Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Notice the absence of the Dutch Tech canisters? The presence of the Edge, which was supposed to have been an dealer exclusive? So much for integrity. Oreck dealers fared betetr when Dave was at the helm.

Trebor wrote:

Hi Trebor,

Quick question -- has Oreck ever seriously pushed them?  I know of the Dutch Tech cans only because, despite the add-on of power nozzles,  they are copies of the canisters Philips left off manufacturing in Europe a good while back. I actually used one.

However, I have yet to see or recall being told of a significant U.S. sales push ever being made per the Dutch Techs.  Years ago Oreck put out a canister vac that got high marks in CR but then as now, it seems the uprights get the most of their attention when it comes to advertising.  I've seen no commercials for Oreck cans that I recall other than possibly a brief mention at the tail end of an advert for another product

The new Edge is the first Oreck I've seen in a long time that's actually "new" but I have the feeling that I'll also be wondering why they didn't get out and push in its regard too.

Venson

Venson, according to the man who had the Oreck shop before the current owner the Dutch Techs were HUGE sellers on the East coast. This was before Miele had made such inroads in the North American market, at least seven years ago. They probably found it hard to compete against Miele

Venson,The canister was called CELOC,I believe it was a WHIRLPOOL canister looking thing . I believe even Sears sold it under the WHIRLPOOL label

It made sence that  it was whirlpool product , Since David Oreck married into it. His rirst upright was called the celoc 1000 or 4000.

Maybe Carmine can tell us the real skinny on the Oreck story

MOLE

       Mole ,

            I don't know the Oreck story but do rmember seeing Made in West Germany on an early one on the church cleaner across the street.

                                                                                                          Procare

In any event, here's some not so great but accurate line drawings of two Philips vacuums.  The lower model matches Oreck's Dutch Tech.

Venson

mole wrote:
This was the ORECK XL Celoc . What year do you think WP sold it at Sears as "Whirlpool"?  And Why?

procare wrote:
Yes, early ORECKS were made in Germany, for ORECK.  That would be after the WP/Oreck models.

Venson wrote:
I posted a review on the previous website way back in 1999-I think.  Here is the review transferred to this site-

http://www.abbysguide.com/vacuum/reviews/266-0-1.html

ORECK is known for his "8lbs. upright".  They get people's attention, because they are different.  Well, not so different anymore.  He knows that he can sell more of the uprights than the canisters, therefor advertising makes since.  The vacuum pays for itself.  This is true of other brands also.  Vacuum cleaners are very seldom seen of TV.  Look at how often Sears Kenmores were shown on TV commercials.  Eureka and HOOVER and Bissell will advertise, but it is in spurts.

Please wait

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Mike_W wrote:

Hi Mike,

I was born here a hundred years ago.  Sears commercials are more gentle reminders for me though they may bear more impact on young'uns and new arrivals to the U.S.  Were I in the market for a vacuum, a dishwasher, range or refrigerator heading to Sears woulkd probably be a no-brainer as it has long been established for myself as a place to find anything practical.  My grandfather bought his overalls there and our first Silvertone TV.

Oreck on the other hand seems to pick up stuff for its line and leave it on a back burner.  The "Iron-whatever" portable vac  as an instance goes back almost 40 years as a Sears item before it fell off their roster.  I'm merely curious to learn if its a big concern for the company whether they sell or not.  Or, maybe they keep just enough on hand to satisfy those looking for somethng beyond the usuall fare now and then. 

Of course, everyone's aware of lightweight Oreck uprights and Oreck "power teams being the jewel in the company's crown but that makes me still wonder all the more at why they bother wih other items that they'll probably not push to the fore by way of more agressive advertising. 

Venson

Perhaps Oreck couldn't get them as they were originally Philips canisters.

This is the best pic/photo I could find of the ORECK Dutch Tech canister to post here.  This is the ORECK Dutch Tech 1400B which typically sells for $800.  1400 Watt motor. 10 year motor warranty.  3 year overall warranty.  17 pounds for the vacuum only.  With the tools included it's 25 pounds.  It's noted claim: Ultra quiet   "....it's so quiet it won't wake a sleeping baby."  There are 3 less expensive Dutch Tech models.  Two models are 1200: an A and B [1200 Watts].  One model with a power head and one without.  Priced at $500 and $700 repectively.  A 1400 A model also without power head is priced at $700. 

Consumer Reports gave it fair to middlin ratings.  Customers/users give it the same ratings as CR.  It was marketed as "European engineering: the equivalent of a Swiss watch."  Obviously geared toward the 50 million families in the USA with infant children/babies.  In CR's most recent ratings [March 2010] the ORECK DutchTech 1400B rated an overall numerical score of 65 in a field of 18 canisters which ranged from the lowest score of 57 to the highest of 73.  Tying with MIELE Plus S251 and closely matching SEBO C series and MIELE Callisto.  Besting both dyson canns.  There is no reliability rating for ORECK canns.  ORECK uprights receive a 9 score for reliability in a field of 12 brands ranging in scores from the lowest [best] of 3 to the highest [worse] of 13.

