Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Youtube

Thanks Acerone. I went to Which online and only found a brief review of the DC31. While looking around I did find an article stating the B&D "Flexi" is first being offered to the Japanese market.

The Which video clams the two-speed DC31 to have an 11-minute runtime when run at its lower speed. The higher speed provides more suction but lessens runtime.

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews-ns/handheld-vacuum-cleaners/dyson-dc31/index.jsp

Venson

Dustbuster Flexi sells in Japan for $180 or 17,000 Yen. So far that is all Ihave found out.

                                                                                             Procare

procare wrote:

If the B&D Flexi comes with the lady using it for $180, it's definitely worth the price and I'd buy one.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

A question is whether the 11 minutes run time is the same if the revolving brush is used.  Katie Waller is cutsie, perky and the English accent is nice but she does not demo very well. 

Carmine D.

Well it is only a short introduction Carmine, so it does answer a few queries as she did say from previous owners. If I wasn't a B&D fan though I'd be impressed to give the Dyson a try. This new B&D featured here however looks a lot more compact and I can't wait to see it in the UK.

vacmanuk wrote:

And as Katie Waller said so nicely, the B&D is more versatile than DC31.

Carmine D.

Most of the time I get more info with images than actual verbal prose from others. I know good marketing when I see it having been a marketer in previous jobs with household appliances. I'd say for the most part you're not really going to know what it's like until you have tried it. But in defence of the Which? video it makes the new Dyson look quite good against the compeitition. After all there aren't that many other independent brands shown online with videos, especially from the UK unless they come direct from the manufacturer, e.g Sebo etc.

Hello Vacmanuk:

If Katie would have devoured all the dirt remaining on the test carpet with the DC31, I would most surely agree with you.  It would have put the DC31 in good stead.  Leaving most of the test dirt behind wets the appetite, but raises questions in the mind of the viewers.  Why? 

Carmine D.

For the proportion of time given in the video Carmine, it was purely a short introduction. Yes whilst there was still dirt on the carpet it certainly came up with the pet hair turbo tool attached on the Animal model instead. I think most buyers would realise that anyway as getting up hair on a carpet without a roller brush can be time consuming. I don't think it was a full vacuum demonstration here and as the website does state a "quick trial."

Hi Vacmanuk:

I'm not convinced from the Which? quick trial video that a DC31 brush roll in 11 minutes [6 min if high speed is used] could do a decent job on the pet hair/debris on the test carpet shown.  Depends on the design and operation of the brush roll.  While Katie says the DC31 addresses concerns of users' comments about the short DC16 run time, her demo doesn't prove it does.  If I'm spending the price for a DC31 [$220-$270 w/o attachments], I want visual positive proof not just Katie's words [as appealing to the eye as she is and pleasant are her words].  If I have to pluck down the $ to buy/use a DC31 only to be disappointed [again, as with a $150-$200 DC16] it's going back to the retailer again [just like a DC16]. 

Carmine D. 

Vacmanuk:

Put the Which? Katie Waller video in proper historic perspective. When James intro'ed his DC30/31 on Youtube he had plenty of time to prove all the DC16/handheld critics wrong with his new higher priced handheld product.  He didn't.  Why?  He concentrated on run time improvements and the new motor's clean exhaust w/o carbon brushes.  Not pick-up performance improvements.  Brush roll looks and sounds wonderful to buyers.  But it has to work well to be worthy of buying and keeping.  DC16 wasn't.  DC30/31?  Based on dyson's track record, I have lot's of doubts for the price.  Dyson and James [and Which?] haven't addressed the core question of critics about dyson's cordless brush roll handhelds.  Do they have the capabilities to do adequate clean up jobs for their expected uses for the high prices?  If so, as Venson asks, why does it come with a $2.00 litter picker?

Carmine D.

Carmine,

Bravo!!!!  You’ve done a magnificent job (your anti-Dyson posts above) attempting to yank VacuumUK and other outside readers around (consumers who find this site) with your anti-Dyson rhetoric.  Good job sounding unbiased and even “fair”, no one can twist like you.  Not a peep out of you on the B&D suction strength, clogging filter, lack of rotating brush.  Oh, please explain how the model in the picture or you or any poor sucker who takes your bait (oops, I mean review) cleans a lightweight paper hanging lamp without it pushing or rolling away.   The only way for you to clean this lamp is to hold the B&D in your teeth and use your free hand to steady the lamp.   50 years in the business and you miss the obvious or omit the obvious.

No one can sound as unbiased, professional and concerned as you all the while you unduly and unfairly and inaccurately judge Dyson.

Bravo!!!  El Magnificento Carmine!!! 


DIB

DIB:

Until you remove your head from James' butt, your view won't ever change.

