Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I just picked up a 2012 Honda HS928K1WA. I just replaced my Yamaha YS828 and am clueless  on Honda's Hydro-static trans..

How do you use it?? If I put it is what would be speed 3 and engage the clutch it clunks and does an instant engagement. There is no slipping the clutch so to speak no matter how slow I engage it or how fast.  OR do I have to always have to have it in neutral and ease it up to speed every time I have to start out. If so, that would suck. HELP!!

It's easier to start out with the lever close to the neutral postion. If you have the lever in the fast forward postion, the machine will tend to jerk a bit when you engage the drive lever. I've never had a Yamaha but I would imagine that it's pretty similar in the way it functions.

I do the same way as FrankMA.  Start out in Neutral and ease the lever to the desired speed.  Much smoother and easier on the drivetrain.

Just give yourself time to adjust to the new machine.  That drive lever shouldn't be your biggest problem.  It's the chute rotation, turn crank left to rotate the chute right.  :)  Try rotating the chute while turning the snowblower, WITH TRACKS!!!, and the pedals.    Took me 2 years to get used to it.  Now its just natural.  Just like riding a motorcycle or flying a helicopter, you need a few extra brain cells and alertness. 

The 88 Yamaha had the common disc drive and could be smooth clutched into starting. Even if you rammed the clutch down you would get a smooth start that would not hammer the tranny.  I would of figured the Honda would have a valve that would ease it up to the set speed. If you ask me it is a BIG time fail. Honda should of had Steve Jobs design the Hydro drive and it would have been done right!!!! There is no need to have to ease up speed if the trans was designed right the first time. It would not of taken much to do it right. it would of taken someone up high that would want perfection and user friendlyness. I will get use to it I guess.

For me it has not a problem since I am used to it by now.  The main advantage over my old MTD is that I can reverse and go forward with an ease.  It is interesting to get a different perspective from a Yamaha user.  Maybe it was a bad idea going from Yamaha to Honda. 

Welcome to the forum, are you from NJ?

There are Honda owners on this forum that are not even aware of this BIG fail.  Surprising Honda had not received complaints about this more often.  Maybe the 2012 model comes with racing clutch, which can be abrupt?

Honda is typically and fashionably slow in making changes to their product.  They don't have the budget to hire visionaries like Steve Jobs, nor would he be interested.  Honda has never aimed for perfection, their snowblowers are already quite expensive and quirky.

The library closes in 5 min...

I would of went with a Yamaha,  but they are only available in Canada,  track drive only,  and I want wheel because of having  two small driveways with lots of 180 turning.  A 9hp is $3,800, to 4,000 So that is out of the question.  I know  there is no option because you get what you get, but defending a bad design of implementation because you are a Honda fan makes no sense.
I know I will get use to it, but having to pull back the speed handle every dam time you let off the clutch seems like a half ass way of design. It is missing a key element to make it work like the rest of the snowblowers in the world. Having a valve that brings on the oil flow from 0 to 100% in 2 to 3 seconds to stop the clunk  and save the abuse on the tranny would seems so logical. This valve would work going  any speed you  would preset your  snowblower at. FWD or REV.  Problem solved and then it would run like any other snowblower.

How do you know people have not complained? Why would not any of you see it? I did, right away when I brought it home, and I am  just an average guy.   I will be sending an  email off to Honda so at least they get one complaint for a better way of implementation of the Hydro-drive. I know by the end of the season it will be like driving a clutched car and I won't even notice it, but at first glance it seems they could of went one step further to make it right. We are paying the premium for a Honda.  BUT then again, there is the Acura TL and Odyssey tranny issue that plagues those models too. Honda needs to fire their  tranny guys, it seems to be their only real problem as a whole. Everything else is top notch.