Carmine D.

ORECK joins the Thanksgiving Day sales frenzy.  It's safe to say, as Trebor posted, ORECK is no longer in the business of canisters with power nozzles.  Note its latest Ouest Canister for $199 is a straight suction only and nothing more expensive with a P/N.   Can't disagree that ORECK was a better company with Dave at the helm.  Sadly, nothing in life stays the same and we should remember best the good times.

Carmine D.

ORECK doesn't take a holiday for Christmas.  It's always about business.

Carmine D.

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CarmineD wrote:
Dyson took Hoover down and now they have Oreck working overtime trying to keep up.  It is just a matter of time.

HARDSELL wrote:

It's just a matter of time alright.  What vacuum do you use now and recommend to others?  A HOOVER lightweight bagged copied exactly after the ORECK.    I luv it! 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hoover in name only.  Copied but not duplicated.  The Hoover actually cleans.

Remember when you recommended Hoover and claimed that they would be the demise of Dyson.  Dyson hasn't been sold. Hoover was.  You abandoned the Hoover ship after it sank and climbed in the Oreck life boat.  Now that raft is taking on water.

Unless you can walk on water you better be looking for another raft.

HARDSELL wrote:

HOOVER is the gold standard of rug cleaning.  Always was and still is.  The vacuum name in rug cleaning for almost 100 years.  Your own purchase of the HOOVER lightweighth affirms this.  ORECK is the standard bearer for lightweights.  Always was and still is.  The vacuum name in lightweights for almost 50 years.  Again you affirm this by trying ORECKs not just once but twice before settling with the HOOVER.  I like both brands and their models.  

Dyson makes a decent bagless FINALLY after scrubbing the gawdawful clutch and floating head nonsense [discontinued].  Not surprisng to me to see dyson prices FINALLY coming down to realistic amounts to compete in the big box store venues, its primary sales market in the USA.  Dyson made these recent price/product changes exactly for the reasons you said above:  To stay afloat and keep from sinking further in the industry.  Just as I said years ago they would have to do when you and others kow towed my words.  Better late than never.  Especially for a niche market player like dyson.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I always liked Hoover untill about 10 or so years back.  Still always thought Electrolux and Rainbow were better cleaners.  Gold standard is a useless title.  My carpets look 90% as good as when new and have seen less Hoover than any brand.  No wear, no tear and deep clean.  Being a standard for a lightweight is also a title with no value with reference to cleaning ability.  Electric autos are a standard for saving gas, however they are of little value for travel.  Two Orecks and nothing positive to say. Speaks well of Oreck doesn't it?

I seriously doubt that competition impacted Dyson price cuts as much as other factors.  Poor economy #1.  Recouped costs on R&D.  Remember how you made fun of Dyson's # of engineers and bragged about Hoover's few.  Dyson was developing new products.  Hoover only developed new series names for their existing junk.  Who needs an engineer to develop a name change?  I do not recall saying that Dyson would never reduce pricing.  It is only a given after time in the market.  Remember a couple years ago when plasma TV's were so expensive.  Currently they are the least expensive on the market.

I do remember that the with the intro of each new Hoover series you claimed that it would be the demise of Dyson and I said no.  You and Hoover failed.  As I recall Hoover was desperately cutting prices in a good economy while Dyson was actually increasing.  Dyson thrived and Hoover failed.

Oreck has resorted to buying other brands is an attempt to get a vac with cleaning power.  Dyson still produces their own.

Get a raft Carmine.

I agree with you that Electrolux [Aerus] and Rainbow are both brands with good vacuum products too that have stood the test of time just like HOOVER and ORECK .  

Having had to try ORECK twice, like you did, speaks more about you than ORECK.  You obviously aren't sure.  Buying, using and selling your dyson DC07 and not buying another dyson while boasting of the brand also speaks volumes.  Still not sure.  

On a good note Consumer Reports, the consumer magazine you like to take exception with, rates the HOOVER duo you bought and used as number ONE in the upright category.  I have to say NOT for $500, $400 or $300.  $250 is more like it.  About what all new dysons are probably worth in a good economy.

Dyson and its 500 engineers FINALLY followed my email advice to them in September 2006 and scrubbed the gawdawful clutch and discontinued the models using it.    Better late than never. 

Carmine D. 

The Oreck store in my town closed. It was successful, so this must be a move by Oreck. My friend who manages a vac shop picked up the local dealership, and has sold out of his first two orders within two weeks, without any advertising

Trebor wrote:

Hello Trebor:

Your friend and the new ORECK Home Health Center owner/operator bought into a turn-key business operation.  Best kind. 

Carmine D.

