Vacuum Cleaners Discussions |
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procare
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
Points: 192
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What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Original Message Sep 4, 2009 1:20 pm |
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Since I have been coming to this site I have seen bickering about Dyson, Hoover and a few other brands. But to me it is why is this industry important and why all the different brands and models. My feeling is that they are necessary to maintain a way of life. Cleanliness, health, and just plain keeping everything nice. We started with dirt floors, went to rock and wood floors. Floors were kept up with brooms for hundreds of years. With the advent of electricity the vacuum cleaner came along with elecrtic motors. Just so you know , I am aware of the types of early sweepers from the late 1800's. So the question I put to you is why is it so important to be a bagless society of Dyson? Why Bagged? Why a particular brand over another? Give me and anyone that comes to this site some answers as to why and how is one better than another? I am watching and listening. Procare 54 years in the business and still going strong.
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Lucky1
Joined: Jan 2, 2008
Points: 271
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #1 Sep 4, 2009 3:55 pm |
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I will only give a short sample of the what's & whys of the issue but I could discuss for hours if so inclined.
Basically the Bagless Vacuum serves 1 main purpose and it's not to save the customer $'s on bags. It's to fit a business model that ......"value=price". The previous business Model that "Service, Quality, Repairability, Brand Loyalty etc=Profit" does not offer QUICK ENOUGH FINANCIAL RETURN.
1 You can now sell a Vacuum in a box-no demo, no qualified sales person, no parts, no service, no repairs, no accountability. SALE boom SHORT TERM PROFIT...NEXT! You can even sell it by being a faceless entity just by posting a picture on a computer.
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Venson
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #2 Sep 4, 2009 4:49 pm |
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Since I have been coming to this site I have seen bickering about Dyson, Hoover and a few other brands. But to me it is why is this industry important and why all the different brands and models. My feeling is that they are necessary to maintain a way of life. Cleanliness, health, and just plain keeping everything nice. We started with dirt floors, went to rock and wood floors. Floors were kept up with brooms for hundreds of years. With the advent of electricity the vacuum cleaner came along with elecrtic motors.</p><p>Just so you know , I am aware of the types of early sweepers from the late 1800's.</p><p>So the question I put to you is why is it so important to be a bagless society of Dyson? Why Bagged? Why a particular brand over another? Give me and anyone that comes to this site some answers as to why and how is one better than another?</p><p>I am watching and listening. Procare 54 years in the business and still going strong.</p><p>
Hi Procare, Congratulations on your long tenure in the vacuum business and, speaking for myself, I'm always glad to learn your outlook on things. A good vacuum cleaner is any machine that satisfies the user in the long run and across the spectrum of tasks it used to accomplish. It also encourages its use as opposed to causing the user to avoid using it. This brand versus that brand is an issue only for some and mostly leads to debate similar to those having to do with apples and oranges or why not vanilla instead of chocolate. The sense of trust fostered by old familiar names like Hoover, Eureka and Electrolux (no matter who owns them now) may motivate a certain part of the public to buy. Many new names riding on new claims of benefit may influence the same on the basis not so much on trust but faith in technology. Basically all, at least at first, has more to do with strong and continued advertising. Nonetheless, per a prior post, I stick to my guns and say it's all about getting the job done satisfactorily and quickly. There has never been a concrete way to judge the worthwhileness of one machine over another in the eye of a specific vacuum owner. As you date back to an era prior high-watt motors and power nozzles, I am sure that you can recall the Kirby or Air-Way owner -- two totally different machines -- that felt she had the ultimate cleaning machine and wouldn't have traded for a truckload of very popular Hoovers. Or the staunch Rexair user that felt there was not a thing better in the world. And of course, think of all those Electrolux users as far back as the 1920s that felt and still feel the brand is great just because it was good enough for Mom whom I'd wager never once gave a lecture on deep cleaning, HEPA filters or aerodynamics. Despite the estimated four billion spent annually to acquire them, many Americans still don't see need for a vacuum at all if they don't own carpeting. Most consumers that do merely want a vacuum cleaner no matter the myriad of claims. They merely want to get their machine of choice out of the closet and back in within the least time frame possible for the work required. Digging deep to rout sub-surface dirt and carpet destroying grit, running riot on dust mites are all nice as long as the machine that does it doesn't cost a lot. In the end result, as long as the top of the rug looks clean or the machines picks up what it's been directed toward, you've got happy campers. We're now living in a world where there are less and less all-day stay-at-homes with either time or the inclination to concentrate on a perfect state of clean. (Most folks at home these days are out of work and can't afford to do much shopping.) There are just too many other things requiring attention. The bagless issue is more a selling trap than anything else. Its mention to would-be buyers implies that they only pay once and never again. No more bags -- no more cost. However we know that this is incorrect thinking after the fine print has been read. Many bagless machines require the eventual replacement of expensive filtering medium plus possibly brushrolls and belts over the life of the cleaner. Many bagless brands also require special or extra care to prove useful in the long run. On the other hand, we're expected to bow to mysticism served up per a manufacturer's say-so and accept that the air in our home will be rendered toxic unless we regularly put out fifty bucks for more for high-grade filters or three to four bucks a pop on special bags. We forget how many generations prior managed to get by on old bagged Electroluxes, Hoovers and similar machines -- then glorified but now referred to as dust blowers -- and that the incidence of asthma was less during their time. Vacuum cleaners are and have been a boon in that they have allowed us more flights of fancy as regards interior decoration and design. Imaging having to uninstall wall-to-wall carpeting every spring to beat it clean. Impossible! The well-designed ones have indeed upped the ante in regard to dust and litter capture and containment. However, they have not necessarily made housework less labor intensive and there are still any number of everyday occurences, even handhelds considered, where it is far more practical to grab a dust cloth or broom and dustpan to accomplish a simple task in short order. Putting the question another way, why do we need so many brands and models when it comes to cars, or tires or gasoline? Because commerce demands it more than the consumer it would appear. Business competition, competitor to competitor, has always called for the breeding of our dissatisfaction with the others product. This certainly stands true in the area of auto manufacture so why not in the area of vacuums and other household appliances? Venson
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #4 Sep 4, 2009 6:56 pm |
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Procare: WRT bagless and bagged vacuums: When we came up through the vacuum ranks, cloth bags were the norm and paper bags were being introduced and used on some models. While I was a paper proponent from the beginning, I never discouraged cloth if customers insisted. And many did. You remember the reusable paper in the HOOVER uprights 60/61/and 62. Waste of time and money. Not HOOVER's best hour. I classify today's bagless in the same category as yester year's cloths. Same benefits and drawbacks. Cost factors are the same, dumping the same, smells and odors are the same. More attention needed for the pre and post motor filters. Bagless is a fad. Paper bags are here to stay. Convenience of not dumping daily is a commodity that people will always pay to get. Bags provide it. Back to the dyson bickering: Dyson's biggest failure, if you can call it that, is its inability to persuade vacuum users that bagless is better. After 7 plus years of telling customers how bad bags are and how much better bagless are, paper is still the predominant media of dirt collection among the better vacuum products made and sold: MIELE, SEBO, LINDHAUS, ORECK, KIRBY, RICCAR/SIMPLICITY, AERUS to name the top selling indy/door-to-door brands. Carmine D.
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vacmanuk
Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #5 Sep 4, 2009 11:23 pm |
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Its all about lifestyles and making things easier for the folk! I remember my gran with her washing machine that had a basin at the bottom. Now everything is electric, you no longer need to collect the dirty water because the machine does it for you.
She also owned a very effective and robust Ewbank (UK built) mechanical carpet sweeper before she ever considered a vacuum cleaner again and to replace her old rusty mechanical sweeper she bought a mains corded, Chinese built carpet sweeper which I adored. It was blocky, functional and built to last even though most owners in the UK really thumped them about. To catch the dirt, there was a little cloth bag that covered the main dust channel and all you did was shake it out and give it wash every now and then. Simple. Effective and very easy to keep over time. For her, the premise of a mains corded, no suction but motor power brush roll meant it was easier for her to glide on the floors than getting her main upright vacuum cleaner out. Mains corded electric sweepers were therefore judged purely on the lighter aspect making machinery better and more versatile for the needs of the consumer.
The reason to why there are so many brands now and types is different lifestyles and market forces. It has nothing to do with the thought that why should we have these machines when a carpet sweeper was completely effective? People can't be bothered to remove their rugs to beat outside with a stick anymore; certainly the wet weather in the UK has stopped all washing to be hung out. Times have changed and for the better!