Correction of the factual nature of your post:  I critiqued the Which? video and Katie Waller's demo as well as James' Youtube video with regard to the demonstrations of the DC30/31.  The essence of my criticism has nothing to do with the product per se.  I don't know how it will perform yet.  I know the DC16 is a loser.  Neither video properly addresses the concerns that buyers/users like me have with the DC16.  These DC16 shortcomings are inadequate cleaning capabilities [read power] and run times for most household, garage and car chores.  Especially for the most exorbitant handheld prices of any on the market that is until now.  As I said, I want a demo that provides positive proof that the latest and greatest [and most expensive] is indeed better than the DC16 loser.  The videos don't provide that proof.  The presence of a $2.00 litter picker adjacent to a revolving brush roll [which is Venson's point not mine] does not convince me.  In fact, it provides evidence to the contrary from James himself.  Are you with me yet?

On a positive note, the larger image of the lovely lady demonstrating the B&D Flexi that you posted is proof positive that for the price [$180, if she comes with the B&D Flexi, it is worth the money and I would buy.  Now, please explain to me what part of that comment, which I posted above, has anything whatsoever to do with being anti-dyson?  Or did you miss the point of that post as you do so many others here because your head is still stuck in a location where the sun never shines?

Carmine D.

WRT your "soup" question about the moving lamp shade, perhaps it is connected to a stationary extension tube?  One that doesn't move.  Did that thought/possibility ever cross your mind? 

Carmine D.

BTW: 56 years in the business to be correct. 42 years a vacuum store owner and operator.  14 years as an industry consultant. 

But who's counting except you?

Now, how many years do you have in the vacuum business? Or any business at all.  Or do you slave [I mean work] for a boss/es?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

Heck id buy a dyson if she came with it....now that would justify the price.

Still early,  but kinda seems steep in price  for a B&D vacuum....no cord option either or  [lighter plug in ]...no charge complete light...i like the look of it and  seems more apt to do better in tight spots....but i kinda see it has having the same problems as the dyson....price -cord opt -run time......just my view,  but i see the no cord opt [home -auto ]as the biggest problem with the battery handvacs......adding this option would make these vacs more universal..and make the price more appealing in todays economy.

turtle1

For the straight guys - Miss IFA w/Dyson DDM DC30...

CarmineD wrote:
No, because the typical lamp style cord is clearly visible.  And no, because hard wiring would not typically allow a lamp to be pushed/tilted ever-so slightly and with little preasure (the lamp no longer rests at a right angle to the hanging cord).  And no, because hard wiring a paper or cloth lamp and the costs associated with this is overkill.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB...you win..i like what comes with the dyson better.....she makes me wanna vacuum the house! ...write it off as-my youth an lack of common sence has impared my ability to make rational decisions.

turtle1

DIB:

Your saying so, doesn't make it so!  Nothing unusual/different for you.  The same for most of your spewing off here.  Never makes sense, often is completely wrong, if not silly and having nothing to do with the thread facts and truth. 

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi 'turtle1'

I'd say her hair is as fake as the claim that the dyson handheld she's holding is worth the money.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

The B&D Flexi isn't even turned on.  The lovely lady is merely posing and holding the hose with dusting brush to simulate it's usage.  Did that thought/possibilty ever enter your mind? 

Carmine D.

Best option is to actually buy it and try it. I tried the first Dyson hand held and wasn't impressed with its bulky size. Good suction it has but plenty of noise with it too.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

Wife just barked at me to take out trash and that were going to Wally aft midnight...so back to reality.

turtle1

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello Vacmanuk:

Did you keep/return the DC16? 

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1'

After 37 years of marriage, my dear Wife doesn't have to tell me when to take out trash.  By the way, you may want to take out that fake lady and dyson with the trash.  When you get to W*M take note of what handhelds it stocks and sells.  Let us know please if dyson is there for sale.  I'm thinking not. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

Not a problem...consider it done ...as thats where i go to hang out at first then its off to electronics.....but such a shame to trash a beautiful work of art.......the girl that is.

Married less than 2 yrs..first time -no kids ..either of us...all still new to me ...but my wonderful wife always seems to bring me back to reality Carmine.

turtle1

Hello retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1'

Happy Wife, happy life.  In all things including vacuums!

It's silly that a woman would pose with a dyson handheld in a weapon like stance almost like a trophy.  Clever marketing strategy, perhaps.  Most women loath the earlier DC16 tool-like hand held design, limited clean-ups due to the short run time constraints, noise etc.  More a man's toy but very impratical for most men, especially handy men, due to the short run time [5 minutes] and too high prices [$150-$200].   After 3 years most manufacturers would address all these shortcomings/issues in the new redesign and models, especially at the higher prices.  But dyson's DC30/31 leaves me with many doubts.  More importantly, I shared my dear Wife's perspective on the DC16 in the past.  Persuading her now on the DC30/31 would be a HARDSELL at the current prices.  More likely an impossibity.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Your wife must be an EASYSALE.  Why else would she marry you?

Simple HS:  3 Reasons:  Faith, Hope and Love.  All of which are priceless, like my dear Wife.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

So true Carmine.  Nothing better than a loving wife, kids, family and friends.  All the material things just do not compare.