When chewing up an end of the driveway  that a snowplow left I may engage the clutch 4-5 times while chewing up the massive snow heap. I will have to change my style to a less aggressive Mr. Rodgers way of snow blowing :) ( joke, don't take it in the wrong way)


http://old.nabble.com/file/p31817286/2011_SB_YS928J_l.jpg


http://www.abbysguide.com/ope/discussions/55741-0-1.html

Perhaps the problem is specific to your snowblower.  I've had not noticed that it was abrupt.  I don't expect to do clutch dumps on a regular basis on a $2500+ snowblower.

Maybe you should try testing out another snowblower at the dealer to see if it behaves the same.  If it doesn't, then maybe your unit needs work or adjusting.  If it does the same thing, decide if you can tolerate it and get used to it, learn how to feather the clutch, or ease the drive lever to speed.  If not, try other brands, do a clutch dump on all of them and see which one is the softest.

I'm not trying to defend how Honda implement their hydrostatic transmission, I never operated a Yamaha with hydro trans so I don't know if the Yamaha handles clutch dump as gracefully.  Maybe Honda should put in a slipper clutch or hydraulic bypass valve.  Who knows?  Perhaps the next generation of Honda snowblower should be a softer and kinder design.

I am waiting till I run it on the first snow. I will call the dealer that is 50 miles away and see what they say.  As for my old  Yamaha, it was a conventional disc drive, not hydro-drive.  The new Yamaha's are Hydro.  I will ask the question on the Yamaha board and see what the new Yamaha's are like.


HERE IS WHAT I POSTED ON THE YAMAHA BOARD

I need a description or characteristics of how the Yamaha hydro drive works.

Here is why. I just bought a 2012 Honda 9hp two-stage  wheel model to replace my 1988 YS828. It has a hydro trans. I am just curious how the Yamaha's is compared to the Honda's. My problem is the tranny on the Honda clunks and does an instant engagement with no slipping to start with when you push in the clutch like I do on my YS828 and any other snowblower I have owned or used.  Even feathering doesn't work.  I posted this weird characteristic on a  board with a lot of Honda users and  it seems some of the Honda guys have to pull back the hydro drive "speed" lever to neutral every time they let go of the clutch  so they can engage the clutch and THEN advance the speed lever to go from  zero to what ever speed they pick. Otherwise the trans violently engages if you just push in the clutch like any other "disc drive" snowblower that has smooth engagement.  Some think I could have a bad tranny ( I will call dealer Monday)  

Too many people for my liking  seem to do the pull back to neutral and THEN engage the clutch and push on the speed lever to make me think this is a design flaw that everyone has lived with. If so it is a crap design and an incomplete design. The more logical design would be to add a valve that would increase flow from zero to 100% in 2 to 3 seconds to what ever the speed lever was set at when the clutch was engaged. This includes FWD or REV. This would make starting a smooth affair and wouldn't hammer the trans.  Then it would run like any other snowblower that I have ever seen or used.

Always having a hand on the speed lever and dicking around with it seems flawed to me.


How do the Yamaha's with hrdro tranny's work, like Honda above???

    At least on my three machines the clutch can be feathered but no where as easily as on a friction disk implementation.  With practice it would probably be easy to feather but why bother?

    When I do start off in high it's usually only to travel so a quick start is no problem. 

   Inserting a delay would be a bother most of the time when you just want to get going.  Maybe Honda could install and adjustable delay, voice activated. 

Voiced activated via iPhone using Siri.

Well...you guys down south are stll way behind.  Rumour here in Canada that the new Honda RC928TAC (only in Canada) will have remote start so you can start it without leaving your warm house.  And then.....the remote also controls operation and that means you can sit in your living room and control it while the snow flys.  Just like those RC airplanes the kids fly.   Eat your hearts out.  But still no drift cutters as standard equipment.

Then I will have to wait till the snow flies to get some user time on it to see if I can get it to engage without the  clunk. I think I do have to then except that it is a Honda and one of the only things they suck at is automatic transmissions, no difference here too I guess.  Thanks for the help.

Whoha wrote:
I'm not fond of Honda (automobile) brakes, engine power, or styling (Acura!).  They don't suck at it, but aren't great either.   