Dyson haven't failed on any inability to sell the idea of bagless; the point isn't just that it stops purchasing of bags, but that the 100% suction (and we all know that after a time it doesn't function but I rather think most owners over use their Dysons to a point of obsession as well as using them for outlandish applications to see if they work, like vacuuming the garden!) is still 100% when the bin is packed full of dust. This is why I like Dyson; I don't care very much for the oodles of different models; I do like the idea of the 100% suction "all the time," rather than realising the dust bag is coming to an end thanks to little suction coming out of the hose or on other bagless rivals that the main filter has to be tapped clean i.e. coming into contact with dust. Hoover in the 1990s tried to copy Dyson and failed but they did introduce clear plastic bags to line the bins of their Vortex uprights which kind of missed the point completely regarding the use and purchase / necessity of extra consumables.
In my opinion though Dyson went a bit too far promoting his technology and priced his first offerings too high. If only his first uprights DC01 (not the pink Japanese horrors) that went "mass production" had a sealed internal toothed belt similar to Sebo, it would have made better sense than reverting to the old ways of rubber drive belts, thus allowing the consumer to do very little to the actual vacuum cleaner when it went wrong aside from de-clogging or cleaning the filters.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #6 Sep 5, 2009 5:56 am |
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Hello vacuum gurus.
Heres my take on this industry. I know i sound like Venson but here goes, The way things are in todays economy the person or consumer is looking for the best bang for the buck,
These people are getting tired of broken promises and iffy claims by manufactures,suppliers,dealers,wholesalers, This whole business has turned into a ponzi scheme, I for one refuse to play that game,Hence business has been GREAT better than ever,
As most of you know we hit real hard on service and repairs and parts availability,this is where the sales only concerns are really lacking,
With most manufactures parts,and service training is put on the back burner or even non existant,To them its not inportant,Well quess what this way of thinking has now bitten them in the behind. I for one are glad that they are now being exposed for what they really are,WANNABES
Example, Should the whole high tech latest high winding vortex motors be replaced because the carbons have worn out? Or a $3.00 bearing has gone away,
The consumers that seek out the industry pros are not afraid of laying out the cash they just to be treated right and taken care of when the time comes.
regards
MOLE
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #7 Sep 5, 2009 6:53 am |
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Hello vacuum gurus.
Heres my take on this industry. I know i sound like Venson but here goes, The way things are in todays economy the person or consumer is looking for the best bang for the buck,
These people are getting tired of broken promises and iffy claims by manufactures,suppliers,dealers,wholesalers, This whole business has turned into a ponzi scheme, I for one refuse to play that game,Hence business has been GREAT better than ever,
As most of you know we hit real hard on service and repairs and parts availability,this is where the sales only concerns are really lacking,
With most manufactures parts,and service training is put on the back burner or even non existant,To them its not inportant,Well quess what this way of thinking has now bitten them in the behind. I for one are glad that they are now being exposed for what they really are,WANNABES
Example, Should the whole high tech latest high winding vortex motors be replaced because the carbons have worn out? Or a $3.00 bearing has gone away,
The consumers that seek out the industry pros are not afraid of laying out the cash they just [want] to be treated right and taken care of when the time comes.
regards
MOLE Thanks MOLE. Glad to hear business is booming.
HARDSELL: Note the highlighted part of MOLE's post. Do you get it yet? Much has been said about consumers avoiding the high price vacuums at the big box retailers BECAUSE of the bad economic conditions. That may be true. But many consumers with the do re me are shopping and buying at the indy's because they are tired of educating big box store staff in the products they are selling. Oftentimes these sales people say things about the products that are blatantly untrue and wrong. It's biting them in the butt too. Consumers are returning to the retailers for refunds and credits. Retailers are returning to the makers. Oops there goes another refurb. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by CarmineD
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #8 Sep 5, 2009 6:54 am |
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Since I have been coming to this site I have seen bickering about Dyson, Hoover and a few other brands. But to me it is why is this industry important and why all the different brands and models. My feeling is that they are necessary to maintain a way of life. Cleanliness, health, and just plain keeping everything nice. We started with dirt floors, went to rock and wood floors. Floors were kept up with brooms for hundreds of years. With the advent of electricity the vacuum cleaner came along with elecrtic motors. Just so you know , I am aware of the types of early sweepers from the late 1800's. So the question I put to you is why is it so important to be a bagless society of Dyson? Why Bagged? Why a particular brand over another? Give me and anyone that comes to this site some answers as to why and how is one better than another? I am watching and listening. Procare 54 years in the business and still going strong. Why Dyson (society?) over bagged... Dyson can guarantee No Loss of Suction (strength) for a period of time (1 month to many years). There is not a bag vac manufacturer or a bag manufacturer (including the mighty 3M) that can give this guarantee. Dyson owners like the convenience and/or looking at how much they have collected in their clear bins vice a concealed bag. Dyson owners enjoy not having to locate and the costs associated with collection bags and/or filters. Dyson Ball owners like having more maneuverability-choices/flexibility when saddled with the chore of vacuuming. Dyson owns broad patents on the Ball, and only Dyson has the legal right to manufacturer this type of steering (best in the world steering) vacuum cleaners. Dyson owns broad patents on the Core + Root filtration and only Dyson has the legal right to manufacturer these type of separators (best in the world filtration w/DDM) vacuum cleaners. Dyson DDM DC22 owners enjoy having what looks to be the strongest suctioning, smallest footprint canister in the world vacuum cleaner. Dyson owners enjoy the connivence of quick bin dumping (although they have not figured out or been taught how to [mostly] eliminate the dust plume, a shame). DIB
This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #10 Sep 5, 2009 7:02 am |
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Dyson owners enjoy not having to locate and the costs associated with collection bags and/or filters.
DIB
BULL. I just repaired a 4 year old DC07 animal used once/twice a week tops and it needed a new post-motor filter. $40 bucks. And the pre-motor filter [$20] was shakey. Could have been replaced. $20.
Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #13 Sep 5, 2009 8:57 am |
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Hello Venson: Thanks for your insights on the vacuum industry. We share many of the same perspectives on vacuums, the industry and most importantly the vacuum consumers. Most vacuum buyers/users, like my engineer friend and her dyson, could care less about the patents and 500 engineers. They want to turn it on, use it, put away and move on with the busy-ness of their lives and families. Only when they can't, like her, do they care about their vacuums. After I demoed the dyson's finer points of care and use, she was very quiet. I waited for a response. Carmine, she said, in 4 years you can expect another call to do another service on my dyson. I just smiled. At my age, it's always nice to have something to look forward to. Before you get the wrong idea, she makes wonderful lasagna. A lost art in today's world. Carmine D.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #14 Sep 5, 2009 9:10 am |
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Hi Carmine,im really surprised that the belts/clutch were still O.K. Think they will still be your friends when the clutch/belts have to be replaced . If i were you i would just tell them i had to make many changes to your dc07 while repairing it,and turned it into an ORECK. They will thank you and treat you at micky D's on top of the itialian food.MMMMMMMMMM FOOD................ regards MOLE
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #15 Sep 5, 2009 9:18 am |
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Hi Carmine,im really surprised that the belts/clutch were still O.K. Think they will still be your friends when the clutch/belts have to be replaced . If i were you i would just tell them i had to make many changes to your dc07 while repairing it,and turned it into an ORECK. They will thank you and treat you at micky D's on top of the itialian food.MMMMMMMMMM FOOD................ regards MOLE Hello MOLE:
I attribute DC07 clutch and belt worthiness after 4 years to her lack of the vacuum's usage. But I suspect they will go in time. I passed along a dirt devil cordless stick to the oldest boy: 7. He loves it! Maybe in time an ORECK. As you say, a hokie on a stick. BTW, old Mac Donald's, as my grand daughter calls the Golden Arches, is one of my favorites. Can't overindulge. Bad on the wasteline. Carmine D.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #16 Sep 5, 2009 9:32 am |
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Got to stay in shape for the ladies At least you wont get tired chasing them around at the spa, B.T.W tried the angus burger at mickys last night,not bad for 4 bucks but should throw in fries and coke just to sweeten the deal.I still think wendys beats them for value. Did you run summer hours when you had your shop?. I am really thinking hard about bringing some one in to take over the helm. After 37 years of this stuff it not work anymore but something to do. Know anyone that can be the next vacuum guru............... regards MOLE
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #17 Sep 5, 2009 11:40 am |
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Hi Carmine,im really surprised that the belts/clutch were still O.K. Think they will still be your friends when the clutch/belts have to be replaced . If i were you i would just tell them i had to make many changes to your dc07 while repairing it,and turned it into an ORECK. They will thank you and treat you at micky D's on top of the itialian food.MMMMMMMMMM FOOD................ regards MOLE Maybe he should give her an Oreck. Then he can visit several times a year to replace belts, brush rolls and unclog it.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #18 Sep 5, 2009 11:41 am |
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Got to stay in shape for the ladies At least you wont get tired chasing them around at the spa, B.T.W tried the angus burger at mickys last night,not bad for 4 bucks but should throw in fries and coke just to sweeten the deal.I still think wendys beats them for value. Did you run summer hours when you had your shop?. I am really thinking hard about bringing some one in to take over the helm. After 37 years of this stuff it not work anymore but something to do. Know anyone that can be the next vacuum guru............... regards MOLE DIB would certainly be an asset to your business.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #19 Sep 5, 2009 12:03 pm |
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DIB: I can tear apart each of the silly points you made about dysons with incontrovertible proof. I choose only one, probably the biggest dyson selling myth propagated: No cost for bags and lifetime filters. Yeah, right! I'll spare others here reading my redundancy just to prove you wrong again and again. You refuse and ignore the truth about dyson. It's no better than any other big box outsourced brand made vacuum on the market today, bagged/bagless. Just much more expensive [at least for now but prices are dropping]. Sooner or later you'll gat your head out of James' butt and you'll have to come to terms with the truth about your fave brand. Mediocre performance at best at exorbitant prices. Carmine D. No you can’t, and no you did not prove I said forever filters (older vacs). DIB
This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #20 Sep 5, 2009 12:15 pm |
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vacmanuk
Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #21 Sep 5, 2009 1:47 pm |
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Why Dyson (society?) over bagged...<BR><BR>Dyson can guarantee No Loss of Suction (strength) for a period of time (1 month to many years). There is not a bag vac manufacturer or a bag manufacturer (including the mighty 3M) that can give this guarantee.<BR><BR>Dyson owners like the convenience and/or looking at how much they have collected in their clear bins vice a concealed bag.<BR><BR>Dyson owners enjoy not having to locate and the costs associated with collection bags and/or filters.<BR><BR>Dyson Ball owners like having more maneuverability-choices/flexibility when saddled with the chore of vacuuming.<BR><BR>Dyson owns broad patents on the Ball, and only Dyson has the legal right to manufacturer this type of steering (best in the world steering) vacuum cleaners.<BR><BR>Dyson owns broad patents on the Core + Root filtration and only Dyson has the legal right to manufacturer these type of separators (best in the world filtration w/DDM) vacuum cleaners.<BR><BR>Dyson DDM DC22 owners enjoy having what looks to be the strongest suctioning, smallest footprint canister in the world vacuum cleaner.<BR><BR>Dyson owners enjoy the connivence of quick bin dumping (although they have not figured out or been taught how to [mostly] eliminate the dust plume, a shame).<BR><BR><BR>DIB
MM some interesting statements there, DIB. Dyson can guarantee No Loss of Suction for a lifetime, dependent on the maintenance that the owner puts in for caring for their machine. This doesn't mean that after three years if the filters haven't been touched owners can moan about why their vacuum isn't picking up the way it should. People have become lazy which is why the bagless idea works well - no need to get out of your house and find bag replacements. Bags work differently because they all clog with dust but some are different from others because of their sealing textures (cue Miele and Sebo) so can last longer than standard 2 ply paper bags. And filters by Dyson have to be replaced eventually so there are not always 'lifetime guaranteed" again dependent largely on the matter of dust picked up per owner and their homes. This is why Dyson filters are washable but even the most washed filter can begin to lose its strength compared to one that hasn't been tainted. Not all Dyson owners like to see what they have collected. Would you like a see through toilet in your home? I know I wouldn't! How convenient is it really to see what you have picked up from your carpet? As for the patents, let Dyson have as many as they wish. The strongest suction is all very well on hard flooring but I wonder just how much pull a Dyson has in terms of destroying actual carpet textures coupled with an additional brush bar? Dyson owners may well enjoy the convience of quick bin dumping but most report (in reviews especially) that clouds of dust re-enter the homes or their lungs. How healthy is that? In this respect despite the older reliance, paper bags are better for keeping all that dust in.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #22 Sep 5, 2009 3:55 pm |
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Got to stay in shape for the ladies At least you wont get tired chasing them around at the spa, B.T.W tried the angus burger at mickys last night,not bad for 4 bucks but should throw in fries and coke just to sweeten the deal.I still think wendys beats them for value. Did you run summer hours when you had your shop?. I am really thinking hard about bringing some one in to take over the helm. After 37 years of this stuff it not work anymore but something to do. Know anyone that can be the next vacuum guru............... regards MOLE
HI MOLE:
Mickey D's was giving a medium drink and fries free with the Angus when it came out. Hardee's Carl Jr. got upset with the name Angus, said it copied them, and so added a Big Carl's to the menu. It's giving free medium fries and drink with purchase. I liked all 3 Angus burgers. Yes, summer hours back in the day was closing at noon to make the first races at Monmouth/Aqueduct. Then to Yonkers at night. But not every day. Only when there was a good reason. Read: Hot tip! I know 3: Me, myself and I! Carmine D.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #27 Sep 5, 2009 5:27 pm |
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I will only give a short sample of the what's & whys of the issue but I could discuss for hours if so inclined.
Basically the Bagless Vacuum serves 1 main purpose and it's not to save the customer $'s on bags. It's to fit a business model that ......"value=price". The previous business Model that "Service, Quality, Repairability, Brand Loyalty etc=Profit" does not offer QUICK ENOUGH FINANCIAL RETURN.
1 You can now sell a Vacuum in a box-no demo, no qualified sales person, no parts, no service, no repairs, no accountability. SALE boom SHORT TERM PROFIT...NEXT! You can even sell it by being a faceless entity just by posting a picture on a computer.
Lucky1:
Amen, thanks to customers like HS and vacuum makers like dyson who cater to them and big box retailers. Take note: Circuit City: bankrupt. Linens-N-Things: bankrupt. SEARS: Tetering on bankruptcy. Most big box retailers currently: Struggling. Why? GREEDY. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #28 Sep 5, 2009 6:50 pm |
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Lucky1: Amen, thanks to customers like HS and vacuum makers like dyson who cater to them and big box retailers. Take note: Circuit City: bankrupt. Linens-N-Things: bankrupt. SEARS: Tetering on bankruptcy. Most big box retailers currently: Struggling. Why? GREEDY. Carmine D. Using a vac in the indies store is a very poor test.
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retardturtle1
Joined: May 16, 2009
Points: 358
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #30 Sep 6, 2009 9:23 pm |
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Why? Reasons please. Carmine D. HI CARMINE
I too , would love to hear this one.......please enlighten us on this one HS.
This message was modified Sep 6, 2009 by retardturtle1
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #31 Sep 6, 2009 10:23 pm |
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And filters by Dyson have to be replaced eventually so there are not always 'lifetime guaranteed" again dependent largely on the matter of dust picked up per owner and their homes. This is why Dyson filters are washable but even the most washed filter can begin to lose its strength compared to one that hasn't been tainted.
