place.

DavidNJ wrote:
• I didn't measure actual speed but could visually tell fan & auger were both spinning faster.

• I did test on some wet snow and it gave me another 10-15 feet of throwing distance.   I think I measured distance at around 45 feet.  I posted distance in that other referenced thread so I may be off.

• Deflector installed at end of season.  I never got a chance to test it out.

• I like my controls but I haven't really experienced others.  Keep in mind that if you don't keep your blower in a heated shed the cables can freeze up.  This can be mitigated with some methods but be aware it can happen.

snowmachine wrote:

Which cables froze? Every snowblower has cables for the auger and drive. This sounds a bit unusual.

DavidNJ wrote: One of my snowblowers has no cables.

The other one has only a throttle cable...

DavidNJ wrote:
Do a search on forum for 'frozen cables".  You will get hits.

I've had some freeze ups originally when my shed wasn't heated with the deflector chute cable.  Sometimes melted snow will get in the cable end near the chute and make its way down the cable and then freeze up.

Some have put small slits at bottom of cable to drain off water or feed a lubricant down the cable to keep water from freezing up cable.  Even when mine has froze engine heat usually frees it up in short order.

Shryp wrote:

How does it operate the traction control lever and the drive control lever?

snowmachine wrote:

Tried here and google with frozen cables. Here return your post in this thread, Google a hodgepodge, nothing about snowblowers.

The Husqvarna Crowns have "Premium Grade Cables". Could that be to address this issue?

DavidNJ wrote:
Solid aluminum and steel rods.

DavidNJ wrote:
Goto Google

Search for these terms---->  Abbysguide frozen cable