 

CarmineD wrote:
Hoover may have had a "gold standard of rug cleaning," but wasn't that down to the actual roller bar and metal bars to retain its "beats as it sweeps as it cleans," action? Almost all Hoover models these days Carmine, are made of cheap Chinese produced plastic and there are no metal bars to beat the carpet. At least Oreck have retained the wooden rollers with proper bristles/more brushy action.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello vacmanuk:

Where the beater bar for HOOVER was its edge over all the other uprights for the greater part of the 20 th century, now and still its the HOOVER windtunnel technology that gives it the edge over all other uprights.  Still the gold standard in rug cleaning.  IMHO 

WRT ORECK, are there ORECK Home ealth Cleaning Centers in the UK and Europe?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Well Carmine, the Windtunnel "feature" to the best of my knowledge has hee haw / i.e. nothing to do with the beater bar or roller brush (whatever one term you prefer). The Windtunnel feature simply points to a dual dust channel that fills up the bag quicker and is probably claimed by Hoover "to pick up more." I dont know if we have those kinds of centres in Europe - hate to say it Carmine - and you know how I feel about Oreck - but Europe and the U.K don't have much popularity with the Oreck models.

vacmanuk wrote:

Vacmanuk, HOOVER doesn't make the claim exclusively about the benefits of WT technology but others in the industry share the technology's claim as true and beneficial/advantageous for best all around rug cleaning.  Interestingly this site, unrelated to HOOVER, also makes mention of the famous HOOVER beater bars of yester year. 

http://www.vacuumwizard.com/hoover-windtunnel.html

I would also suggest that you note other vacuums' claims about maximizing rug cleaning throughout the brush nozzle cleaning swath.  Like the recently introed LG uprights Kompressor uprights.  They are copying the HOOVER WT technology.  LG actually uses the same or similar verbage as you with "dual force" moniker.  HOOVER WT tech actually claims th same cleaning power over the entire cleaning swath of the nozzle, not just in two places of the swath.  Unlike most uprights and P/N which have peaks and valleys in their cleaning swath depending on the dirt/vacuum path in relation to the brush roll/nozzle, WT tech gives the same over all.  IMHO gold standard for rug cleaning.  Eliminates the need for redundant/repetitive back and forth motions over the same rug areas for cleaning.

Carmine D.

WRT ORECK, I suspect the lesser popularity in UK and Europe are in part the reason for a lack of the ORECK Home Health Centers.  The USA market probably keeps ORECK as busy as it wants/needs to be for sales/service of ORECK vacuums and its floorcare products.  BTW, several appliance makers actually added new manufacturing jobs in the USA in 2010 for the first time since 1997.  An increase of new manufacturing jobs of 1.3 percent over last year [2009].  That percentage is expected to be even higher this year [2011] as USA factories are required to upgrade their operations and avoid the additional costs of overhead and labor by outsourcing to Mexico and China.  By recent count ORECK claims to have about 600 ORECK stores nationwide in the USA not counting vacuum store independents which sell and service ORECK's.   With ORECK's headquarters and plants in the USA, it minimizes transportation costs for getting its vacuums and floorcare products to market by saturating the US market and conscoiusly avoiding expansion to your side of the pond.  Transporation costs to get their products to market, next to the raw material costs of production, are the second largest cost to appliance makers worldwide.  Not to mention the exchange rate issues of doing business on your side of the pond.  With the euro concerns and countries in Europe falling like flies to bankruptcy, it will be hard if not impossible to see appliance makers expanding in the UK and Europe. Just the opposite.  Companies will likely leave.  One exception is Germany which is carrying the rest of Europe with the falling euro.

CarmineD wrote:
It is without doubt, that in my opinion, the U.S are swayed by the patriotic "made in America," appliances that swings the vote for purchases, and yet Carmine half of Eureka and most of Electrolux's products are produced in China. The U.K does not have many manufacturing bases left in any appliance foothold, with the only exception being Numatic Henry vacuums wholly made in England. Dyson, Hoover (Italy owned by Candy SPA), even Panasonic - they are all, if not wholly produced in China and has been the case for the last ten years. Hoover still produce the Purepower in the U.K but only by screwdriver assembly where the most of the vacuum is made in China before being sent to the U.K for minimal assembly. What you're saying isn't new that "with the euro concerns in Europe...companies will likely leave..." They already left - it's just that the U.S are slow to see where Chinese products are being made hidden by royalistic brands that U.S buyers in the past went for.

Secondly, when it comes to rug performance in the U.K it isn't as highly beneficial to buyers. Buyers couldnt care less if the beater bars are made out of wood, or if a standard test has given them greater status than another brand. Infact in the commercial field, many companies will go for the SEBO brand or another company that use the SEBO design because of the structure of the roller bar and the ease of removal, rather than how long the bristles are etc. Sanitaire/Electrolux did try and sell their metal upright here last year. It hasn't been a success - the model is too heavy by U.K tastes and the steel bar hasn't met universal approval because of the U.K & Europe's preferences to thinner floor coverings and vinyl/laminate.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi,

That comes as no surprise to me.  Here we've always maintained a "more's better" outlook.  Circa 1950, only 10 percent of carpeting product on the American market was what we could have referred to as tufted and the remainder was woven.    Woven carpeting save for issues with lint and pet hair were easy enough to maintain.  The lack of challenge due to limited carpet types may well have been a reason why all those straight-suction Electrolux tank-type vacs were felt to be so wonderful and sold well.

