Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

According to the experts who research and follow such matters, 80 percent of on-line buyers read on-line user reviews.  The Federal Trade Commission [FTC] will issue new guidelines for on-line posters/reviewers.  FTC warns that many of the user reviews are company employees and paid advertisers who post as personal users.  Always positive reviews, of course.  Surprise surprise!  Paid users and persons with a vested interest [read employees] will have to disclose their relationship with the company and its products.  Fines for infractions can be hefty.  As much as $300,000 and more for first time offenders.  Ouch! 

FTC advises that shoppers and buyers use more than on-line reviews to research the products [read industry experts]. 

Carmine D.

Carmine,

   You are right about the on line user reviews. To many sound like a salesman advertising their product. When I read one that has criticism ,you can tell it is by a competitor because they use language of a salesman to put their point across, sometimes almost laughable. But only to another  salesman. When looking up reviews about cleaners I see the words unbiased opinion. When I look at the sight,  what are they selling and giving their opinion about? Usally products they want you to buy. Not unbiased. When I give my opinion I like to be honest. I also won't tell you something that misrepresents me or any one company. Some people say this product is bad and they don't always look at the big picture of why it is good. That is why there are so many brands out there.

                                                                                                                                  Procare 

Did the mention manufacturers that only post the positive reviews.  Oreck must delete all the negative ones.

That is as bad as any other.

Hello Procare:

Like me, most who read and post regularly here, know that you are a vacuum industry professional with over half a century experience.  It's a testament to you and the company whose products you sell that you are a loyal and faithful advocate for the same brand after all these years.  More importantly all the while not impugning the competition in the process but being an honest broker for your brand.  Contrast yours with other self-proclaimed industry pros who in a quarter of the time have jumped from one brand to another and every time they do proclaim that the latest is the best.  Casts doubt and credibility on their sincerity.  I value your posts.  Thank you.

WRT the FTC's research/findings.  Apparently one of the areas where it is cracking down is the practice of giving away new products to users during product launches and marketing blitzes.  The companies veil the freebies under the umbrella of "market testing."  Not true according to the FTC.  These exchanges, according to the FTC, are in actuality quid pro quo exchanges.  Give us good product reviews and you get the products for free.  The FTC considers this form of endorsement as a form of paid advertising.  Under the new FTC rules, the users who get these products and post reviews, positive/negative, have to disclose the product exchanges that they have with the companies.  An excellent idea to maintain an even playing field.

Carmine D.

Actually I concur! Not all online review companies have such systems in place where members have to write a review only stating the good and leaving out the bad. I write for many online review companies, least not Epinions in the U.S, Helium and Dooyoo.co.uk (infact I have about 100 reviews on vacuums on Dooyoo!) However I've also been asked if my reviews could appear on marketing websites such as www.foreverbetter.co.uk which is a European outfit website that deals specifically with Miele products since Miele own them and I agree what has been said about reviews that only show up the positives here - Miele UK promised me a trial of their S7 in 2007 but the delay of the model to the UK meant I never got to trial it and if it wasn't for a neighbour down the road who actually bought one and swapped for a Sebo Felix in the end, I wouldn't have been able to test it out. Even now Miele's sponsored website will not show that particular review about the S7 of which I wrote on Dooyoo.co.uk and put a condensed version on here.

CarmineD wrote:

You are the perfect example. HOOVER HOOVER HOOVER, FLIP ORECK, FLOP ORECK

FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP

HS:

Your lips are still flapping but as usual nothing intelligent is coming out of your mouth.

Here is a simple, statement of factual opinion, that I and others have preached and posted here for years.   

"The HOOVER Windtunnel is the gold standard for rug cleaning and grooming and the ORECK upright is the industry icon for lightweight uprights."   

I have concluded that the HOOVER and ORECK brands are so stuck in your craw, even your fave bagless vacuum brand can't do anything about it.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

The issues and concerns, as I read and understand the FTC [which by law dictates the USA rules and regs for product advertisements], are that the posters who appear to be average every day buyers and users are really company employees and/or paid endorsers/advertisers of the company.  These category of "posters" have to disclose any relationships with the company/products when posting about them else risk hefty fines.  This levels the playing field for readers who rely on the reviews for decision making.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

I provided a very positive review about my XL Classic to ORECK.  It didn't use mine either.  So I posted it here on this site:

http://www.abbysguide.com/vacuum/reviews/305-0-1.html

Since this was imported from a previous site, the poster name is 'admin.'  But it's me.  If you read it, you see much of the same verbage I've posted here about my ORECK experience so even you and DIB can make the connection accurately and be correct. 