No, don't think so. The HEPA pleated post motor filter with fiberglass surface on the DC07 Animal I recently repaired is not washable. It's replaceable at $40 plus bucks. The pre-motor filter on this model is washable and dyson recommends on this model every 6 months. Carmine D. Carmine, Nice try. True, the older and discontinued DC07 had choke points and choked prematurely if not maintained properly. The new Dyson’s all have washable filters - a point you hid (oops, I meant to say - overlooked). DIB
This message was modified Sep 6, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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procare
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
Points: 192
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #33 Sep 7, 2009 12:43 am |
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I thank everyone that so far has put some input in this thread but you still haven't told me or anyone else why is one better than the other or why the industry is important to everyone. Bagless vacuums have been around since the beginning. The bagged vacuums have been around also. The idea of how vacuums are designed and made to work come from different individuals at different times in history. I will tell you of one instance where one individual trusted a man and his idea was used in the industry and he lost out. The idea was take 2 square dishpans and put them together with a motor in it and had a working prototype of the cleaner in 1956. The company was Douglas Manufacturing and wasn't very long after that a new line of vacuums with this design came out. The man was my father and the man was what my Father called a friend from the factory. Some ideas for stonger motors with the same wattage usage was not shown to them and we had some powerful cleaners. I have even seen two mtor vacuum cleaners running around before anyone else had them by 15-20 years. Dyson took the idea of a Roots blower system and made use in a vacuum. Old ideas and improved it for use in smaller systems. Does that make it better than anything else out there? No. It is giving people something they think they want. Many will not go back to a bagless afterwards,some might. Someone will design what they think is better and sell it to a new group of people. That is the nature of this very important business. Build a better mousetrap and all will buy it. Sorry to burst your bubble all will not buy. Cyclonic action of a vacuum cleaner is not new. It is used in every vacuum cleaner to this day. It is the nature of the beast. It is who designs their attachments and motors and bag set up or bagless setup up to utilize it best. My 97 year old Father , who has been in the business 64 years and an engineer says that all vacuums lose suction when cleaning . If there is a sytem out there that doesn't ,it doesn't have the performance to clean todays carpet.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #34 Sep 7, 2009 6:48 am |
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DIB: I didn't overlook. I know the current dyson pre-post motor filters are washable and knew and stated that the initial ones were not. That's all. Correcting a oversight made here. That's my hobby. BTW, the wash cycle on the current dyson filters is every 3 months from 6 months on the discontinued models. If the lovely lady with her DC07 Animal had washed the pre-motor filter in the past it would have needed replacement too, like the post motor filter. Total price for new filters after 4 years about $60. She got off for $40. By not washing one of the filters. So much for the dyson claim of life time filters. But you overlooked that point. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #35 Sep 7, 2009 10:09 am |
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HI CARMINE I too , would love to hear this one.......please enlighten us on this one HS.
Real world tests are best in your environment. I would not test drive an auto on the dealers lot. I want to drive on the streets and roads as in daily life.
I would not buy stereo/home theater speakers based on their sound in the store. 99.9% of the time they will sound different in the home. A television picture will look different in the home than in the store. I am sure that you and Carmine will figure out why I say this. If not I will explain.
This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by HARDSELL
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #37 Sep 7, 2009 1:46 pm |
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Thank you HS. You just explained why the ORECK in home 30 day free in home trial with no obligation for return is the standard that the industry should follow. Carmine D.
Maybe Oreck should drop the program. I found what a POS it was and returned the XL21. As you say. Another refurb hit the market.
The BB stores offer this 30 day trial. It is the indies who do not without hassle.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #39 Sep 7, 2009 3:25 pm |
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When dealing with Buyers Remorse it's NOT the Indies alone that have a problem with it, many of the Box Stores have tricks and intimidating tactics to dissuade the consumer from returning the product. Besides the consumer can actually TRY the product at the store but can't at the BBS. As far as returns for problems the Indie has the power to resolve it because they can actually fix it. Your never going to hear "Kiesha on aisle 3 to the repair facility" on the PA system at the BBS!
I tried various brands about 3 years ago before settling on the DC07. I had no buyers remorse on any of the other brands. They simply did not satisfy my cleaning needs. I have never been tricked or intimidated in a BB store. It has been tried in indies though. Guess a sale means more to them than to the non comissioned employee in a BB store.
Do you ever get out of the back room. All BB stores that I have shopped have access to demoing vacuums. Even Carmine has commented on using them in the stores. The problems that I had was not repairable by and indie------------unless he could redesign the vac in his back room. If there was a problem or defect on a new machine I would not want it repaired in a 30 day window (90 days at Wal Mart). It should be replaced.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #41 Sep 7, 2009 4:49 pm |
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Do you ever get out of the back room. All BB stores that I have shopped have access to demoing vacuums. Even Carmine has commented on using them in the stores.
HS:
Actually HS you're half right. I don't go to big box stores to use the new vacuums, tho that is my excuse. I go to hear what the sales clerks say and do to sell them. It doesn't take a sales person to demo a vacuum for me. I know, as do most industry experts, how to take a new model through its paces. I want to hear what the sales staffs say about them. Case in point: When the DC07 first launched at TARGET stores in 2002 no one in the store could attach the u-bend airway to it. I watched as a sales supervisor and store manager read through the dyson manual, and all other information on the carton to figure it out. They spent over 20 minutes. A person trying to use the vacuum couldn't because there was no suction in the tool mode. With my dear Wife present I attached the piece in 10 seconds. Voila. They thought I was a genius. And on that account they are right. Carmine D.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #42 Sep 7, 2009 6:22 pm |
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Maybe Oreck should drop the program. I found what a POS it was and returned the XL21. As you say. Another refurb hit the market. The BB stores offer this 30 day trial. It is the indies who do not without hassle.
HS:
I would argue that your fave brand with the most refurbs on the web of all brands should offer the 30 day free in home trial with a no obligation if returned. It has to be better than the current sales strategies which are producing more refurbs than dyson can handle. Maybe even gift DC16 with the trial and to keep if full size dyson is returned. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #43 Sep 7, 2009 6:58 pm |
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HS: Actually HS you're half right. I don't go to big box stores to use the new vacuums, tho that is my excuse. I go to hear what the sales clerks say and do to sell them. It doesn't take a sales person to demo a vacuum for me. I know, as do most industry experts, how to take a new model through its paces. I want to hear what the sales staffs say about them. Case in point: When the DC07 first launched at TARGET stores in 2002 no one in the store could attach the u-bend airway to it. I watched as a sales supervisor and store manager read through the dyson manual, and all other information on the carton to figure it out. They spent over 20 minutes. A person trying to use the vacuum couldn't because there was no suction in the tool mode. With my dear Wife present I attached the piece in 10 seconds. Voila. They thought I was a genius. And on that account they are right. Carmine D.
I must also be a genius. Never looked at the manual in the store. I knew what the removable u-bend was for. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife showed you how to make the repair.
Oreck could take a lesson from Dyson. One of the biggest complaints is clogging. Of course that would take away repairs from the Oreck stores.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #44 Sep 8, 2009 6:49 am |
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I must also be a genius. Never looked at the manual in the store. I knew what the removable u-bend was for. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife showed you how to make the repair. Oreck could take a lesson from Dyson. One of the biggest complaints is clogging. Of course that would take away repairs from the Oreck stores.
HS:
Soon after the launch and encountering the problems with the u-bend air-ways dyson redesigned and refitted the piece. I hear that most store personnel left the piece in the box not knowing what/where it was to go. Apparently you and I are not the usual dyson customers. Perhaps the reason we don't use dysons anymore. Point of fact, the ORECK store repairs all makes but declines dysons for the most part telling customers to mail back to dyson. That to me is the epitomy of the ORECK model besting dyson's business model and rubbing dyson's face oin it. When ORECK dictates dyson repairs. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #45 Sep 8, 2009 7:49 am |
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HS: Soon after the launch and encountering the problems with the u-bend air-ways dyson redesigned and refitted the piece. I hear that most store personnel left the piece in the box not knowing what/where it was to go. Apparently you and I are not the usual dyson customers. Perhaps the reason we don't use dysons anymore. Point of fact, the ORECK store repairs all makes but declines dysons for the most part telling customers to mail back to dyson. That to me is the epitomy of the ORECK model besting dyson's business model and rubbing dyson's face oin it. When ORECK dictates dyson repairs. Carmine D. Millions of Dysons sold and you know the history of them all. Amazing for one who was not intelligent enough to tell Hoover to buy into Dyson. Does it matter what brand is repaired? Profit is profit. Most likely the Oreck stores are so busy with Oreck repairs that they do not have time to work on other brands.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #47 Sep 8, 2009 9:21 am |
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HS: ORECK still in your craw. Again, I have to repeat myself for your benefit. 80 percent of the vacuum parts and repairs of the ORECK stores are non-ORECK. Carmine D. Since they do not repair Dyson we know that all the others need lots of repairs.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #48 Sep 8, 2009 9:34 am |
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Lets see now just overhaulded a kirby ultimate G. New brush roll New fan kit belt carbons with holders front and rear bearings new switch bulb bag tube front and rear wheels lower handle fork with cord clip Complete motor and transmission service, comes with 3 year parts and labor warranty. TOTAL COST,285.00 will have for another 20 years.Or new dyson every 5 years for 500 plus Can you do the math H.S. Plus they have something that really does the job.Not some high tech toy that no one wants to work on. regards MOLE
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #49 Sep 8, 2009 12:24 pm |
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Since they do not repair Dyson we know that all the others need lots of repairs.