However, with the development of man-made fibers, nylon's arrival in 1947 for one, the picture changed here.  Everyday, rank-and-file folks could begin to buy affordable but luxurious looking carpeting with heavier, deeper pile.  Hoover had beater bars long before that point in time but I feel the "beats as it sweeps as it cleans" sales pitch was more angled toward reminding the public that Grandma's day had passed.  You no longer had to take up your rug and put it on the washline in the backyard to whack it thoroughly clean by hand because Hoover had incorporated the idea in an easy to use machine.

Hoover and its beater bar still had an edge on the American market when it became obvious that the denser weave and depth of the carpeting styles we'd begun to take a shine to weren't necessarily a piece of cake to clean.  The Hoover company more than met the challenge.  What makes me curious is if it has been mainly economics or mentality that has made European and American tastes and needs different.

http://www.carpet-rug.org/about-cri/the-history-of-carpet.cfm

Venson

Venson wrote:
Up until 1987/88 Hoover continued to sell the "last of the classic lines," which meant Junior and Senior/Convertible/Powerplus uprights having the last of the metal beater bars. Hoover UK continued with the Junior before being replaced eventually by the Turbopower range which had a plastic roller and plastic tufts. Hoover weren't happy of course that their old Junior was missing out on sales and made a limited run of "last batch" models with a plastic roller similar to the style of the Turbopower. I know a few owners who have these models and say quite happily that the plastic rollers are better on pick up. However I much admired the old fashioned metal bars until it our Junior sliced up our vinyl floor! Hoover made a lot of campaign adverts in the UK (most of which you can find them on You Tube) but I have to say, that over the compeititors such as Electrolux and a few other brands, Hoover stood out as being better designed and having a much better pick up because of the beater bars - the Electrolux Z500 didn't have any beater bars until Electrolux changed the brush roll to adopt a single line of plastic to act as a beater bar - it however, wasn't as successful on pick up due to its straight design compared to Hoover's turbine effect of the beater bars.

The two quintessential and unique rug cleaning features of HOOVER vacuums are the beater bars [once metal] and windtunnel technology.  Both developed and marketed first in the USA by HOOVER engineers in North Canton, Ohio.  Now sadly gone.  These features are still very much a part of vacuum history for the past, present, and no doubt future.  My bases for declaring HOOVER the gold standard of rug cleaning.  Past, present and likely into the foreseeble future.

ORECK started and kept its product manufacturing, at least for its signature lightweight uprights, wholly in the USA for the last 50 years and still [roughly 1963].  Until this changes, ORECK is part of a handful of vacuum name brands that can still claim made in the USA.  We recently discussed RICCAR going the USA route, not just for its uprights as was always the case but now also for its line of canns.  Part of the first increase in new manufacturing jobs in 2010 since 1997.    

Carmine D.

A link to an article in the Las Vegas Sun Review Journal.  It uses the Wall Street Journal's article from this past Wednesday where I got the facts for my posts here.  It doesn't use patriotism for US companies locating in the USA/upgrading existing facilities in the USA.  Uses words like increase job growth, new manufacturing jobs in the US, utilizing Americans with skills, revive stagnant cities and so on.  

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/jan/21/made-america/

Venson wrote:

HOOVER's engineers designed and marketed the first 2 in 1 vacuum in the early 60's: The Dial with on board tools.  As Americans plushed up their carpets and rug piles, the HOOVER Dial, with its excess rug suction power and beater bars posed a problem for the ladies of the house to maneuver.  So it short order HOOVER desined and implemented the self-propel feature on the Power Dial.  Also a part of vacuum history past, present and future.  Others, like EUREKA and KIRBY, copied.  Gold standard of rug cleaning:  HOOVER.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,

I'd thought that ease of movement was the purpose of dial since for whatever Hoover didn't bother to work in a rug height adjustment for the first Dial-A-Matic.. 

The dial was actually a suction diverter.  Turn it one way and you could adjust the cleaner's level of suction delivery for attachments. Turn it the the other and suction for the cleaning head was adjusted not so much for need of its reduction but for easier pushing.  Just a teenybopper at the time of the Dial's introduction, I was left to believe that the maker had intended tthe suction adjustment to allow for easier pushing since no height adjustment was on the cleaner and because Hoover claimed its design compensated for the lack  (row if wide rollers at the front of the cleaner's base were intended to help "float" the front end.).  

However, the Dial-A-Matic  not have onboard tools.  Its hose locked on with a twist and a plastic bag for holding tools was first supplied. Though it is possible the hose could be left locked onto the machine while you used it for upright tasks the arrangement was too clumsy for most users to bother with.  There also was first, a soft plastic piece attached to the hose to allow the user to hook the hose on at the top of the cleaner's handle if you needed to leave off above floor vacuuming to go do something else.  Later down the line they came up with another hard plastic concoction to hold attaqchments near the end of the hose that held the dust brush, upholstery nozzle and the crevice tool near where the hose was locked on to the cleaner.   That same piece was also used as an attachment holder for the little Porta-Power vac.  Despite the power-drive models intorduction, I think the regular dials sold more.  Especially when Hoover saw he light and  introduced manually pushed dial models with a height adjustment installed.  These endured on the maret for a good while without many alterations otherwise.