The new B&D "Flex" (FHV1200) is, after all, available. Price run, as far as I've discovered, is 70 to 90 bucks and the FHV1200's ace in the hole is its dishwasher safe filter. Mind you, I am sure that there are those who quake at the thought of using the family diswasher to clean a vacuum filter but it sounds nice to me. The B&D link follows. Be sure to click on the "View All Photos" link.

http://www.blackanddecker.com/productguide/product-details.aspx?productid=21410&toolview=5#

The following link is for price verification only:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-FHV1200-Flex-Vac/dp/B002FQJW4W/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1252871173&sr=1-18

Venson

Hi Venson:

$70-$90 for the B&D Flex:  Excellent price, thanks for the info.  Don't even need the lovely lady come with for that price.  AND I can buy it without the War Department's approval. 

Carmine D.

Yes, Best Buy has it on sale this week..

CarmineD wrote:
I don't know if you're a James Bond fan, but James "the inventor" Dyson, sometimes reminds me of Q.  If James is going along with the charade, the girl is merely pretending to be a Bond girl with gun and all. 

Acerone wrote:

THAnks, Ace.  I'll check it out.

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

By gosh.... I think you've got!  Yes, I think you've got it!

Bond fan with Sean Connery as Bond!

Carmine D.

Acerone wrote:
Nice price -- 63 bucks. Please note that, per the BB website, it is selling as an "online only" item. The Dyson Root 6 Animal is going for $180.

Venson

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

You find fault in this gorgeous model?  More proof your judgment cannot be trusted.

She does not work for Dyson as you assume, she’s Miss IFA 2009 and works for IFA.  She took many photos with many manufacturers products; if you did your due-diligence you’d know.  More proof your judgment cannot be trusted.


DIB

P.S.  When God makes these beauties, they look spectacular with or without wigs and with or without makeup.  Trust me I know and know it intimately!  I love the all-red IFA look and their all-red Miss IFA look too.

My judgment, DIB, is that she is wearing a wig:  As in fake hair.  What part of my judgment is wrong/in error? 

Since I can't see the rest of her, as I could with the lovely figured B&D lady, not too much more to judge.  Makes me question: What's wrong with her own hair that she prefers a wig?  And a pretty bad one at that!   

She may very well be one of God's creations but a "beauty" is stretching the truth if its's based on the little bit we can see which is a wig and alot of makeup!   I'd say your judgment is reaching beyond the given facts and more into the realm of your imagination!  Why does that not surprise me?

Now, the B&D lady, tho fully covered, has some very beautiful attributes including her own hair.  Most of her attributes despite the clothes, which fit her very well, are clearly revealed and visible w/o need for imagination thanks to the large image you posted.  Worth seeing again.  So here's an encore. 

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:
Retardturtle1,

We can agree on some things for sure (beautiful women and marrying).  I applaud you for getting married early (to me it is early).   One day you’re probably going to want kids and you’re going to want them to be proud of what you do (vac shop ownership or whatever).  Many vac shop guys feel entitled to slander another mans business so to get ahead.  As a kid who watched his father go from janitor to restaurateur and gross over $7-8m per yr. (1986 money), I NEVER ONCE heard him bad-mouth a competitor.  And as you can imagine, he had competition all around and including 40 ft. across the street.  Many of his competitors were his friends.  If lying is part of doing business or as they say…  “it’s only business” then choose another career (your not to old).  Lots (not all) of vac-shop “do-nothin’s”, “never-were’s” and “has-been’s” hang around this site and industry…  haul asssss from these types!!!!  If you cannot do it for you, then do it for your wife and future kids[?].  You’re the man of the household and family – she (and the kids?) will all look to you to deliver.

And if bad-mouthing competitor’s is the way you want to go, then be ready for the day the bad-mouthing dealers to be exposed.  What is to prevent anyone from going online (Youtube) and explaining the vac con’s and margins?  This is a great vulnerability if you think about it.


DIB

DIB:

Do you practice what you preach about the competition brands?  No!  You impugn bagged vacuums as choking on dirt tho most perform better on carpets with a full bag than your fave brand does with an empty bin.  Reference:  ASA finding and ruling that upheld the Electrolux Intensity claim that even with a full bag it's performance is 50 percent better than a dyson DC14 with empty bin.  That's stating the facts.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I love your challenges!!!!!!  If these challenges came outside of the framework of Dyson and/or vacuuming manufacturing and selling, I would not bother...  trust me.

You love antiquities, I love innovation.  I impugn no single manufacturer, they impugn themselves.  Slothfulness, and yours and other vac dealers or vac enthusiasts supporting slothfulness or lack of innovation is theirs and their followers decision, not mine.


DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Your impugning this “looker” is typical when women are out of a mans (your) reach.  I will guess...  dating models and “lookers” was not the norm for you.

If you did your due diligence, you would have a better understanding of life outside of your [small] comfort zone (why she's wearing the red wig).  But why hassle due diligence when you can make things up? - Right Carmine?  Making up stuff is a spill over. - I’m telling you...  a deceitful-vac-shop detox program is recommended.