Transmission, yes, they do suck at that.  

I have a 2001 accord and at 35,000 miles, I had to have the tranny rebuilt.But Honda took care of it and I had the tranny warranty extended to 100,000 miles.I now have 177,000 miles and she purs like a kitten.bullet proof engine....... crappy tranny....

I called the dealer and talked to a service guy,  said  just try to ease it on slowly as best you can. He knows it is not the most refined trans, but says they don't get many trashed trans even though it seems to hammer the trans a bit.  So that's that!

@Whoha,

Where did you buy your Honda HS928WAS from?

Whoha wrote:

I had a 928TAS and yours sounds nothing like mine. The tranny in mine was very smooth, no hammering required.

I have a 928wa 724wa 624wa and an 1132ta. All smooth and I love the trans. Nothing better. Forward to reverse any speed no releasing the clutch.

Whoha wrote:
Have you tried another Honda at the dealer?  If the problem is your snowblower, I would insist on having the dealer correct it or swap you another one, while he still have one.

Whoha wrote:

I would be more than happy check it out for you if want so contact me in private.  I am only 12 - 14 miles from Minneapolis.  Just let me know.

MN_Runner wrote:
I may take that up with you after the first snowfall if I fell this drive system is not right. I think I need some user time on it before I do anything. I am 3 miles away from the Mall of America.

Whoha wrote:

So what dealer did you get your Honda from?

Moon

Just curious, why would you drive 50 miles to go there when there are many near your home base?

Whoha wrote:

No  hybrostatic transmissions should not act as yours is doing.   When you squeeze down the clutch, you are just sending the power to your hydrostatic transmission .

   The lever is your drive speed selector. You use this lever to go forward or reverse at any speed that you select without releasing the clutch. 

Engagement should be  smooth .

Not sure but sounds like you have the lever in forward position maybe 3/4 the way and then squeeze the lever? And if this is what you are saying then you will have a quick jerk.  You should have it  close to the center position when you start out. Without releasing the clutch move it to the speed you like.

MN_Runner wrote:
I PM you.

Knee_Biter wrote:
Yes, 1/2 to 1/2 plus. That is what I was saying in my first posts.  I was saying  why not design it the right way the first time.  All it would of taken is another or added bleeder valve to send the pressure from zero to 100% in 1 to 2 seconds. and you could be at full open speed setting with a VERY smooth transition to speed if done right.  That would completely fix the issue of "double handing"  the speed on every turn.  I have  two short driveways and I am always turning 180 degs.  What a  totally illogical way of design. I am going to have to live with it  and it will become a way of life like driving a clutched car.

 I am a guy who always looks at design and implementation of design into  products. So this is a big time fail for my way of thinking. I know many of you are fine with it. Kind of like so many people are fine with plastic PC's, I want an Apple machined out of billet aluminum.  I expected more  of design polish then that tranny, it is incomplete and not fully thought out and implemented if you have to always pull back the speed lever before restarting.   No need for people to get pissed off at me, it is my opinion and I feel I am right to expect a fully functioning tranny when paying high dollar from a premium manufacture. It is just  so easy to see that "adding a step" that is a pain in the  rear  to start out makes zero sense. It seems you all have adapted as will I, but why should we have to add a step because of bad design?

This is the first time I have heard this complaint.  I use My Honda's more than my Ariens with 6 speed because I like the way the Hydro works.  Next time try it before buying it.  Wouldnt buy a car without driving it.  Maybe you can add the valve you mention and make it the way you want.  Many of us modify our machines.

I will get use to it. Just like all of you guys.  I already cut in new gear notches into the shoot to get 230+ deg turning radius.

Do you have any pictures?

Pictures of what? The shoot gear cutting?

YES.  Would like to see how you modified it.

I think Honda hydrostatic drive is the most user friendly.  It has very fine adjustability and ability to go from forward to reverse without declutching is great.  Plus, there's no stiff gates to wiggle the lever in and out of.  Its so smooth I can change the speed while turning.

