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Severus


If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...

Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397

whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Original Message   Dec 18, 2009 5:22 pm
Looking back over the past year, one thing conspicuously absent from this forum is a rabid Rainbow enthusiast.  Perhaps it is difficult to justify the outrageous price of these door to door wonders.   To some extent, a Rainbow owner has to believe in the Rainbow sales pitch and doesn't want to be confronted with any negative information about the Rainbow.    I also noticed that overstock.com is no longer selling the refurbished Rainbow SE's with the Wesselwerks small power nozzles.    Given the economy, it's got to be tough selling $2000+ vacuums - even if they can purify one's home. 

The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable.  The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking. 
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HARDSELL


Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #102   Jan 18, 2010 10:02 pm
CarmineD wrote:
HS:

Thanks for answering SEVERUS's question.  Let me clarify a statement that you made and attributed to me:  ORECK is my "lightweight"vacuum of choice, not my vacuum of choice.  For rugs, that would be the HOOVER WT.  My problem with your vacuum of choice [which I owned and/or used in my own two homes] is that dyson's pitch is superior to the product.  Lose the DC07 clutch, which dyson eventually did, and price at $150-$200 and your vacuum of choice would be an ideal bagless upright for all big box store venues.

PS:  I'm always amused and unimpressed when others, especially you, speak for me and/or impute words and meanings to me.  By now one thing you ought to know, even as a friend, is that I can do a much better job speaking for myself  on all matters, especially vacuums, than you can do speaking for me.  Hence the reason I requested that you answer the question SEVERUS posed to you rather than answering for you.

Carmine D.


Carmine you have no problem speaking for yourself or others.  Problem is you are twist your words to suit the occasion.  Hence, the reason I repeated what you have said so many times.

I almost forgot Carmine.  Your NPD is showing no sign of improvement.

This message was modified Jan 18, 2010 by HARDSELL
Severus


If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...

Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #103   Jan 19, 2010 12:17 am
CarmineD wrote:
HS:

Thanks for answering SEVERUS's question.  Let me clarify a statement that you made and attributed to me:  ORECK is my "lightweight"vacuum of choice, not my vacuum of choice.  For rugs, that would be the HOOVER WT.  My problem with your vacuum of choice [which I owned and/or used in my own two homes] is that dyson's pitch is superior to the product.  Lose the DC07 clutch, which dyson eventually did, and price at $150-$200 and your vacuum of choice would be an ideal bagless upright for all big box store venues.

PS:  I'm always amused and unimpressed when others, especially you, speak for me and/or impute words and meanings to me.  By now one thing you ought to know, even as a friend, is that I can do a much better job speaking for myself  on all matters, especially vacuums, than you can do speaking for me.  Hence the reason I requested that you answer the question SEVERUS posed to you rather than answering for you.

Carmine D.


 Hardsell didn't mention his cost of ownership with the Dyson, but it's not uncommon for Dyson user's to have very low cost of ownership.  IF most Dyson owners don't have to buy additional filters or supplies over a 5 year ownership period, doesn't it seems reasonable for Dyson to charge more money up front?   When people pay over $2000 for some door to door brands, it's hard to fault an inventor for trying to cash in before his patents expire.  Venson has documented the high cost of Miele vacuum tools and supplies.  Greed more than anything else is what drives people to take the risk to start a business.  If Dyson can convince consumers to part with $500 for a vacuum, I'm not going to criticize him for it.  Compared to what government does to us, at least buying a Dyson is voluntary.

The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable.  The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking. 
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #104   Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
HS:


If you repeated what I said, I'd have no reason to post.  Talk about me twisting words?  You must have majored in philosophy in college.  You gave an answer to the SEVERUS question but didn't provide any meaningful information.  The question is: 

Severus wrote:

Hardsell,

Regardless of price, what vacuum do you think provides the best bang for the buck?  What has the minimum level of quality and features that would you feel that your purchase wasn't a disappointment?

Depends on the user is your answer?  Then, my friend any vacuum brand and model may be correct answers.  Do you believe that is the case?  If so, why argue/debate here the pros and cons of brands/models.  They're all equally good, despite the price differences.  As long as users' requirements are satisfied reasonably.  Right?    Wrong!

Consumer Reports answers/tries to answer the SEVERUS question for most vacuum buyers.  You always take umbrage with CR.  Impugn it constantly ad infinitum.  Yet, given the chance, you don't provide a meaningful answer/option.     