HS:
All vacuums need repairs, parts and a look over from time to time. Even the 2 year old dyson that you sold with still one year left on the BEST BUY extended service plan and product replacement. The one year you paid $19 for since dyson gave you the first 2 years with the purchase but you decided to pay BB extra for them again. Smart! I got your sign. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #50 Sep 8, 2009 12:30 pm |
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Lets see now just overhaulded a kirby ultimate G. New brush roll New fan kit belt carbons with holders front and rear bearings new switch bulb bag tube front and rear wheels lower handle fork with cord clip Complete motor and transmission service, comes with 3 year parts and labor warranty. TOTAL COST,285.00 will have for another 20 years.Or new dyson every 5 years for 500 plus Can you do the math H.S. Plus they have something that really does the job.Not some high tech toy that no one wants to work on. regards MOLE
How many years was the Kirby in use to need so much repair? Must have seen some hard use.
I have not said that Kirby isn't a good machine. I do think they are a pain in the neck to use though.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #51 Sep 8, 2009 12:32 pm |
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How many years was the Kirby in use to need so much repair? Must have seen some hard use. I have not said that Kirby isn't a good machine. I do think they are a pain in the neck to use though.
No more so than your fave brand.
Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #52 Sep 8, 2009 12:56 pm |
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No more so than your fave brand. Carmine D.
You have told us that you could not use the Dyson on your builder grade carpets. You do not own a Kirby.
Tell us more when you have experience and not an opinion.
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Lucky1
Joined: Jan 2, 2008
Points: 271
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #55 Sep 8, 2009 2:02 pm |
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I tried various brands about 3 years ago before settling on the DC07. I had no buyers remorse on any of the other brands. They simply did not satisfy my cleaning needs. I have never been tricked or intimidated in a BB store. It has been tried in indies though. Guess a sale means more to them than to the non comissioned employee in a BB store.</p><p>Do you ever get out of the back room. All BB stores that I have shopped have access to demoing vacuums. Even Carmine has commented on using them in the stores.</p><p>The problems that I had was not repairable by and indie------------unless he could redesign the vac in his back room. If there was a problem or defect on a new machine I would not want it repaired in a 30 day window (90 days at Wal Mart). It should be replaced.
Other than just being a contrarian, I miss your point... If you tried the vacuums with a proper demo at the BBS before you bought them... why weren't you aware that they wouldn't meet your cleaning needs? I have worked at a Box store and KNOW they don't want to take returns. A manager who takes too many gets a firm repremand. Some BBS have now reverted to telling the customer to return the vacuum to the manufacturer not the store. I still couldn't name a BBS in my area that demos a vacuum and only a few even have them out of the box. We get the picture, ad nauseam, you like your vacuum....maybe half the Dyson buyers do as well. I will agree in addition that in many cases it is the right vacuum for many customers. I base "my" opinion the my dealings with the company and the amount of complaints I personally hear from people not liking the product. Your distrust of the indie is common. People fear the vacuum salesman just less than the Auto dealer. But all I can tell you is overwhelmingly, those I have met, talked to, dealt with, and had internet relations with, are good hardworking people with a genuine love of their work and want to share both their knowledge and enthusiasm with others.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #56 Sep 8, 2009 2:22 pm |
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Other than just being a contrarian, I miss your point... If you tried the vacuums with a proper demo at the BBS before you bought them... why weren't you aware that they wouldn't meet your cleaning needs?
I have worked at a Box store and KNOW they don't want to take returns. A manager who takes too many gets a firm repremand. Some BBS have now reverted to telling the customer to return the vacuum to the manufacturer not the store. I still couldn't name a BBS in my area that demos a vacuum and only a few even have them out of the box.
We get the picture, ad nauseam, you like your vacuum....maybe half the Dyson buyers do as well. I will agree in addition that in many cases it is the right vacuum for many customers. I base "my" opinion the my dealings with the company and the amount of complaints I personally hear from people not liking the product. Your distrust of the indie is common. People fear the vacuum salesman just less than the Auto dealer. But all I can tell you is overwhelmingly, those I have met, talked to, dealt with, and had internet relations with, are good hardworking people with a genuine love of their work and want to share both their knowledge and enthusiasm with others. If insisting that my purchases meet my needs as opposed to what another thinks then I am a contrarian. Show me a store with rooms set up with furniture and my carpet and hard surface floors then I will agree that they give a proper demo. Simply pushing a vacuum back and forth in the store in no way represents its performance. I do not need all the details of why A is better than B because that opinion from a sales person usually represents the one with most profit (not always).
I can understand why BB stores do not want returns. However, corporate management dictates the policy and should not reprimand a manager for returns. Actually I have never had to see a manager to make a return. Wal Mart is the mos successful retailer currently and they allow 90 day returns on most all items. Do you sell Hoover? Would you recommend the new Platinum bagged with canister if a customer asked about one?
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retardturtle1
Joined: May 16, 2009
Points: 358
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #58 Sep 8, 2009 5:10 pm |
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Real world tests are best in your environment. I would not test drive an auto on the dealers lot. I want to drive on the streets and roads as in daily life. I would not buy stereo/home theater speakers based on their sound in the store. 99.9% of the time they will sound different in the home. A television picture will look different in the home than in the store. I am sure that you and Carmine will figure out why I say this. If not I will explain. Point well made HS.....very true and dead on.. But a demo...walk thru /test weight ...get all your questions answered ...is the first step...a very important one. So when taken home it will perform as expected ,,if the dealer/sales did their job and listened to the customers needs/wants/price...and adressed them. All things have a starting point....and a good dealer is it.....
turtle1
This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by retardturtle1
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #59 Sep 8, 2009 5:38 pm |
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I sell Hoover. I don't stock many, I try to find the best vacuums for each need and price point. I do have a little problem with the time it takes to receive Hoover orders and the amount of difficulty to repair but my rep is very good and responsive which I like. I would like to sell more of them. As far as the platinum, I don't stock them (maybe I will but haven't decided). I am just VERY impressed with the Simplicity Freedom line. It has proven it's worth to me and until I or my customers complain I will probably stick with that line instead. If I were a bigger store, I might offer more choices. I feel with the economy the way it is it only makes sense to stick with the proven winners.
As far as recommendation, I would have to say the verdict is still out on them but if the customer wanted one I would order it and maintain it for them. Not out of greed to make a sale but to be at their service. Thanks Lucky1, I have been considering the Platinum bagged upright. I called the largest independent in the area who is an authorized service center for Hoover. I bought my Royal there. I talked to the owners daughter who sells. I asked her if they sold the Platinum. Her immediate was 'NO'. She said you do not want one as they are made in China. She proceeded to tell me about getting a new Platinum floor cleaner in for service. Her factory trained Hoover tech and a Bissell tech could not repair it. She said that they had some refurb Panasonics for a very reduced price. These supposedly have never been used. Panasonic shipped units with out the sole plate on them and had to take them back and add the plate. Naturally these have to be sold as refurbs although never sold to a consumer. How did they keep the brush roll in the vac with no plate? I explained that I was not interested in the Panny and wanted the Hoover for ease of use like Oreck. She quickly said that the Oreck does not clean good due to the 'toy like' fan for starters. She suggested Sanitaire and then Miele uprights. I later called Hoover. They have a Platinum line. I asked the rep about using the Platinum on laminate and tile since it has no brush cut off. After a moment she said to test it in a small area to see if damage resulted. What kind of answer is this from a customer rep dedicated to a single product line. It is good that the carpet and rug institute makes recommendations because the manufacturer does not seem to know. We were suddenly disconnected. I called back and spoke to a different rep. She put me on hold for a good 5 minutes to try and get an answer. She fianlly returned to say that it should not do damage, however if it did to discontinue use and switch to the canister. I inquired about the belt replacement. It is not listed as a consumer part. I guess because it is advertised to never need replacement. I was told to take it in for service as it was not replacable by the consumer. The manual shows how to replace the brush roll and gives the part #. The belt has to be removed in the process. So much for consumer not being able to replace. I was never told emphatically that warranty would cover replacement. Only that it was located in a place to prevent breakage and wear. Would that location be in the package and not the vac?