They have the crispness of the engagement just right, for me.  There is two things that I think they could improve or change.  Forward and reverse maximum speeds.  Reverse is really slow, especially on tracked models, for liability reasons.

Honda warns you NOT to push the machine with the engine off Unless you throw the disengage lever located between the handles way down low on the rear of the machine or you will severely damage the transmission.  If you have a transmission that is NOT damaged by some moron at the dealer pushing it, the machine should always engage the wheels smoothly, silently.  If you are not getting that result have the dealer check the machine for what is wrong with it.  

Here are the pics of the shoot modification. I used a Dremel Multi Tool to cut the teeth out. The cutter on the below link of the tool has the non hardened wood blade on it, I used the hardened metal cutting blade that looks the same.

http://media.marketwire.com/attachments/201008/632547_CordlessDremelMulti-Max_3-4view.jpg



See how far back the shoot goes now. It swings back the same both ways now. You must file off the  added metal that is used as a stop for the worm gear to the same as the rest of the shoot were the gears are.




http://www.walleyecentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=798&pictureid=7308


http://www.walleyecentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=798&pictureid=7309

Nice work and pictures.  You are a professional as I could not discern between your and the factory cuts.  The blue machine (Yamaha) looks good too.  No snow for some time in the Twin Cities - I mowed the lawn yesterday and have never mowed this late in the season.

You bought a $ 3000.00 Snowblower, and Obviously did not read and understand the Owners Manual.   Once the engine is running the transmission engages by the simple movement of the forward and reverse control lever, PROVIDING that you have placed the transmission lever located between the handles and almost underneath the back of the machine in the "ENGAGE", and Not The "DIS-ENGAGE" position.  I use a broom handle to move that lever.  Once you do this the transmission requires no additional " Understanding " as it will be maintenance free beyond the very RARE addition of fluid when it eventually needs some, which is not very often.  The owners manual is written so anyone can understand the operation of the machine, perhaps read it a few times with a friend till you understand what it tells you.

New_Yorker,

When are you going to show us your Honda snowblower that you been hiding inside the library? 

New_Yorker wrote:
What PLANET are you on? Read the owners manual before buying, I am not "professor ANAL and smart BY A HALF"  It is a snowblower.  I am very mechanically inclined, I had a business for some time as an Audi mechanic/owner. I can wire and  plumb a house in code, so BUYING a snowblower without reading the owners manual seems ok to ME.  Yes, it was a surprised that the Honda engineers could be so inept in their transmission design. Common design logic would dictate that you would not want to ADD a step to your hands while powering a snowblower. Common design logic would also dictate to use a bleeder valve to NOT to  produce an instant on scenario that would be hard on the trans.  How common 2-stage snowblowers work is time tested, adding another step that gives you operational LESS CONTROL  and calling it BETTER is ASININE.  Who cares if it is a Honda or an Apple computer  with great design thought instilled into their products.   A Lexus with a CV style transmission that you would always have to have one hand on to advance your speed from the center console,  INSTEAD  of the foot pedal is a bad design even though it is a Lexus.  And being a fanboy defending a illogical design flaw seems DUMB to me. No need to get pissed at me, it is just my opinion, and I disagree with others that this IS a design flaw. Like I said I will get use to it.  Yamaha doesn't sell in the USA and Yamaha only makes track drive now. I don't like track drives. So Honda is the next choice even if it is flawed.

Whoha,

Don't waster your energy and time on New_Yorker as he does not even own a snowblower.  He likes to read manuals online when he has an access to internet at his local library.

I dont see the problem with my 926 track model.  It just goes at watever speed is selected when you clutch it.  No clumk at all, but I rarely start out at a very fast speed and generally blow snow at reduced speeds.  Even on clean concrete - no clunk but it will stress out your shoulders if its set fast.  Just gotta be careful its not unexpectedly in full reverse when you do the clutch thing or youll get track marks all over yurself.