DIB

P.S.  Do you think the B&D woman's "twins" stand up that way all on their own or are they being helped out and held up (fake[d]) via the miracle of a push-up?  Relax...  You're letting your Dyson animosity get the best of ya (again).  I’m done with this conversation.

DIB:

The only one making things up is you.  Both about the lassies demoing the products and about me.  That's your imagination at work again.  You don't know the facts, can't understand the facts when thay are presented to you and spin all your posts with the "how great dyson and James art."  Here's a tip for you:  Don't forget to look before James' flushes!

Carmine D.

Is it true that 90% of the dyson patents are filed by the marketing department.??

I know the answer already dubba,lets see how your boy bails out of this one,You fake losers..........

MOLE

mole wrote:
I've heard these marketing department patents are some of the best, only to be trumped by department store patents.


DIB

CarmineD wrote:
When you hammer on good things; expect a hammering.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Very true and you should know better than anyone else here.  Your posts, you, and your infantile worship of all things dyson, are hammered and criticized by all posters here always even by dyson buyers/users, of which I am one.  Now you just need to follow your own advice.  Oftentimes more difficult than giving advice to others.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Nice try.

As a husband with a beautiful wife and father with a beautiful girl and coming from this position, I wondered how I’d handle someone taking a shot[s] at them.  I showed much restraint.

You taking a shot[s] at this IFA beauty proves you slave to much animosity (Dyson animosity).  In your defense, many in your industry are inventor wannabe's and they too (Dyson bad-mouthers) can’t innovate themselves (strong product) off the workbench. - Much like the manufacturers they hype and represent.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
So are we to assume that the Dyson handheld is your little girl, and that the DC25 is your wife?  

Certainly it takes a Dyson insider to know the details of the photo shoot. 

DIB:

Let's get back to the lady models and their vacuum products.  One, the B&D lady, is poised to vacuum and looking genuine in the process.  The other, with the dyson handheld, is holding it up like a gun in the ready position to shoot [as in taking pot shots].  My preference is the marketing strategy and props of the B&D vacuum.  I said so here and don't need your permission or agreement.  Me thinsk you doth protest too much.  Like James.  Always looking for someone/something to lash out against with your holier than thou sue'em in court mentality.  How's that working for you and dyson?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine, we aren't really comparing like with like on the models, are we? The B&D photos is an offical product use photo, which will have be set up to a fine degree with location, lighting, and post shoot edits (i.e. photoshop). The 'Dyson' photo appears to simply be opportune photo with 'Miss IFA' as part of a trade show:-

http://images.google.com/images?q=Miss+IFA

This was likely written in to the agreement for the exibition - a small bonus to provide a relvent photo for a news article on the event. Great for the purpose, but hardly comparative with the B&D photo, in this instance. Dyson have a pretty good library of their own product profile / use photos.

Hello M00seUK:

Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't realize that when vacuum makers pay female models/vacuum users to pose with their vacuum products for photo shoots/product ads that they have other reasons in mind besides promoting the sales of their products.  I always thought this was the common denominator by all brand makers who choose femme fatales to pose with their products.  It surely must work.  So many do and have been doing so in the industry for years!

I still vote for the B&D lady, even after viewing the photo gallery for Miss IFA.  You get that way when you are old.  Set in your ways and likes and dislikes.  It's habit forming.

Carmine D. 

M00seUK:

If you have any ads for the new dyson handheld from the dyson library that are better for comparison purposes with the B&D lady, please post here.  Who knows.  Maybe I'll change my mind? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Oh, no contest, I'd much prefer the natural brunette over Miss IFA who looks like she's sporting a red wig.

To mention that Dyson's first television commercial, for the DC01, featured a relatively attractive lady in her mid to late 30s, but rather than simply being the 'eye candy', she was there to explain, to camera, the Dyson bagless benefits in a 'straight-up' manner. The script for said advert was written in-house at Dyson after they despised of creative suggestions puts across from ad agencies. The advert was widely acknowledged for sky rocketing the sales of the cleaner. These days Dyson are said to do all their creative marketing in-house and simply contract in directors to film their TV adverts.

CarmineD wrote:
There might be some photos in Dyson's on-line press release photo library. Alas I don't have a user account to be able to check. I'll let you know if I ever see any online.

M00seUK wrote:

Hello M00seUK:

We have similar tastes in women used in advertising.  At least on these two instances.

ORECK, as in  Dave, always does his own advertising.  Tho, at his age he is slowly passing the advertising to Judy ORECK.  

Carmine D. 

M00seUK wrote:

Thank you.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Lordy NO, I couldn't stand the noise and ended up giving it to the local high school who used it for a period in their wood work classes. It didn't last very long having to suck up fine wood dust I'm told!

vacmanuk wrote:

Comes with a 2 year warranty.  After your gifting to the school, it let dyson off the hook to repair and/or replace under warranty.  Dyson got over on you/school.

Wood working class should be an ideal usage for cordless dyson handhelds if it didn't prematurely choke and die. 