Did you actually post/message a negative review after using your ORECK free in your home and returning?  I looked here on this page and didn't find one by you.  In fact, I don't see any reviews by you even for your fave dyson bagless.  Why not post your ORECK review here instead of complaining that ORECK deletes all the negative ones. 

Carmine D.

Carmine and friends,

                                    I am a a salesman that over the years has had an opportunity to sell other brands that I have competed against. A State Sales Manager job for Rainbow income $150,000 a year , Selling for Kirby, TriStar, Eureka, Dirt Devil, Royal,and Dyson. No one could give me a product loyalty, Fewer services, customer satsfaction and overall good product that I sell. If money was all I was after Rainbow would have had me years ago.

            A 39 page canned speech to the consumer that was filled with half truths was not for me. I went for 90% sales made in the home. 99.97% of customers are satisfied. 98% of my customers are willing to buy non floor care products. Even in this weak economy sales are up.

                                                                        Procare

HARDSELL wrote:

ID say online reviews are very helpful....but this forum and the people in it are actually the real deal.  Hundredes of years of knowledge...just a question away.......will weed out the hype and send you in the right direction. Knowledge based beyond that of the average ....collector/groupie/manufacturer.....cant get any better than the people who work/worked on them...thousands and thousands of them..and love doing it ....no how no way youll ever get that at a bbx store or review site....

A review site used also with this forum.....and a good vac shop is a winner...youll come out ahead of the rest because youve bought the best from the best.

turtle1

Hello Procare:

In all the years I had my store [almost 43], I became friends and business associates with 2 sales people from your company.  If I mention their names, you would probably know at least one and probably both.  They were loyal to their brand and their customers.  And the vacuum industry.  Like you, they relished the challenge of matching their products to the competition.  They thrived on it.

I also knew many sales people from the other vacuum brands.  Most came and went quickly save one who rose to the mangement ranks at HOOVER.  For most, it was a job and a livelihood only.  Not a life long passion. 

I also knew sales people from other professions who I became friends with over the many years.  The great ones were the ones who liked people from all walks of life, and liked selling their products, and really enjoyed bringing both together at every and all opportunities.  It was never about the money.  It was about a way of living life.

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi 'turtle1'

I'd say like the 12volt bulb for HOOVER celebrities and other vacuum brands, you got it right again! 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I found the 12 volt info and gave you the info.  So much for the pro.

The online review is good if the people are honest. I also like to find out people's opinions and talk  to the consumer. When I go knocking on doors I hear the same line. They say"If you're selling Kirby keep on walking." They let me talk to them when I say I don't.   A lot of Kirbys are sold but the people tell they bought to get them out of the house after 4-5 hours in their house.  I can't say a reviewer should say 100% that there are no issues on their purchase as on any survey. You want the manufacturer to have a new plateau to reach. The key thing I see in door to door sales is the way sales people are taught to communicate. The guidelines given usually are changed by the salesmen when he is no longer being trained and feels he knows better how to sell than the company.  Training Discs and tapes don't tell you to push, push,push, but to answer the questions asked and answer them by showing what your equipment is capable of doing. That is the way to sell. Prove to the consumer it will fit their needs and if it doesn't thank them for their time and go on. Nothing on the market is 100% made for everybody and to do everything. That goes for anyone that is a Dyson fan that thinks it will do anything for everyone.

                                                                                                                                                 Procare

HARDSELL wrote:

On this one HS you're right.  When I saw the reference to the HOOVER concepts, it all clicked and came back to me.  My memory is not what it was.  I thanked you then for the bulb link you posted but you only get an honorable mention.  All the kudos go to 'turtle1' who made the point initially and posted the 12 v bulb applications in current brands and models.  

We learn valuable life lessons with age and experience.  One is that we are never too old to learn.  Another is that the smarter we become the more we realize that we don't know everything [and/or our memory forgets what we once knew].  This is true even for the pros, especially the retired pros.  It's nice to know that the new generation of vacuum industry experts, like 'turtle1', are ready, able, and willing to take over.

Carmine D.

procare wrote:

Hello Procare:

I blame dyson for this.  It demeaned and impugned bagged brands to make itself appear superior and thereby charge exorbitant prices for lackluster products.  The strategy back fired.  Bagged sales are overtaking bagless sales at all price points in the vacuum industry increasing year over year.  By dug its own grave.  It can't produce and market bagged brands to make up the sales shortfall.  Unless it tries to pull a Starbucks.  And dyson is no Starbucks.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE/PROCARE

You can only stick it to the people for so long.....eventually it comes back around. [CARMA] ....no matter what.  At one time dyson vacs were everywhere....now you hardly see  them at any of the stores around here....except BIG LOTS....who i believe has the largest display of unsold dysons around town.