Venson

Hi Venson:

We're getting off the subject of ORECK but for a good cause.  You're right on all accounts........well almost.  For a teenie bopper at the time you were pretty vacuum savvy.

HOOVER Dial was the first clean air system upright or dirt by-pass upright of the era as opposed to the conventional fan first design of the times for uprights.

On board tools:  You forgot the plastic see thru attachment bag that had a slit that hung on the lever clip that held the bag compartment closed.  

First Dial [63] had the infamous self-adjusting floating head that a recent bagless maker copied and stole 40 years later.  I told the NC HOOVER people who came out to demo the Dial to me, it wouldn't work on high pile and shag, newly coming into vogue.  Just as I told that bagless vacuum maker in 2006.  I was right on both.  To its credit HOOVER within a year added a manual 3 level rug adjuster to the floating head.  Not good enough.  The other maker took 3 more years after I told them to add carpet adjustments.

HOOVER warned its Dial users [in the User Guide] never to exceed medium rug carpet suction.  For several reasons.  One reason was because it made the vacuum hard to push and pull on high and shag rugs.  Users didn't read/listen.  Truth of the matter was that the "adjuster/diverter" lever turned so easily, it was really meaningless for carpets andf on floors most users went with the max level.  Users adjusted to the max or it ended there anyway by default.

By '67 HOOVER intro'ed the Power Dial.  Just about 4 years after the first Dial.  The rest is vacuum history.

The biggest drawback of the Power Dial was the 7 extra pounds added to the vacuum weight by the transmission for the self-propel feature.  I recommended the SP Power Dial for people with high-shag carpets and lots of it.  If not, the HOOVER Dial with adjustments was fine.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:


The Electrolux Z500/Volta 500 was about the same appearing in the 1970's and made in many different versions throughout the years. Seen here on the furthest right hand side next to our Dial-A-Matic inspired Hoover Junior Deluxe or "Starlight" as it was known. The 'Lux Z500 had a dial at the back (if you look closely you'll see an Orange dial at the back) that effectively mirrors and copies the Hoover function of the suction regulator. Twist it one way and it gives the machine full suction, twist the other way and it lets out air at the back. The whole dial came up on a clip to which a slide in lock hose and tools could be used, effectively giving it a "bottom end" hose release and thus never falling over. The Z500 was also, in Europe at least one of the very first clean air suction vacuums.

Trebor wrote:

Hello Trebor:

Apparently, if all goes right, MIELE's canister with ORECK name will replace the Dutch Tech cann as the high end model in the ORECK line up.  With the panasonic made in China Quest to round out the bagged ORECK canisters.  These pano made canns have been around for awhile under the HOOVER and EUREKA names and for considerably less prices than the ORECK Quest.  The customary ORECK compacts [part of the duo team pairing with the lightweight uprights], will still be an integral part and mainstay of the ORECK venue.

Dave is taking a back seat now in operations likely due to his age and younger family members who have vested personal and professional interests in the business. 

Carmine D.

Oreck is not offering the Miele cans with the Oreck nameplate. They are mere making a peace offering (avoiding a class action lawsuit, (My opinion)) to the franchise dealers that they screwed when they undercut them on their Corporate website, QVC. and Boxstores. They can now carry Miele Badged vacuums. In essence Oreck Corporate screws with their own dealers and then gets Milele to bail them out and then pass the screwing onto the Indies who have given birth to Miele USA...NICE! Carmine I have a question about Dave. I thought he was long gone and just a figurehead and Oreck is now owned by a holding company backed with Chinese Money. What's the real story? Thanks Lucky

Lucky1 wrote:

Hello Lucky1:

Thanks for the clarification on the MIELE and ORECK canns. 

Dave is and has been a figure head.  Now in his 80's.  Allowing Judy [who changed her name after the divorce only to change back again] and Tom [her ex] to have the face time at the stores.  Dave is still pictured in all the stores, ads, mail outs and such.  He is still the face of ORECK. 

ORECK, after Katrina in 2005, needed money quickly to keep operations afloat and move locations.  ORECK was on ground zero.  Lost everything.  Chinese investors as you might imagine came to the rescue with the needed capital BUT with stakeholder rights and interests.  Can't fault Dave.  He really didn't have a choice in the matter except to save the company or see it sink.  ORECK family still owns a considerable interest in the company maybe even the majority ownership and Tom leads the company helm. 

As mentioned here by me, Chinese investors are buying up property in Las Vegas at rock bottom prices, paying cash and getting the homes even cheaper than the listing prices and appraisal values [cash money talks].  Such is the world we live in.  Like the now infamous TV ad showing the Chinese professor teaching his students in 2030 about the fall of the mighty financial empires of Greece, Rome and the US.  Chinese own our the majority of our debt now and hence will eventually own us [that's US]?  Wishful thinking on the Chinese?  