Carmine D.

This message was modified Jan 19, 2010 by CarmineD
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #105   Jan 19, 2010 6:51 am
Severus wrote:
 Hardsell didn't mention his cost of ownership with the Dyson, but it's not uncommon for Dyson user's to have very low cost of ownership.  IF most Dyson owners don't have to buy additional filters or supplies over a 5 year ownership period, doesn't it seems reasonable for Dyson to charge more money up front?   When people pay over $2000 for some door to door brands, it's hard to fault an inventor for trying to cash in before his patents expire.  Venson has documented the high cost of Miele vacuum tools and supplies.  Greed more than anything else is what drives people to take the risk to start a business.  If Dyson can convince consumers to part with $500 for a vacuum, I'm not going to criticize him for it.  Compared to what government does to us, at least buying a Dyson is voluntary.



Hi SEVERUS;

In theory, I agree with your premise that Sir James can charge $500 plus for a dyson to recoup R&D costs IF 5 year maintenance costs are minimal.  However that's not the case in real life.  Dysons launched on the market in the USA in April 2002 and thru August 15, 2006 [over 4 years] with a 2 year warranty.   The high repair/costly problem with dyson models is the clutch: $80-$150.  For the most part, these problem prone clutch models [DC07 and DC14] sold with ONLY a 2 year warranty.   They are failing after 2 years and before 5 years and are out of warranty.  These are the dyson models that abound in vacuum stores for repairs and are left unclaimed by customers due to costs and frustrations by customers.  These are also the dyson refurbs sold pervasively everywhere including dyson Web Site to recoup clutch repair costs.  Consumer Reports has not reported on these yet.  The infamous clutch is a a chink in the dyson price theory and in the CR vacuum repair reliability data.

Carmine D.

This message was modified Jan 19, 2010 by CarmineD
Severus


If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...

Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #106   Jan 19, 2010 9:58 am
CarmineD wrote:
Hi SEVERUS;

In theory, I agree with your premise that Sir James can charge $500 plus for a dyson to recoup R&D costs IF 5 year maintenance costs are minimal.  However that's not the case in real life.  Dysons launched on the market in the USA in April 2002 and thru August 15, 2006 [over 4 years] with a 2 year warranty.   The high repair/costly problem with dyson models is the clutch: $80-$150.  For the most part, these problem prone clutch models [DC07 and DC14] sold with ONLY a 2 year warranty.   They are failing after 2 years and before 5 years and are out of warranty.  These are the dyson models that abound in vacuum stores for repairs and are left unclaimed by customers due to costs and frustrations by customers.  These are also the dyson refurbs sold pervasively everywhere including dyson Web Site to recoup clutch repair costs.  Consumer Reports has not reported on these yet.  The infamous clutch is a a chink in the dyson price theory and in the CR vacuum repair reliability data.

Carmine D.


Carmine,

I guess my point is that market forces will determine the number of vacuums sold at a given price point. I can't find the link, but David Oreck gave a speech at a business school, and he predicted the downward spiral of competitors who dropped price and the ensuing pressures to cut costs.  

The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable.  The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking. 
HARDSELL


Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #107   Jan 19, 2010 10:07 am
CarmineD wrote:
HS:


If you repeated what I said, I'd have no reason to post.  Talk about me twisting words?  You must have majored in philosophy in college.  You gave an answer to the SEVERUS question but didn't provide any meaningful information.  The question is: 

Depends on the user is your answer?  Then, my friend any vacuum brand and model may be correct answers.  Do you believe that is the case?  If so, why argue/debate here the pros and cons of brands/models.  They're all equally good, despite the price differences.  As long as users' requirements are satisfied reasonably.  Right?    Wrong!

Consumer Reports answers/tries to answer the SEVERUS question for most vacuum buyers.  You always take umbrage with CR.  Impugn it constantly ad infinitum.  Yet, given the chance, you don't provide a meaningful answer/option.     

Carmine D.


Carmine, you harped on Hoover for years.  They fell on their a$$.  In desperation you chose Oreck in another attempt to find something that could best Dyson.  You even compared the two in your reviews on this site.  You have established that you use the Oreck regularly in any conversation that mentioned Oreck.  In fact you have stated that it is necessary to use it almost daily to keep carpet clean.  I can read without a major in philosophy.  I responded to Severus and he hasn't complained.  If not for your NPD you would likely sit quietly.