I try to make it a point to ask the customer bringing in a vac /buying an item.....what they like/dislke about what they have......no matter what the brand...just to learn more and get numerous views and what they would change. A long term use point of view.  Many like what they have..and thats all that matters,,i just want to know why.

Ive heard good/bad stories of door to door sales.....it really takes a special kind of person for that job...very special.

Our new 1yr old Starbucks just shut down yesterday......gonna miss my large coffee w/ 2 espresso shots...sad day in hollywood.

turtle1

Hi 'turtle1'

SB built its business on the real deal, brewed coffee.  It's entered the instant coffee market with Vie.  Why?  For the same reason that your favorite 1 year old SB store bit the dust.  SB is looking for new markets to bolster sales and revenues.  Here too, SB stores are closing.  Expanded too quickly and too costly.  Like dyson.

Dyson can't jump into the bagged vacuum market.  Not after bad mouthing bags.  Can't expand into the indies.  Burned those bridges years ago.   Dumb dyson moves.  Limited its venue to strictly bagless and the big box rip off stores, period.   That limited its customer base which also limited its sales market and its revenues.  Read niche vacuum and niche market.  You never want to limit your possibilities in business.  You want to keep all your options open always.   You never know what's ahead in the future. 

Carmine D.

You want to see MY Oreck review, Carmine?

About 5000 or so consumers who are not Epinions members have seen it:

http://www.epinions.com/review/hmgd-Large_Appliances-All-Vacuum_Cleaners-Oreck_XL2200_Vacuum/content_347381730948

vacmanuk wrote:

I noticed you called Oreck an electric sweeper.  Is that similar to my calling it an electric broom?

Do you think Oreck is good for deeper pile carpet and deep cleaning them?

vacmanuk wrote:

I didn't ask YOU specifically because you've posted here about ORECK before and I read them already. 

ORECK is the lightweight icon of the industry.  Not as good as SIMPLICITY/RICCAR but as good if not better than the HOOVER Platinum lightweight bagged.  That's my view.  For you and others to read it.  Same same I've always said and posted.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Better than a DC07 pink with its ratcheting clutch and wimpy brush bar and self-adjusting head nozzle that sinks so far into the pile the brush roll won't revolve.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

As Procare said.  The Dyson does not do all for everyone.  Neither doe the Oreck.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

You're changing Procare's statement to suit yourself.  Looks and sounds like more back peddling and pay toilet shuffling on your part. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Not sure how you describe back peddling.  Are you saying that the Oreck is best for all?

Procare is talking about dyson not ORECK.  YOU INFER AND IMPLY ORECK based on Procare's statement.  I don't.  Nor did Procare.  That's back peddling and pay toilet shuffling on your part.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:
I have revised my post.  I do however think that Procare would agree. Otherwise he would be selling Oreck since he is interested in selling the consumer what he believes to be an excellent product.

Thank you HS.  I stand on my post as is and unchanged.

Carmine D.

Hardsell and Carmine,

            Oreck is an electric sweeper and not an electric broom. My statement about Dyson was for Dyson fans but it is meant to imply all vacuum cleaners will not suit 100% of the people. Its like I think Abe Lincoln said-You can fool some of the people all the time but not all the people all the time. That is pretty close.

                                                                                 Procare

procare wrote:

Hello Procare:

Well said.  ORECK doesn't make claims to its customers that are ruled false, disengenuous and out right lies.   ORECK doesn't say its the best for everybody.  ORECK makes one and only one promise and stands behind it:  If you don't an ORECK after using in your home for 30 days, return it free, no cost for shipping and handling, and keep the giveaways at ORECK's expense.   That's a simple, no nonsense, no hype, no hawk, and no lies, seller's promise.  

What puzzles me is that a seemingly intelligent consumer can do this and then complain about ORECK for 3 years and still after doing it.  No one forced it on him.  He wasn't charged for it or the giveaways which he keeps free.  he's ahead for all intents and purposes.  But still is a cry baby over it for more than 3 years.  Like saying a bagless dyson DC07 is the best dyson ever made but sells it knowing he doesn't like any other dysons on the market and uses the proceeds to buy a bagged brand.  I wonder what words of wisdom Abe would have for him?

Carmine D.

Apparently, we are a gentler and kinder group of critics especially our neighbors across the pond.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125470172872063071.html

Enjoy, but ..........................

this article may explain in part th reasons:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125475547130664753.html

Both appeared on the front page of the WSJ on consecutive days.  I'm not a proponent of fed regs and rules to monitor and set human ethical behavior.  In part because we can always figure out ways to get around the rules and regs if we really have that in mind.  Such is the case here with the FTC.  You can probably come up with a few ways for people to be recipients of gifts and bennies thru third party friends and family who legally don't have to disclose the facts. 

Carmine D.