And to think that Carmine has been critical of Dyson customer service knowledge. Now I have an authorized Hoover dealer discouraging a Hoover sale and encouraging me to step up to their top of the line products or a refurb that I am certain the make good profit on. A service rep dedicated to a so called special series that can't answer the simplest of questions. A favored rag tag mag giving top honors. What is the consumer to do? Simple, buy from the bb store and use for 30 to 90 days. If it performs keep it. If not return it and let the manufacturer suffer since they and their dealers are almost useless.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #61 Sep 8, 2009 5:53 pm |
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And to think that Carmine has been critical of Dyson customer service knowledge. Per HS Well, if being told to return to the store for a refund because dyson can't work on my carpets, is critical, then you're right. I was merely telling the facts and circumstances of the telephone call. You imputed I was being critical. Carmine D. PS: HS, Did you ever think that perhaps that is the reason, at least in part, for the huge number of refurbs. Dyson HELP LINE telling dyson owners to return their purchases to the retailers for refunds because the dysons won't work on their carpets? Or do you think the buyers determine that on their own once they have the vacuums in their home and use? Hint: The answer is all the above.
This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #62 Sep 8, 2009 5:53 pm |
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Like I said HS, if you want two vacuums for the price of one and have medium to high carpets, and want a large bagged lightweight vacuum and want to buy from a big box retailer: HOOVER bagged platinum is the brand/model. Wal*Mart has on sale for $299. But you better buy quick, the price is sure to rise once word of the CR ratings spead. Assuming all the same facts above but you have low to medium pile carpet, ORECK is the brand. If you want to shop at an Indy and all the above facts the same, then SIMPLICITY/RICCAR is the brand. I rate these a tad better than ORECK and head and shoulders over the HOOVER bagged Platinum. It's really up to you. Since you don't like ORECK, and HOOVER is stuck in your craw, I'd recommend an Indy. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by CarmineD
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #72 Sep 8, 2009 7:14 pm |
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And to think that Carmine has been critical of Dyson customer service knowledge. Per HS Well, if being told to return to the store for a refund because dyson can't work on my carpets, is critical, then you're right. I was merely telling the facts and circumstances of the telephone call. You imputed I was being critical. Carmine D. PS: HS, Did you ever think that perhaps that is the reason, at least in part, for the huge number of refurbs. Dyson HELP LINE telling dyson owners to return their purchases to the retailers for refunds because the dysons won't work on their carpets? Or do you think the buyers determine that on their own once they have the vacuums in their home and use? Hint: The answer is all the above. I was waiting for that one Carmine.
The last thing Hoover told me was to return the vacuum to the store if it did not perform to my satisfaction.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #73 Sep 8, 2009 9:19 pm |
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Like I said HS, if you want two vacuums for the price of one and have medium to high carpets, and want a large bagged lightweight vacuum and want to buy from a big box retailer: HOOVER bagged platinum is the brand/model. Wal*Mart has on sale for $299. But you better buy quick, the price is sure to rise once word of the CR ratings spead. Assuming all the same facts above but you have low to medium pile carpet, ORECK is the brand. If you want to shop at an Indy and all the above facts the same, then SIMPLICITY/RICCAR is the brand. I rate these a tad better than ORECK and head and shoulders over the HOOVER bagged Platinum. It's really up to you. Since you don't like ORECK, and HOOVER is stuck in your craw, I'd recommend an Indy. Carmine D. The Hoover rep said that the vacuum may be difficult to push on thicker carpets but the self adjusting feature would eventually adjust to make vacuuming easier. I asked how it adjusted since it has 4 wheels. She said something to the effect that it just senses and adjusts. Adjusts what, the brush roll? I said It sounds like a thermos bottle knowing when to keep contents hot or cold. My grandfather used to keep iced tean and chili in his thermos.
I have medium pile carpet, laminate and tile. The Oreck groomed the carpet beautifully but failed to remove deep dirt. I actually liked most everything else about the Oreck. Except the $800 price tag. I used the Platinum in Sears. It glided over the carpeted area in the vac area (like on a wood floor) but seemed to drag some on a short knap rug by the display. The regular carpeted area was very short almost like indoor/outdoor glue down.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #74 Sep 9, 2009 6:32 am |
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I was waiting for that one Carmine. The last thing Hoover told me was to return the vacuum to the store if it did not perform to my satisfaction. And HS the reason for returns and refurbs. Let me say this for you again [for the 30th time]. HOOVER blew it when they kow towed to the big box retailers in the late 60's at the expense of the Indie's. Dyson made the same identical exact mistake.
Carmine D.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #75 Sep 9, 2009 6:49 am |
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The Hoover rep said that the vacuum may be difficult to push on thicker carpets but the self adjusting feature would eventually adjust to make vacuuming easier. I asked how it adjusted since it has 4 wheels. She said something to the effect that it just senses and adjusts. Adjusts what, the brush roll? I said It sounds like a thermos bottle knowing when to keep contents hot or cold. My grandfather used to keep iced tean and chili in his thermos. I have medium pile carpet, laminate and tile. The Oreck groomed the carpet beautifully but failed to remove deep dirt. I actually liked most everything else about the Oreck. Except the $800 price tag. I used the Platinum in Sears. It glided over the carpeted area in the vac area (like on a wood floor) but seemed to drag some on a short knap rug by the display. The regular carpeted area was very short almost like indoor/outdoor glue down.
Your mistake HS is going with the $ 732 ORECK. Here I go for the umteenth time telling you this yet again. You don't need a $700 plus ORECK, FEW VACUUM BUYERS DO! It doesn't serve your needs any more at that price. You're overpaying, a tendency you ofetn have, ref; your BEST BUY extended warranty.
I paid $150 plus tax for an ORECK XL Classic in April 2007. Free shipping. And bought 3 more since and gifted. All 4 for less than $732 and buku money left over. Now I have an ORECK offer good thru Sept 21 for a Silver Series for $199 with free shipping and year's worth of bags. ORECK offers new buyers this deal several times a year. Your mistake [buyer's error] not ORECK's that you fell for it. That's why they give you the freebies. If a buyer makes a mistake and doesn't want the $700 ORECK they return free and keep the goodies. What the H-E-double hockey sticks are you complaining about? ORECK rewards customers for being idiots and not knowing what they want and for how much they want to spend. Now, deep down dirt. Again, ORECK's are made to use daily. If you do so, you don't have deep down dirt. Takes surface dirt 5 days to embed deep down. If you're using your ORECK more often than every 5 days you're fine. Again, for the zillionth time I'm saying this for your benefit. Diff is I don't give freebies save advice. Carmine D.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #76 Sep 9, 2009 6:53 am |
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Carmine, You had 3 blank responses (edited out)when I posted. They disappeared and my post logged in numerous times. I think a bug other than you has entered my computer.
Yes, you! If there are too many connections on the thread, the post time is slow. If you keep hitting the post button, the system queues up all the posts and adds them all on the page.
Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #77 Sep 9, 2009 7:25 am |
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Your mistake HS is going with the $ 732 ORECK. Here I go for the umteenth time telling you this yet again. You don't need a $700 plus ORECK, FEW VACUUM BUYERS DO! It doesn't serve your needs any more at that price. You're overpaying, a tendency you ofetn have, ref; your BEST BUY extended warranty. I paid $150 plus tax for an ORECK XL Classic in April 2007. Free shipping. And bought 3 more since and gifted. All 4 for less than $732 and buku money left over. Now I have an ORECK offer good thru Sept 21 for a Silver Series for $199 with free shipping and year's worth of bags. ORECK offers new buyers this deal several times a year. Your mistake [buyer's error] not ORECK's that you fell for it. That's why they give you the freebies. If a buyer makes a mistake and doesn't want the $700 ORECK they return free and keep the goodies. What the H-E-double hockey sticks are you complaining about? ORECK rewards customers for being idiots and not knowing what they want and for how much they want to spend. Now, deep down dirt. Again, ORECK's are made to use daily. If you do so, you don't have deep down dirt. Takes surface dirt 5 days to embed deep down. If you're using your ORECK more often than every 5 days you're fine. Again, for the zillionth time I'm saying this for your benefit. Diff is I don't give freebies save advice. Carmine D. Carmine, regardless of you ego you do not know what most others need. In your opinion who re teh few that need a $700 vac.
I have benefited from extended warranties and $19 is a cheap insurance policy. YMMV, however again you can't speak for all. Your $150 Oreck is not recommended for non carpeted floors. If you keep the vacuum the gifts are not free. If you take the special pricing you do not get the canister. Of course you can get it for $150 pushing the price back to $300 or more. Seems to me that the idiots are the ones who owned products from a failed company then in desperation grabbed an overrated product without question. I vacuum every 4 3/4 days yet the Oreck left a lot of dirt in the carpet. IF your 5 day theory is correct then I have been right all along. The world does not revolve around you and products have to fit the user needs. Not yours. Use your advice sparingly. Are you forgetting that past anti Dyson advice already made you look like a monkey?