I mentioned on another thread that dyson and Sam's have bundled a DC16 with a DC27 for $479.  Basically gifting the handheld with the a DC27 purchase.  Attempting to salvage sales of dyson's DC27 which are not being bought.  Not sure adding a free DC16 will make a difference.  I was surprised to see the dyson handheld untethered to the shelf next to a DC27 display.  At one time with pilferage of dysons a concern, these $150-$200 dyson toys would be locked down to prevent thiefs from walking off with them.  No more it seems.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

Nope.....no dyson handvacs and no empty space where it could or would be.. i asked the lady working in the dept. about  the dyson and b&d handvacs

...she didnt know they made handvacs,,so i thanked her and moved on. ,,Sorry for the delayed response..we decided to get away for a week or so and head out to the coast for some r&r.

Thanks 'turtle1'  Glad to hear you and your Wife got away for some R&R.

My dear Wife too is back east with her Mom.  I had to stay behind with the 4 legged furry friend. 

W*M and other big box rip off stores don't carry dyson's DC16 and probably won't carry DC30/31.  Perhaps internet sales?  Why?  Too expensive.  Not worth the money.  Too limited in customer interest and appeal.  Dyson messed up the marketing with this product.  Not surprising.  Tho the product really has limited use and lackluster performance.  Dyson has an uphill climb to convince buyers of a DC16 to trade up to a newer one at $220-$270.  The new one does what the old should have for the money and includes an carbon brush exhaust free motor.  It's a handheld.  How much carbon brush exhaust is emitted? Dyson has a knack for taking an irrelevant feature and talking it up with hype.  Allowed him to charge exorbitant prices for the worthless features.

I mentioned on another thread Sam's is gifting a DC 16 with purchase of a DC27 for $479.  Dyson bundles the two specifically for the Sam's promotion.  I'm not convinced gifting an overpriced toy dyson handheld with a $479 dyson sale with improve sales of this model at Sam's.  By Christmas season these dysons will be on discount/clearance for $100 off [at least] with the toy hand held included too. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
vacmanuk wrote:
VacmanUK, just how would Dyson decrease the sound without decreasing suction and withoug increasing weight, size, and costs?

The sound is in relation to much air being moved (the vac's doing a great job moving air/suctioning and doing it better than all cordless handhelds in its class).  You’re preference for quieter cordless handhelds comes at a price…  weaker suction when new and weakening suction as it is being used (it's clogging).

Can you guarantee or state this DC16 was properly used and maintained (per the Dyson manual)?  How many of these students do you think read the manual or were told what the manual said?  Did you personally read the manual to the students or insist the shop teacher did?

Vacuuming and more importantly...  filtering the "fine wood dust" is a non-issue with this vacuum.  It will devour and gladly filter "fine wood dust," all day-every day and do it without loosing any suction strength (as long as it is used and maintained properly - per manual). 


DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I’m embarrassed for you… the entire world is in a recession and struggling.  Can’t you think of anything smart to say?  Bundling and lowering prices is worldwide.  Saying something smart would help your lack of credibility, especially after defending Venson’s dual persona deception (him pretending to be Severus).  Did you notice a sudden drop off of posts after this came out?  You and others need to decide…  defend Venson’s bizarre behavior or build/keep this forum going.   This forum could easily die-on-the-vine.  And if you don't believe me then watch, and watch it die.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

I'm amazed.  I actually agree with something you say: The entire world is in a recession and struggling.  All the rest of what you posted is a waste of time reading.  Especially the part I highlighted.  You have no grasp of vacuums, the vacuum industry, floorcare products, and the people who buy and sell them but you are predicting the demise of this vacuum Forum.  Do you have a date for this sad event or just keeping your prediction open ended?

Carmine D. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Actually DIB Im sure Dyson could easily reduce the noise levels just by adding dampening. It wouldn't take that much money to do it, or at least provide a thicker casing so that it doesn't leak that much noise.

Why do you misread what I've said? Where do I suggest that the students or teacher have to read the manual? Is that going to improve the noise characteristics? It seems to me that with you in particular you can't have any one saying anything bad about Dyson vacums. They are not the most perfect vacuums in the world - you only have to look on EBAY UK to see so many reconditioned units at cheaper cost because people want rid of them. Just because you say "wood dust is a non-issue with this vacuum, it will devour and glady filter fine wood dust," doesn't mean it naturally happens with EVERY hand held produced.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB,

Please provide the proof that you promised about my being Venson - or was it your other personality that was going to provide proof?  I have to admit that I thought briefly about using the username "DysonStinks" as a response to your name.  But I really don't dislike Dyson.

I believe any drop off in posts corresponded to the start of football season, or perhaps the lack of a full moon.  Does Dyson ask you to track the number of posts on this forum each day?  