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:
You say Panasonic made them under HOOVER  and Eueka, then which models are they?  I will use a quote you used on HARDSELL, "Once again not correct [as usual]". The company that makes "A" HOOVER,  also makes this new ORECK, but not this model/design.  I would like to know what Eureka models are made by this company. 

ORECK sources from different companies and not just one.

Mike_W wrote:

I suspect you are trying to make a point. Rather than just trying I suggest you say what you know to be a fact so we can all be enlightened.  That is after all one of your reasons for monitoring our posts here is it not.  I'm only to happy to admit a mistake if I'm wrong.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Yes, I am trying to get you to answer questions and not give us nonsense.  

Mike_W wrote:

Same old same old from you. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I suspect Carmine, that you're trying to gloss over the fact that whoever makes whoever's machines, Oreck is going to shine superior regardless. End of the day, Oreck can only survive on their hand held portable canisters - ones that they probably produce themselves. If they're a small company then I can see why they would go with other mass brands to make portable pull along wheeled canister vacuums. Whether or not they are made in China has nothing to do with perceived quality - Miele's S4 vacuums can attest to that.

vacmanuk wrote:

No vacmanuk, not at all about holdin ORECK over others. I said for $499 a China made canister [cylinder] as is the Quest even with the ORECK name and backing is not worth the money.  The straight suction model is $299 which as I said is the only model right now available in my area.  Pano, EUREKA, HOOVER and others make the same/similar models as the straight suction Quest under their names at a fraction of the $299 price.  With components like hose and wands and attachments that are same same as the Quest.  Even motor specs and features like the cordwinder.  At that price [$499} I would prefer/buy a USA made/German made cann.  I have also said before here many times that a MIELE made cann in China should not be the same price as a German made MIELE and if so I would pass it up.  Not worth the same $.  That's me, others like you and Mike W. and his fondness for high priced panosonics are entitled to spend your money as you wish.  Mike W. once here called the halo, a China made $499 upright with one year warranty, a good performer despite its high price and weak warranty.  I posted here that retailers' sales people carrying the halo were getting commissions to push it: $50-$100 per sale.  It went belly up in short order and Nick Garcia [halo founder] sold the rights to ORECK after other vacuum makers turned him down.  Mike W. called that one wrong unless of course he was getting commissions on the halo sales.  Don't know for sure just my opinion and observation.  He never mentioned it here.  It's an important sales point and so I did.  Maybe he didn't know.  Give him the benefit of the doubt. And not say he was not up front. 

Carmine D. 

I would add as discussion too that perhaps the S4 is being made in China for MIELE because MIELE plans to scrub the line eventually.  Again, just for discussion as is the subject tab on this site and thread the last I saw/read.  Not as fact unless it turns out to be the case.  And it may.  hard to verify right now.  I don't know it as a fact yet BUT offer as opinion FOR DISCUSSION and it may at some future time become fact and then I'll post it so.

Yes but how does the vacuum perform?

For your info, Miele's original S4 models were made both in China and Germany. It had nothing to do with the model being taken out of production.

vacmanuk wrote:

I didn't say it did.  I offered it up for discussion.  What I said MANY TIMES HERE is a China made MIELE is not worth the same price as a German made MIELE. 

In addition to performance you have to factor in quality and labor costs.  In my way of thinking China made quality is not on parity with German and the labor costs in China [slave wages without the guilt] are not either.   

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
It looks like you came back and changed some things.  I did not recall seeing my name so much.

Yes, I did call the Halo a good performer.  Now, where does that correlate w/not agreeing to the high price or the "weak" warranty?  Anyone can think the Rexair Rainbow is a good machine, but not like the DTD price.  Or, not like the way it is sold, but enjoy using the vacuum cleaner.  A person who knows about vacuum cleaners should talk about many aspects of the machine and everything associated w/it; no matter if it is good or bad.   Anyone reading/hearing about it should be able to understand what is being said, w/o bias. 

Reread my review, in the review section, again Carmine.  I believe I made reference to ORECK and even the HOOVER  Elite.  Everything I said was true.  I could see you making a comment if I had said something like, "You have to get this machine, because it is worth it at any price.  It is even made in China and the price includes a generous one year warranty.  But I did not say that, did I?.  I even talked about the germ-killing capabilities, which I also discussed on the forum.  You failed to mention that.  I am sure, in your mind, I said the germ killing feature will work really well and that everyone will like using it.  Plus, they will use it properly.

You say that the company went "belly up" and I "called that one wrong".  Really?  I did not know that I was responsible for every company I talk about.  I did not know that every person in the world will/should be listening to me.  I gave a good, thorough evaluation of the Halo, but I cannot help how a company markets their product.  You give me too much credit.

In a Halo thread, you said that I got it wrong.  The first company got it wrong, but ORECK came to save the day, because they know how to market it for a niche market.  I tried to get you to explain that reasoning, but you did not.  Now, we are seeing how that is working out.  Actually, the Halo has been off the website for a while now.  It did not just happen.  They are not selling.  They should have marketed it better. 