I never said they were equally good.  Hell, some folks prefer spam to steak.  Don't forget that not all can afford higher quality so what they can afford is best for them.  There is no definitive best or worst to my knowledge.  Perhaps you can list them for us.  I will say that Oreck falls to the bottom of my list.  How's that for starting another pissing match?

Notice how CR rates products.  They can tie in performance. Yet one can be purchased in their color of preference and they give the extra points to that one.  Go Clown Reports.

Lucky1


Joined: Jan 2, 2008
Points: 271

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #108   Jan 19, 2010 10:43 am
Severus wrote:
 Hardsell didn't mention his cost of ownership with the Dyson, but it's not uncommon for Dyson user's to have very low cost of ownership.  IF most Dyson owners don't have to buy additional filters or supplies over a 5 year ownership period, doesn't it seems reasonable for Dyson to charge more money up front?   When people pay over $2000 for some door to door brands, it's hard to fault an inventor for trying to cash in before his patents expire.  Venson has documented the high cost of Miele vacuum tools and supplies.  Greed more than anything else is what drives people to take the risk to start a business.  If Dyson can convince consumers to part with $500 for a vacuum, I'm not going to criticize him for it.  Compared to what government does to us, at least buying a Dyson is voluntary.


My complaints against Dyson are Company related more so than product related but that said, several expenses I have seen with owning a dyson besides Belt/Clutch is buyers believe their Dyson to be Maintenance Free resulting in clogged HEPA's that need to be replaced $22-$30, new Washable filter that has been ruined because of lack of maintenance $20, Frequent Cleaning $50-$90 and worst the cost to ship the vacuum for warranty Service because they can't get it serviced by the store they bought it from. In Miele's benefit most of the repairs are on older machines 5,10+ years old. Usually past the life span of most other vacuums.
Severus


If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...

Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #109   Jan 19, 2010 12:02 pm
Lucky1 wrote:
My complaints against Dyson are Company related more so than product related but that said, several expenses I have seen with owning a dyson besides Belt/Clutch is buyers believe their Dyson to be Maintenance Free resulting in clogged HEPA's that need to be replaced $22-$30, new Washable filter that has been ruined because of lack of maintenance $20, Frequent Cleaning $50-$90 and worst the cost to ship the vacuum for warranty Service because they can't get it serviced by the store they bought it from. In Miele's benefit most of the repairs are on older machines 5,10+ years old. Usually past the life span of most other vacuums.

If you believe Consumer Reports survey on reliability, Dyson does fairly well.  I don't have any way of knowing the percentage of Dyson owners with clutch failures.  However, the newer Dysons don't seem to have the clutches.   It would be interesting to see what the typical 5 year cost of a Dyson versus other vacuums really is.

Certainly as a repair person you only see the problem machines.  I can't say that I have much sympathy for those who abuse their vacuums (i.e. fail to maintain filters).    One of the moderators (MikeW) used to harp about taking good care of your vacuum, if you want it to take care of you.  Certainly a customers lack of maintenance can be a profit center for independents, so that's not such a bad thing either.

I have no problem with Miele charging a fortune for their supplies.  If you buy a Miele, you know up front that you will pay through the nose for certain things.  It goes along with the prestige of owning a Miele. 

The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable.  The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking. 
procare


Joined: Jul 16, 2009
Points: 192

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #110   Jan 19, 2010 12:15 pm
   I find it kind of funny that Dyson claims to have developed the first "tank vac" . A so called Dyson cyclonic 3 in 1. Sucks water- dust. They said tho the 3 in 1s were very popular ( Rainbow  and clones) James wanted to go workon on uprights and canisters. The "tank vac" looked like a Rainbow. So much for originality.
Severus


If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...

Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397

Re: whatever happened to the Rainbow enthusiasts
Reply #111   Jan 19, 2010 1:23 pm
procare wrote:
   I find it kind of funny that Dyson claims to have developed the first "tank vac" . A so called Dyson cyclonic 3 in 1. Sucks water- dust. They said tho the 3 in 1s were very popular ( Rainbow  and clones) James wanted to go workon on uprights and canisters. The "tank vac" looked like a Rainbow. So much for originality.

Tom Gasko said that Dyson would be served well by hiring a vacuum historian.  More evidence that he was right... 

The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable.  The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking. 
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