By the way guys we already seem to have the instruction manual for the Dustbuster Flexi PD1200, the user manual can be downloaded here:

http://service.blackanddecker.co.uk/PDMSDocuments/EU/Docs//docpdf/pd1200%20pd1080_uk.pdf

Specs for this model (according to the website) are:

AIR WATTS 25WATT
CAPACITY 0.500Litres
CHARGE TIME 16HOURS
VOLTAGE 12VOLT

If this is true then sadly it won't be a direct rival for the Dyson DC16 which has a stronger battery for a start! However I'd still be interested in this product as it is a darn sight smaller and more compact.

vacmanuk wrote:
The proof is the pudding . . . Despite Dyson's good performance in one test, the Popular Mechanics video I posted satisfied me by way of good performance and price B&D excelled. I would not spend the kind of money that Dyson is asking for a rechargeable hand-held vac.

The new B&D Flexi is even stronger than the Flex Vac model tested but it has yet to be shown how much power will or won't be lost in the translation due to the hose add-on. Even that considered, an $80 rechargeable vac is far more attractive to shoppers than machines running at 150 bucks and up.

Venson

Hello Vacmanuk, Venson et al.

The airwatts and charge times are just part of the features for comparison of the B&D Flex [$65-$80] and dyson's handhelds [$150-$270].  The key to comparison of these products are the uses that they will serve for their owners.  In that respect they are product rivals and rightly so. 

Having said that, perhaps there is more appreciation for the issues that Consumer Reports faces in rating and ranking handhelds objectively for consumer review and research.

Carmine D.

From time to time you see a no name brand hand vac that offers the recharge/cord/auto option.....for dirt cheap....So why not apply this/these features to the B&D $80 end and without at the $65 end.....this would compinsate for its ok power level and address the biggest issue .....run time.  this option would by far take a chunk out of the comp and perhaps put it on top.....by offering what the others dont .

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:
Dear, dear turtle1,

There's nothing to fret about here. B&D, well-known AND reasonably priced, is already on top. Trust me. How many people do you know that are either willing or prepared to run out and drop approximately 200 bucks on a rechargeable hand-held?

Practicality in price and use is what wins the day here? I'd love to own a Mercedes but if what I can afford happens to be a Chevy, which one am I buying? You know there are only so many of us now crying over our great misfortune that we could only take one trip instead of our usual three to Europe this year.

Ten years ago we were living in a world where splurging now and then somehow could be worked into the budget. Credit possibilities were great. Speaking of the present, for the larger part of us those possibilities are no more.

In even more practical terms, rechargeable vacs still do not produce any where near the results of a regular vacuum costing less than double their price does. They are merely luxuries and please remember that term -- "luxury". Even those who like these new little trinkets can learn to live without them until money is freed up. The real reality now is all about who and how many you have to meet up with and with how much come the first of the month. No makers wondrous claims win out when when the landlord's knocking.

B&D has nothing to fear from Dyson.

Venson

The sales appeal of the B&D Flex, beside the name reocognition and low price, is its versatility and mass marketing.  It will do well despite the bad economic times.

I think it was Lucky1 who made the observation that indies have to adjust and adapt to the changing economic times/hardships to survive.  Same is true of floorcare makers and their product prices.  You can't place a $250 price tag on a 5-10 minute heldheld in hardtimes and expect customers to run to the stores and buy them up.  Ain't gonna happen.

Carmine D. 

Venson wrote:

HI VENSON

I see your point...and very well made at that. ....so true.

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello Venson, 'turtle1:"

The economics of the market place dictate the prices of the products, whether dyson likes it or not.  This is especially true [as you pointed out Venson] in the current economic downturn.  Dyson chose the big box rip off stores as the primary sales venue for dyson products.  Then proceeded year after year to increase its prices of the latest dyson vacuums brought to market.  In a downward spiraling economy?  Globally!  A formula for product sales disaster [even if the products were worth the price and there is considerable proven evidence they are not]. 

Look at the facts:  In 2002, dyson's flagship upright model DC07 All Floors had an MSRP of $439 and quickly dropped to $399 with many retailers offering 10-15-20 off.  The market set the prices at  $321-$360.  Still high for big box rip off stores but consumers were spending freely with a euphoria of perceived wealth from easy credit card buying with delayed and interest free payments, stock value appreciations and skyrocketing home appreciation values. 

Fast forward to 2009.  World of difference.  Record breaking house foreclosures, record high unemployment rates, ever tightening credit, and a severe stock market slump.  Dyson's latest and greatest DC28 is priced at $600, the next lower model is a DC27 [a regurgitated DC17] is $479.  Even with 10-15-20 percent off, these models range from a lo end of $360 to a hi end of $480.  Much too high for the buyers in the market place [big box retail stores] to bear in the current economic conditions that began in the fall of 2007 and continued worsening up thru and including the foreseeable future.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Those rip off big box stores thrive on Flip floppers like you.   FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP.

Hello HS:

Flip, flap, flip, flap, flip, flap.   Your lips are moving but you aren't saying anything to dispute the facts of my post.  Own up for once here and admit that dyson did itself in with bad judgment and poor timing.

To make the connection of my last post to the thread topic, dyson made the same missteps with its handhelds as its uprights.  In 2006, dyson introduced a  DC16 handheld for $150-$200.  At the time, the highest price for a handheld on the market.  It is by all measures a failed product totally unworthy of its price.  Even at $80 it is unworthy.  At least dyson hit the market at the right time despite the poor product performance. 