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #78 Sep 9, 2009 8:01 am |
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Your name should be HARDHEAD not HARDSELL. You just don't get it. Again HS, I've posted before who would be the likely buyers of the $735 ORECK. Go back and read it if you are inclined. I'm growing weary of educating you. You don't read and comprehend. WRT to $19 extended service warranty, you sold your dyson before the warranty kicked in. You said so. You paid $19 for the 2 years dyson warrantied the product. Not very smart. In fact, I have a sign waiting for you. ORECK's not recommended on barefloors? Says who. Post it here. I'm curious to know your sources beside dyson advertisments. I have predominantly tile floors and ORECK is my first vacuum of choice for cleaning them daily. I have to. No choice. Dog that sheds year round and a dear Wife allergic to the hair and dander. $150 bucks over 2 1/2 years old and still head and shoulders over the DC07 pink for $250 after discounts cash rebates and incentives. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #79 Sep 9, 2009 8:46 am |
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Your name should be HARDHEAD not HARDSELL. You just don't get it. Again HS, I've posted before who would be the likely buyers of the $735 ORECK. Go back and read it if you are inclined. I'm growing weary of educating you. You don't read and comprehend. WRT to $19 extended service warranty, you sold your dyson before the warranty kicked in. You said so. You paid $19 for the 2 years dyson warrantied the product. Not very smart. In fact, I have a sign waiting for you. ORECK's not recommended on barefloors? Says who. Post it here. I'm curious to know your sources beside dyson advertisments. I have predominantly tile floors and ORECK is my first vacuum of choice for cleaning them daily. I have to. No choice. Dog that sheds year round and a dear Wife allergic to the hair and dander. $150 bucks over 2 1/2 years old and still head and shoulders over the DC07 pink for $250 after discounts cash rebates and incentives. Carmine D. Why not refresh my memory on who needs a $735 vac.
Who wants to use ther auto, life and health insurance? Should we simply decline to carry insurance because we may not need it? Two Oreck stores and the Oreck district manager told me they do not recommend using a single speed Oreck on wood and tile floors. I inquired about an Oreck on Craigs List. The seller said he had installed wood floors and since Oreck does not recommend single speed on them he was selling. How many times do I have to repeat. I used a DC07 for 3 years with absolutely no problems. Cleaned where the Oreck failed. One more time. The world does not revolve around you and your usage. Venson even admits that the Miele is not for all (probably not for most). Why doesn't he use Oreck?
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #80 Sep 9, 2009 8:58 am |
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Do you know the name of the ORECK district manager. Message it to me here/offline. I want to talk to him. Most ORECK store managers say the ORECK two speeds are not needed except in rare cases. Are you sure you understood correctly?? I don't think so!BTW, the HOOVER bagged Platinum is 2 speed. I didn't care for the low speed. It's a selling feature but I suspect not used by most buyers/users. These vacuums don't have strong enough motors to warrant a low speed. Not even the new HOOVER bagged. If they did, they'd have attachments on board. SInce you want to change your story again about your dyson: Then you paid $19 for one year, rather than 3 years. Still not very smart. Sign is still available IN BOLD PRINT. I don't believe that you bought a new dyson from BB. Never did. I said and still say you got a free dyson refurb from a poster here and resold it to get the proceeds to buy your Royal bagged model, and an Indy store brand. I won't refresh your memory on ORECK. Sorry HS you're out of luck. Too much ego and not enough sense. Not my job to educate and worse reeducate the obtuse. Do a search and read it if you are inclined. Or better still ask the ORECK district manager. Get it right this time, please. The point HARDSELL that you miss all the time when you talk about an $800 ORECK is that YOU don't have to buy it. Nor anyone else. Or do you have to buy the $299 ORECK with the freebies. You and others have the option to buy the upright solo for $150-199 depending on the sale/discount. Or buy used for $25-$50. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 9, 2009 by CarmineD
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #81 Sep 9, 2009 9:24 am |
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Hey, I really dont see any problem with the oreck on bare floors,any kind,wood,tile,pergo etc.Doesnt oreck have the corner brushes and plastic strip behind the brush roll just for this purpose? I would be inclined to say the oreck stores/salespeople say this just to upsell to the upright canister combo. The oreck by itself is just basically rug cleaning, Take it out unwrap the long cord and vacuum your carpets maybe hit the flooring inadvertanly and get the job done. The 2 speeds are just fluff, its not a 2speed motor its the switch that has a diode or resistor in it to slow it down. Why must this get so complicated? most people dont like to vacuum its as much fun as mowing your lawn. regards MOLE So is it safe to say that dyson done fleecing the consumers in the USA.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #86 Sep 9, 2009 1:48 pm |
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Thanks turtle. You might make it yet kiddo
HS:
"Turtle1" is on the path and making the journey. It's you HS that's lagging behind and lacking the industry wherewithal. Buying from big box retailers, paying more than you should for products with extending warranties that are worthless and retailer money makers. Maybe 'Turtle1" should adopt you and take care of you and how you spend your money. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #87 Sep 9, 2009 2:17 pm |
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HS: "Turtle1" is on the path and making the journey. It's you HS that's lagging behind and lacking the industry wherewithal. Buying from big box retailers, paying more than you should for products with extending warranties that are worthless and retailer money makers. Maybe 'Turtle1" should adopt you and take care of you and how you spend your money. Carmine D. Hi Venson: MIELE and other quality brand names are giving people options/choices. As you said, primarily with color. It's cheap for them to offer many variations on the theme from low price to high. Economies of scale. Perhaps too MIELE, and canister maker for years and years, is making up for lost time. A similar but not the same comparison is my recent purchases of two new HOOVER TEMPO uprights. One the traditional Catalina blue from BEST BUY [in store purchase] for $70 and another a new white model from Kohl's at $54 [on-line]. Both perform the same. Quite well in fact for the prices. But my color preference in this particular model is for white. Carmine D. My Dyson came from a big box. All the others that I kept were purchased from indies. I proved yesterday that you are a hypocrite. Read the red that was posted, A quick search will show you as making hundreds of posts promoting big box stores. You are a disgrace to the profession.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #89 Sep 9, 2009 7:50 pm |
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Thanks HS; I thought I paid $75 for the BB Tempo and I rounded to say $55 for the TEMPO form Kohl's making my average cost $65. But you corrected me: I paid $70 for the BB HOOVER. Brings my cost on both to $62. I promote the Indies, I tolerate the big box stores. Always like to know what the bbs are selling and saying. So I can gauge the idiocy quotient of the big box store manufacturers who let them sell their wares. I say that with a huge smile on my face because I'm cracking up on the inside.
Carmine D. Get back on yur meds quickly. Nothing mentioned about pricing. The only thing cracked is your brain. Thanks to Dyson.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #92 Sep 10, 2009 6:53 am |
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HS: Again for benefit and the umpteenth time: One of the major reasons for the DC07 pink purchase was directly due to the $45 dyson/TARGET donated on each sale to the Susan G. Komen cancer foundation. BTW, the woman who conceived the foundation years ago, was recently awarded the Presidential Medal of Honor at a White House ceremony. So contrary to your post, and despite the overwhelming failings of dyson's pink DC07 on my carpets and the gawdawful ratcheting noises that drove my Wife and dog out of the house, it was a bright purchase, not just in color. When your fave HELPLINE told me to return the product to the retailer, I said I couldn't do that because it would rescind the $45 donation to the Susan G. Komen Foundation. Not much she could say to that comment. On a bright note, my granddaughter likes the color and calls the dyson, sitting in a spare guest bed room in my daughter's home unused, papa's vacuum. Carmine D.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #93 Sep 10, 2009 8:26 am |
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HS: Again for benefit and the umpteenth time: One of the major reasons for the DC07 pink purchase was directly due to the $45 dyson/TARGET donated on each sale to the Susan G. Komen cancer foundation. BTW, the woman who conceived the foundation years ago, was recently awarded the Presidential Medal of Honor at a White House ceremony. So contrary to your post, and despite the overwhelming failings of dyson's pink DC07 on my carpets and the gawdawful ratcheting noises that drove my Wife and dog out of the house, it was a bright purchase, not just in color. When your fave HELPLINE told me to return the product to the retailer, I said I couldn't do that because it would rescind the $45 donation to the Susan G. Komen Foundation. Not much she could say to that comment. On a bright note, my granddaughter likes the color and calls the dyson, sitting in a spare guest bed room in my daughter's home unused, papa's vacuum. Carmine D. Oh come on Carmine, you’ve got this pink DC07 “nailed to your families floor” only so you can refer to it and fail it out (in conversations). - Not unlike some con men independents that have beat up Dyson’s “nailed to their sales floors.” FYI, older DC07’s are a favorite “nailed to the floor” “whippin boy” amongst the seedy independents. DIB
This message was modified Sep 10, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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Severus
If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #97 Sep 11, 2009 10:23 am |
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Oh come on Carmine, you’ve got this pink DC07 “nailed to your families floor” only so you can refer to it and fail it out (in conversations). - Not unlike some con men independents that have beat up Dyson’s “nailed to their sales floors.” FYI, older DC07’s are a favorite “nailed to the floor” “whippin boy” amongst the seedy independents.