@Whoha

Interesting username.    All in the same, its either a playground or a toxic waste zone.  The creator has an amazing sense of humor.

I was quite surprised you used a Dremel to cut out few extra notches on the chute ring, although I know why extra rotation is desired.  That take some guts or insanity.  Most people wouldn't have the heart to hack a brand new snowblower that hasn't even seen a snowflake or has gone through an oil change. 

If the transmission is really an issue, there should be a lot more people b*tching and whining about it.  It's not like Honda snowblower were just released last year.

Again, I would suggest getting your new snowblower checked out or at least compare how an identical HS928 transmission operates.  It's not necessary to call Honda engineers INEPT across the board because of an isolated problem.  Not that I need to defend engineers for whatever reasons, but if you're dropping $2500 on a snowblower that is still in warranty, it's the least you can do before mudslinging.

What is H1?

Hummer H1

MN_Runner wrote:
H1 would be the original Humvy

Sorry, I am an Air Force guy.

No problem, I'm just a civilian who's not up to date with  the  latest Jane's publications.  :)

Sorry for another question.  What do you mean by "Jane's publication"?  It is not a common phrase in MN.

MN_Runner wrote:

Jane's is a series of books on military weapons of all sorts. It's an exhaustive resource and they cover everything you can imagine.

Here is a link if it's military Jane's has it.

http://www.amazon.com/Janes-Tanks-Combat-Vehicles-Recognition/dp/0004724526

http://articles.janes.com/articles/indepth/jiw.html

http://jawa.janes.com/public/jawa/index.shtml

The meager  snowfall in Minneapolis gave me some user time on my Honda, I did 3 driveways. Here is what I found out with that very very short time of use.  I found that I need to always be around  1/4 throttle to engage the trans. Going from fwd to rev is great and is fluid.   I am having a hard time relearning the right hand shoot turning handle. It seems just SO unnatural. Time will change that. With such little wet snow I have only that to go by on how this Honda is compared in performance  to my Yamaha. As it sits with this snowfall I feel the Yamaha can throw snow farther, and has more torque,  but it is a new tight motor, so I will have to give it time to break-in the motor.
I did do some heavy load runs on a bike path next to my house. I would throw snow directly in front of the snowblower so I could put a nice load on the motor to start the proper high load piston ring break-in procedure. If we have wimpy snowfalls and I can't get a good load on the machine I will keep doing the bike path runs so I can break the motor in right. I will be doing my first oil change today.

I did notice that the Honda has a very conservative governor system.  After about 5 hours of break-in time I think I will turn up the rpm another 200rpms. Depending on how the governor system is designed, this may help that issue out.

In order to be familiar with Janes publications you need to be a defense contractor or someone who watches news a lot. :D

Whoha wrote:
Whoha,
"high load piston ring break-in procedure" seems really interesting and exotic.  It would be great if you can take a CT scan pre and post of the procedure since intra-operative MRI maybe too dangerous.

:D That is how people in MN talk? All technical...

There are specific ways that are tried and true "in the real world " of engine building and are considered  "best practices". Believe  it or not, it gets to the common at large community and it is completely opposite of the best practices way of doing things because they think the manual is right and nothing can deviate from it.  It is because  people completely believe the manual and the service guy/manager as gospel.  I use to build engines for or car club and was going to become an engine machinist before I went down another fork in the road when I was younger.  When I was younger and before the internet, I had a 20 minute conversation on engine building and break-in procedure  with Mario Andretti's chief engine builder when Mario was just after his prime.  This  break-in procedure is time tested and is done by all high performance engine builders to date and works right down to your lawnmower, or should I say snowblower because you would have to fill the bag and get the mower deck full of grass mulch to load that machine.