Fast forward to the present and the worse time for bringing an expensive handheld to market.  What does dyson do?  Launch a $220-$270 handheld.  Dyson just doesn't get it!  The same failed past practices get the same bad results.   

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

My topic was you and not Dyson.  You flip around telling all about the great sales at big box stores.  Then you flop around and call the big box stores rip offs.

Fish flip flop when removed from water.  You have smelled fiushy for a long time.

Hello HS:

You're jealous of me here because I know and appreciate all the facets of the vacuum industry: Indys and big box rip off stores.  And I have reliable knowlegeable connections in both venues.  Like you and your lawn mower shop only me with vacuums rather than lawn mowers. 

BTW, thank you for making me the subject of your posts here rather than the vacuum products and retailers who sell them.  I'm honored to be so important. 

Now, do you have anything else to say about my post and dyson's ill fated product/marketing strategy at the big box rip off stores?  Or just more of your lips going flip flap flip flap.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

You smell your fave vacuum brand going down the toilet.  Like DIB look before you flush!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Actually Carmine I don't recall mentioning anything about a real comparison. All I said was that in reflection to what Dyson's hand held offers the B&D is lower powered. I'd still consider it over the Dyson in terms of it's general design. Infact in terms of Dyson's pricing consumers in the last three years have bought nothing else but the Dyson hand held certainly here in the UK and it has nothing to do with brand preference; many UK buyers felt let down when Dyson shifted manufacture to Asia leaving the UK out in the cold. Sadly even though it may well be expensive; buyers will get what they think is the best, regardless of the price.

Hello Vacmanuk:

Which? made the comparison of these the two brands/models: B&D Flexi handheld and dyson DC31.  James Dyson made the comparison of the B&D pivot handheld and DC31.  Both comparisons have their limitations.  Something Consumer Reports appreciates when comparing handhelds. 

WRT consumers buying what they believe is the best regardless of the price...........I concur..... UNLESS the price is way too high for the category of products.  Then they think twice, three and four times before purchasing.  Dyson's DC31 for $220-$270 falls into that category, IMHO.  You may very well be right with consumers and a DC16 at $150-$200.  Some, not many, consumers would buy at that price IF they believed a DC16 is really better.  It's fair and correct to say that dyson launched the DC31 in large part as an improvement of its DC16.  Sadly, customers burned by the purchase of a DC16, like you, would be the likely consumers to buy and now are hard pressed to buy a new improved version [as promised by dyson] for almost $100 more.  Even if they had money to burn, and I can't imagine many handheld consumers fall into that category.   Too many other handhelds, like B&D, on the market, just as good or better, at less money.  And just as importantly, other vacuum options too at $220-$270.  Consumers will most probably say rather than limiting my options with a $250 handheld, buy a full size vacuum that has tools to accomodate the cleaning needs of a handheld. 

Dyson may very well be counting on the new brushless motor to warrant the exorbitant price of its DC31 and the increase in price over a Dc16.  I wouldn't and don't.  Customers are not impressed with hyped technologies that don't have a direct effect on product performance when the price is considerably higher than the competition.  A cleaner exhaust on a handheld is not a riveting improvement for the environment and users.  Not when it runs for 5-10 minutes at a time and is a handheld vacuum.

Carmine D. 

Carmine
Some good thoughts here; however neither of us are in a position to truly judge what the world are buying and certainly when I worked for Which? (Many years ago and found them to be flawed because companies like Hoover and Vax went to the bother of blackmail money to promote their products), there tended to be a balance between what is in the market already (existing) and newer products claiming to do a task better.

I hear what you are saying about how Dyson has a cheek to charge more money for what is effectively a slight improvement but it's not as if it's an industry where marketing and design go hand in hand ALONE; each time a car manufacturer announces a facelift it raises the prices accordingly and owners of the older model are forced to think if they really should go to the bother of replacing their existing model with a new one. I can think of a perfect example at the moment such as Volvo's new C30...(I have a C70!)

If what you are saying is entirely correct then most buyers then would be buying the best Miele vacuum money can buy; yet the best selling model in many European countries is their S5 Cat and Dog model as it comes with different floorheads against the high flying Revolution model and as you know that comes with an electric power head. The same could be applied to many other brands where the most expensive isn't the best. However in terms of actual brands this thought can be easily reversed; high end products in the Electrolux range (UK where we have Eureka models, Boss and anything else under the U.S Umbrella marketed purely as an Electrolux) tend to be better made than the cheap end of the market and buyers don't always buy on the best suction but models that have a generally overall and universal appeal based on many merits such as weight, noise, ease of emptying and so on.

I don't however see your point when comparing a full size vacuum cleaner with a hand held, regardless of the price. What will happen when the user may need to clean something high up? Balance the upright/cylinder on a chair? Cordless hand helds will never replace main size vacuums so it is a bit unfair to suggest so and in some ways you seem to miss the fact that cordless hand helds have slightly different cleaning tasks compared to full size vacuums. At least try and compare like with like to emphasize your argument.