If some of the "old timers" of the forum recall, I do not tell others to purchase expensive machines.  TOL Panasonics were very good when I recommended them.  When I recommended Rainbows, I told them to go to ebay or visit vac shops in their area.  I did not tell them to call the Rainbow dealer.  Carmine, when you complain about the high price of a particular machine, really think who you should be blaming. Think about it.

I'm not going to re-quote your post.  It's long winded.  I'll just make a few points:  You gave the halo 4 out of 5 stars.  That speaks for itself.  ORECK bought the rights because it was a competitor.  It was a smart move by ORECK.  Marketing it and selling was not ORECK's reason.  ORECK never even pushed the halo.  Just watched it fade away.  What about the sales commissions on halo?  How did you miss that one?  Rather important fact IMHO. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
First, I will address you Carmine.  Like you said, it is only your opinion. 


Now, I want to address this to other business owners.  Would you go out and have something made, so you could market it; knowing that you did not want the product to sell?  I sure would not.  That is not good business for me.

If Halo is competition, then it is a threat to ORECK.  If Halo is a flop, then it is not competition to ORECK, therefore not a threat. It would be pretty stupid and unwise of ORECK to take the Halo and spend a great fortune to market it, if they did not want it on the market. All ORECK would have needed to do is let it die in Halo Technology's hands w/o spending a cent.  Another option would be to purchase the rights and hold onto it, so no other company becomes a "Competitor".

As I have said since the beginning of time,  ORECK purchases  other vacuum cleaners, puts his name on it and sells them for an even higher price.  The Halo is just another example.  Whirlpool was his first.

Mike_W wrote:

Your argument is flawed on its face because you have no idea of the amount associated with the purchase of halo by ORECK.  Obviously, ORECK felt it was in their best business interests to buy the UV-C technolgy in the form of the halo product and sell off the existing inventory while holding the rights to the UV-C technlogy at least for a set period of time certain.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
That's your humble opinion - and YET the Chinese made ones have been rated highly by GHI or CR. It makes no difference to where they are made, Carmine. Miele have already established quality throughout - not all Chinese made things are poor quality.

As a buyer, the last thing on anyone's mind is "labour costs" and the brand names should exude something, either quality, engineering, ease of use etc - lifestyle needs.

vacmanuk wrote:

Just as yours is your opinion.  Again I emphasize one of the key facts for consideration for China made vacuums has to be the price.  You noted here many times that many of the Chinese made vacuums come with the same high prices as their Europe and American made vacuum counterparts.  Although you and I and the whole world know that the Chinese companies pay slave labor wages. 

I offer up for discussion and thought the fact that Consumer Reports in March 2011 has taken a new tact with its vacuum ratings.  While rating Chinese made brands like HOOVER and EUREKA LUX top performers in the upright and canister categories, CR refused to make them best buys.  Why?  Because of the reliability issues of these brands and models.  I have called CR out on this matter on this forum.  Why?  CR needs to be more specific with the details.  If CR intends to make an issue of reliability as part of its ratings and recommendations [along with price and performance] then it should in addition to other details provide the countries of origin of the brands and models that are falling short.   Hold the companies and their Chinese partners accountable for their products, prices and quality. 

Carmine D.

The most recent solo sale by ORECK for the XL Deluxe upright for $199 with free shipping and bags included.  Either through ORECK direcvt or from a local ORECK store subject to availablity.  As I posted here recently.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Why no free hand held with this sale price.  The truth is that "FREE" is expensive with an Oreck.  And to think that Dyson was criticized for deceptive claims.

HARDSELL wrote:

Since we are on a "truth" path, dyson was "ordered" to cease and desist with its untrue product claims else risk legal and monetary consequences.  Dyson corrected its untrue ways.  It saw the light.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Since we are on a "truth" path, dyson was "ordered" to cease and desist with its untrue product claims else risk legal and monetary consequences.  Dyson corrected its untrue ways.  It saw the light.

Carmine D.
I did not expect you to address the false claim by Oreck.  "Truth" seems to be absent from your vocabulary.

HARDSELL wrote:

The ORECK ad speaks for itself.  if you can't read/comprehend then that's your problem.  Don't blame ORECK and others for your own misgivings and shortcomings.  I bought 4 new XL uprights at $150-$199 on different occasions.  All of these purchases came with one year warranty, no headlight, and I had to pay for extra bags and the shipping.  $199 XL deluxe with headlight, ergonomic handle, HEPA bag, with free pack of bags, free shipping, free fragrance, one free tune up and 3 year warranty beats the ORECK deals I got on mine.  But don't take my word for it.  No.  Use your own judgment, if you have it and trust it.  Do your homework and buy what you want.  Since you tried the free ORECK in home trial on 2 seperate occasions, got and kept the free gifts with, but declined the vacuum both times, it took awhile and several times to decide for sure.  Bad judgment??  First time?  Second time?  Maybe that's the truth.    Does the truth hurt?  Blame yourself.  Not the truth and me.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I have a good idea of what it takes to bring something to market.  There is alot  involved.  A good company is not going to market a vacuum cleaner, just to watch it "fade away".  That is very stupid business sense.  I gave an option, in a in a previous post, how ORECK could get that technology.  Well, we could just say that ORECK  get Chinese slave-labor to make the machine, put "oreck" on it, and charge a very high price for the new ORECK Halo.  Remember, when it was brought out, its price tag was higher than the original company's price tag.  What does that tell you about ORECK?