Honda Marine had massive issues with badly broken in marine engines because of following the "baby a new motor" scenario.  They were getting a ton of engines "making oil" because the rings did not get seated from the "baby a new motor" procedure of breaking-in. They then told those people, change your oil,  go do a ton of zero to full throttle starts to load the rings to finally break the rings in right. They only do the babying way of break-in because if a motor is overly tight you could have an issue on their end for warranty on 5,000  to 30,000 units, it is an actuarial  issue to them.


Rod and crank bearings are broken in in about 10 to 15 minutes of running. Most of these small engines have no true bearings and use the actual material  of the rod itself as the bearing, except small rodend bearings at best. Then your break-in is all about seating piston rings and the ONLY way to do that is high load. When I built my motors I would let them run for 5 minutes before taking to the streets, then after 20 minutes of driving with some light loading at low rpm I would go to this large double hill in my area. I would be in second gear and go up the hill and be at WOT and keep the rpms at 4,000 with my foot in the brakes. I would do this about 6-8 times multiple times as not to piss off the home owners and even do it on flat areas to load the rings. That is what they do on the dyno when they break-in race motors.  Breaking-in a motor is all about seating the piston rings,  Period! Then you go home and dump the oil. Millions of very fine metal particals from the cylinder cross hatching that are getting worn off are  are smaller then 10 micron  are passing through your filter at this time. The most wear on a motor is in it's first hours of life. 

It is not a secret, but here is one of many who know the right way to do it. Example second link.


http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

http://www.helmethairblog.com/tips-and-tricks/how-to-break-in-your-engine-the-proper-way/


Another scenario are car and truck brake break-in or bedding.  The common person ( and some service managers)  think you have to baby brakes to brake them in.  Wrong, the way to do "best practices"  break-in procedure is run them for about 15 mins driving around town. Then you need to do hwy runs of 60 to 70 mph down to zero multiple times to smoke your brakes. You could  have a lot  of smoke coming off your brakes and the average person has to pick the right place and time to do this. ( that is why they don't tell you to do this, it could be dangerous for most people to do)  You must not stop after this and let the brake pads sit at a stop sign or park your car. You must then drive to cool down your brakes to a common driving temperature. As per link.

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm



Things are not always as they seem, and what the manufacture tells you is not always right, EVEN if it is in the manual.  The right way can have safety issues and $$ issues for manufactures,  so the common guy gets the wrong procedure that is cast into folklore as the right way to do it. When it is not the best way to do it.

.

You sound like a true professional as I am totally out of your league on this.  Whatever you said sounds interesting and special; I just wish I had some serious CPU to understand it all.  Perhaps trouts or Borat can explain your statements for a common person to understand it.

Whoha wrote:
YOU, are one of those people who imagine that YOU have all the answers, so the real question is why are YOU here asking anybody anything, since YOU claim to know Far More than the Honda Engineers who built the Best Snowblower anyone in America can buy ?  That transmission is the best power control design on two stage snowblowers, and it is child like in its operation, requiring only the reading of the owners manual to grasp, or the simple use of it but one time.   Asinine would be buying a device you consider asinine in design, and then belly-aching about it in an effort to impress everyone about all you know about such machines. I bought the same machine after learning it was far and away the superior design for snowblowers, despite the added cost of that superior design.  I applaud the Honda engineers and design professionals for building a better mousetrap, and I love the machines ability and performance which seems to coincide with every owners review I've ever read, except for yours.

New_Yorker wrote:
That about sum it up.  The mousetrap is obviously flawed but Dr. Who will make it better with Formula 1 race proven practices. 

At least there is an evidence that Whoha actually owns a said snowblower and not like New_Yorkers and his friendly ghost friends with imaginary snowblowers.

aa335 wrote:
Better watch out Bernie Ecclestone might want to sue you for suggesting that someone else use his precious Formula One race proven practices. 

You might have figured I am not a big Bernie fan

blumonster wrote:

My mother was the head librarian in our city, so i spent a lot of time at the library which was huge. I found the Janes series of books to be really cool. They were reference books so you couldn't take them out of the library.