At the end of the day with the variety of products on offer, Dyson has every right to charge whatever price the company feels but the company are not alone in doing this.

"...Customers are not impressed with hyped technologies that don't have a direct effect on product performance when the price is considerably higher than the competition.."

That same statement could well be applied to the Kirby vacuums that are £1000 in the UK and remain the highest and most expensive vacuum we can buy domestically. However in my mind it is not the best for smaller countries and at its weight and numerous attachments that most UK buyers seldom use, the Kirby cleaning system is a bit of a waste of money unless you're literally sucked in by all the marketing that goes with it.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello Vacmanuk:

Let's agree to disagree in part on some of the issues.  On the above statement, let me further clarify.   Every home needs [must have] a vacuum.  Every home does not need [must have] a handheld.  Handhelds are a convenience cleaning appliance that complements the repertoire of cleaning products already in a home.  By convenience you should read quick and easy to use in a hurry to do "ad hoc" clean ups rather than pulling out the big vacuum.  The primary benefit of handhelds are a time and effort saver around the home. 

The benefits [conveniences] have to gat weighed against the costs.  How much are typical average consumers willing to pay for the convenience of not pulling out the big home vacuum?  $100, $150, maybe?  $220-$270, whoa!  Let's rethink this convenience cost.  I have a perfectly good big vacuum with tools.  I'll pull out the big vacuum and forego the convenience of a handheld if it costs me $250.   Or better still, my big vacuum has some age on it, perhaps for the price of a DC31, $220-$270, I'll upgrade to a new big size vacuum rather than a handheld.  Keep and use the old one as a spare, or in the garage.  Rather than buy a convenient handheld for the garage and car cleaning.  Hope that assists with clarifying my thinking on the pricing of handhelds.

Carmine D.

I wonder how much premium prices were added to vacuum cleaners once they could be developed to take bags? Spare a thought there!

vacmanuk wrote:

In the 50's, Vacmanuk, when paper bags were intro'ed they were usually an addition to an already cloth bag vacuum.  The premium was the cost of the bags, not the product using them.  To mention several brands of vacuums that were cloth and upgraded with paper bag inserts [fit inside the cloth]:  GE swivel top canns, Lux XXX tanks, EUREKA canns, and Compact canns.  Uprights like HOOVER were still offered in both venues [cloth and paper] in the early 50's and for a short time HOOVER offered 2 upright models with the reusable paper bags.  Not until the mid to late 50's with the HOOVER upright Convertibles and Lux 60/Auto E, were cloth bags no longer available as OEM and paper was the standard.  The prices for the products with only paper bags were comparable with the prices for vacuum products equipped with the cloth bags.  No price premium for paper except for the cost of bags.  The benefit of the paper bags was their convenience over the cloths.  The cost for the paper bag products was the additional time, effort and cost to buy the bags.

Carmine D.

PS:  As a comparison, vacuums that were already using a paper bags vice cloths in the 50's, like the Lewyt canns, EUREKA and SINGER uprights, and the HOOVER Constellations [model 81] sold for the same prices if not less than the brands/models with cloth bags and cloth-paper bags.  Essentially no premium prices for products with paper bags over the cloths. 

I opine then that the next question you may have is what technology in the vacuum industry rated premium prices over the conventional selling vacuums.  I'll leave that discussion for another time. 

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello Vacmanuk:

As a door to door seller, with financing available from KIRBY thru GE Credit, comparing an all metal KIRBY made in the USA with a plastic foreign made big box retail selling vacuum has limited similarities [at least in the USA].   Why?  Selling venues are very different.  KIRBY has authorized KIRBY dealers who repair.  Not independents authorized by KIRBY, tho many indies work on and sell KIRBY parts.  Keep in the mind the KIRBY reconditioning contract too.  Basically restores [reconditions] the original KIRBY to like new condition for a fixed fee set at the time of purchase.  AN insurance policy if you will that regardless of what fate befalls your KIRBY, you can have it redone to original specs and condition for a fixed fee.  Talk to loyal KIRBY customers and inevitably this is a feature they have used and liked.

Carmine D.

MM interesting. In the UK if you buy from any of the mass brands you'd get a year's guarantee by default and one more if you pay by card. Then if it goes wrong you'd be charged by the company concerned OR if like Sebo or Dyson you're covered for 5 years plus. Miele however do things differently; only a select number of their vacuums are guaranteed for more than a year and you need to pay extra to have 10 years guarantee cover.

The rebuild service on KIRBY's is separate and distinct from the warranty which also comes with KIRBY.  It's a KIRBY only feature that has been used for all the years I know the vacuum industry.

Carmine D. 

Hi,

The rechargeable B&D Flex crossed my mind today and I found a few user reviews at Amazon.com. Link follows:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-FHV1200-Cordless-Ultra-Compact/product-reviews/B002FQJW4W/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Best,

Venson

Dustbuster Flex selling at Wal*Mart stores for $65.  And selling they are. 

No dyson hand helds.  None.  Not carried. 

Carmine D.