ORECK has nothing to do w/the previous Halo.  After they acquired the rights, they changed different aspects of the machine.  They did not just take the previous and slap their name on it. 

CarmineD wrote:

HARDSELL wrote:
Why no free hand held with this sale price.  The truth is that "FREE" is expensive with an Oreck. 

This is the same thing talked about earlier.  ORECK marketed their upright w/ free canister, that really is not FREE.  They have done this for years.  Other "8lbs." uprights sold alone. For the past several years, ORECK has started following others by offering the separate purchase option, like other brands.
 

Using Carmine's thinking-"COPYING"

CarmineD wrote: I do not know how this is such a great deal, when the whole public does not know about it..  ORECK sends info about sale of their vacuum cleaners to people who already purchased one.  I guess I would also, it I noticed someone who purchased more than two.

I should tell people that they could have gone to Big Lots last week, to purchase a factory refurb XL(w/same headlight) for the price of $99.00

Addition:

Just checked the ORECK website and see that they are offering the present BOL upright alone for $199.00  The offer from Carmine's email offer is a previous model.

Mike_W wrote:

You're absolutely right.  ORECK made several very nice improvements to the old halo and marketed it under its own name.  Actually, when you put the two side by side, there is a resemblance but the ORECK halo was a vast improvement.  I pointed out here that the ORECK halo would have the same hindrances as the original halo and we would have to see what ORECK could do with it.  Never amde predictions except have yo wait and see.  At a minimum, I can say, the ORECK halo lasted much longer on the market than the original halo under Ken Garcia and ORECK still retains the rights to the halo UV-C technology.

Carmine D.

Mike_W wrote:

Yes, but not to my way of thinking but from the industry's and for as long as I can remember.  Vacuum makers copy each other for as long as vacuums have been made and marketed around the world.

Carmine D.

Mike_W wrote:

Just making the point that I posted saying ORECK sells the upright solo with no side kick.  Not just as a duo with the compact canister.  Not saying it is or is not a good buy.  But beats my previous purchases.  It's not for all.  But for those interested with/w-o the iside kick, ORECK does both for marketing and sales.  One or both.  Smart marketing and improved sales for ORECK over the past 3 down years for vacuum sales.

Carmine D.

Mike_W wrote: I do not know how this is such a great deal, when the whole public does not know about it..  ORECK sends info about sale of their vacuum cleaners to people who already purchased one.  I guess I would also, it I noticed someone who purchased more than two.

I should tell people that they could have gone to Big Lots last week, to purchase a factory refurb XL(w/same headlight) for the price of $99.00

Addition:

Just checked the ORECK website and see that they are offering the present BOL upright alone for $199.00  The offer from Carmine's email offer is a previous model.

The XL Element is $199 sans the hand held. They show the Element at $299 to include a free hand held.  Can someone please explain the new definition of "FREE"?

CarmineD wrote:
I can read and comprehend.  Seems as if you can't Read my earlier post a minute ago about free.
I was talking about the free canister, not all the frills you mention to avoid the '"TRUTH" that is not true.
Why would I or anyone take you word as fact?  As Mike said.  You assume too much.  I never used or kept any free gifts from Oreck as you assume and post as fact. 
Now back to the subject.  Where is the free hand held.  Please stick to the subject and not dance around the issue as you always try to do.

HARDSELL wrote:

Sorry, I don't believe you.  You said here in the past you didn't know what you did with them.  Now you change your story.  Maybe you didn't use them and keep them.  But you still got them.  Twice. 

Here's a lesson for you to learn:  Truth leads to wisdom, wisdom leads to right judgment.  The one who doesn't have either is as nothing.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I could care less what you believe.  Now find where I made such a statement or you are lieing as usual.

Only a real dumbass would claim that I got a free gift with the Oreck that I purchased from Target.

So, Mr. nothing, start your search.

HARDSELL wrote:

What a web you weave, when it is you cecide to deceive. 

You claimed according to the timing of your posts here that you took advantage of the free in-home ORECK trials on two occasions [that were long before TARGET carried and sold ORECKs].  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Wrong again Carmine.  I purchased once from an Oreck center and once from Target.  Kept no gifts.  After using the Oreck at home against the DC07 I knew I could win the bet that I later made to win an Oreck.

Now I have said that someone I know very well returned two mail order Orecks and kept the free lamps offered with them.  READ, it was SOMEONE i Know and not ME.

One as deceitful as yourself always attempts to bring others down to your level.  Once again you have become tangled in your own web.

HARDSELL wrote:

I understand.  You have oldtimer's disease and can't remember what you say, said and when.  My apologies to you.  I did not know you were mentally challenged.

Now I understand why you keep buying ORECK's over and over even though you hate the vacuum.    Then can't remember as you said here what you did with the gifts you received, TWICE.

Carmine D.