DIB
DIB,
So if I understand correctly, you are saying that some independent stores have Dyson DC07 demo machines in their showrooms ,so that the customer has the opportunity to make a head to head comparison of their products to the Dyson. And how is that a bad thing? I mean how is it bad for the consumer? What's seedy is creepy people like you taking pot shots at small business owners and their employees. A small business doesn't stay in business long if they don't treat their customers fairly. It is clear that you have no idea how to run a successful business. These business owners have to work their butts off to compete with big box stores. You can admire James Dyson for his inventions without falling in love with him.
This message was modified Sep 11, 2009 by Severus
The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable. The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #99 Sep 11, 2009 2:55 pm |
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Oh come on Carmine, you’ve got this pink DC07 “nailed to your families floor” only so you can refer to it and fail it out (in conversations). - Not unlike some con men independents that have beat up Dyson’s “nailed to their sales floors.” FYI, older DC07’s are a favorite “nailed to the floor” “whippin boy” amongst the seedy independents.
DIB DIB, So if I understand correctly, you are saying that some independent stores have Dyson DC07 demo machines in their showrooms ,so that the customer has the opportunity to make a head to head comparison of their products to the Dyson. And how is that a bad thing? I mean how is it bad for the consumer? What's seedy is creepy people like you taking pot shots at small business owners and their employees. A small business doesn't stay in business long if they don't treat their customers fairly. It is clear that you have no idea how to run a successful business. These business owners have to work their butts off to compete with big box stores. You can admire James Dyson for his inventions without falling in love with him. Severus (and not Venson), Re: “their customers”. When these hard workers move people into products they carry and profit from (becoming “their customers”) by unfairly and untruthfully bad-mouthing or doing junk science demo’s against their competitor’s products, it ain’t much of a business now is it? These types deserve what they get… to work their butts off and for little. Re: "hard workers". Well, at least we agree on something… the lack of 100% integrity coming from many vacuum cleaner independent dealers. You did not describe the greatest attribute amongst men, that is - “integrity” - and rightfully so. Many of these hard workers are only as honest as needed. Hard workers + less than 100% integrity = A drag on society. I can picture a conversation going like this… Hello, I’d like you to meet my friend who is a hard worker and can be trusted 80% of the time. Cons are friends with cons. Thieves are friends with thieves. The self-serving are friends with the self-serving and on and on. You’re a loyal friend to these “hard workers”. DIB
This message was modified Sep 11, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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Severus
If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #100 Sep 11, 2009 3:24 pm |
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Severus (and not Venson), Re: Hard workers. Well, at least we agree on something… the lack of 100% integrity coming from many vacuum cleaner independent dealers. You did not describe the greatest attribute amongst men, that is - “integrity” - and rightfully so. Many of these hard workers are only as honest as needed. Hard workers + less than 100% integrity = A drag on society. I can picture a conversation going like this… Hello, I’d like you to meet my friend who is a hard worker and can be trusted 80% of the time. Cons are friends with cons. Thieves are friends with thieves. The self-serving are friends with the self-serving and on and on. You’re a loyal friend to these “hard workers”. Re: “their customers”. When these hard workers move people into products they carry and profit from (becoming “their customers”) by unfairly and untruthfully bad-mouthing or doing junk science demo’s against their competitor’s products, it ain’t much of a business now is it? These types deserve what they get… to work their butts off and for little. DIB So now it's unfair to pit a Dyson against other brands in head to head tests because the Dyson will look bad? Please explain. I'm afraid that i have a difficult time following the logic of your rants against independent small business persons. You impugn their integrity with no explanation. You make the faulty assumption that its a mistake for anyone to buy anything but a Dyson. Absolute hogwash. A good salesman sells the consumer the product that best meets their needs. Certainly Dysons are good matches for some people, but for many people they are not.
It's amusing that you think Dyson products are above criticism. No product is above criticism. The higher the price, the greater our expectations should be as consumers. James Dyson is as much a salesman as he is an inventor. He wrote his autobiography, to make sure that his story was told the way he wanted it told - No different than the US politicians who write books about themselves - to put themselves in the best light possible. There are certainly many positives to say about James and his products. However, those of us with open minds can see flaws in his products as well.
The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable. The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #102 Sep 11, 2009 4:38 pm |
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Severus (and not Venson), Re: Hard workers. Well, at least we agree on something… the lack of 100% integrity coming from many vacuum cleaner independent dealers. You did not describe the greatest attribute amongst men, that is - “integrity” - and rightfully so. Many of these hard workers are only as honest as needed. Hard workers + less than 100% integrity = A drag on society. I can picture a conversation going like this… Hello, I’d like you to meet my friend who is a hard worker and can be trusted 80% of the time. Cons are friends with cons. Thieves are friends with thieves. The self-serving are friends with the self-serving and on and on. You’re a loyal friend to these “hard workers”. Re: “their customers”. When these hard workers move people into products they carry and profit from (becoming “their customers”) by unfairly and untruthfully bad-mouthing or doing junk science demo’s against their competitor’s products, it ain’t much of a business now is it? These types deserve what they get… to work their butts off and for little. DIB So now it's unfair to pit a Dyson against other brands in head to head tests because the Dyson will look bad? Please explain. I'm afraid that i have a difficult time following the logic of your rants against independent small business persons. You impugn their integrity with no explanation. You make the faulty assumption that its a mistake for anyone to buy anything but a Dyson. Absolute hogwash. A good salesman sells the consumer the product that best meets their needs. Certainly Dysons are good matches for some people, but for many people they are not. It's amusing that you think Dyson products are above criticism. No product is above criticism. The higher the price, the greater our expectations should be as consumers. James Dyson is as much a salesman as he is an inventor. He wrote his autobiography, to make sure that his story was told the way he wanted it told - No different than the US politicians who write books about themselves - to put themselves in the best light possible. There are certainly many positives to say about James and his products. However, those of us with open minds can see flaws in his products as well. Severus (and not Venson), No, you cannot rewrite my history (create a pseudo-history), because it is already public (documented). I’ve said plenty on how I applaud small business owners, the risks and the courage it takes to go it alone. I’ve also said plenty that many and certainly NOT ALL vacuum independents are dirty. Many (not all) are envious too. Am I a shrink? No. - Their Dyson bellyaching and whining screams jealousy. [In house, independent] “Test?” No. A forgone conclusion? Yes. He who controls the pseudo-”tests” also controls the pseudo-”results.” In your many decades of vacuum enthusiasm and internet prowess, you could surely link here a “test” by an independent (by name and city) that demonstrates (by way of measurements) wether Dyson filters as advertised and wether bags choke as Dyson advertises. DIB P.S. If you cannot get a video linked showing a Dyson v. bag filtration test, surely one of the 200 or so collectors or one of North Americans 18,000 or so independents could belly up with said test.
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Severus
If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #104 Sep 11, 2009 5:22 pm |
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Severus (and not Venson), No, you cannot rewrite my history (create a pseudo-history), because it is already public (documented). I’ve said plenty on how I applaud small business owners, the risks and the courage it takes to go it alone. I’ve also said plenty that many and certainly NOT ALL vacuum independents are dirty. Many (not all) are envious too. Am I a shrink? No. - Their Dyson bellyaching and whining screams jealousy. [In house, independent] “Test?” No. A forgone conclusion? Yes. He who controls the pseudo-”tests” also controls the pseudo-”results.” In your many decades of vacuum enthusiasm and internet prowess, you could surely link here a “test” by an independent (by name and city) that demonstrates (by way of measurements) wether Dyson filters as advertised and wether bags choke as Dyson advertises. DIB P.S. If you cannot get a video linked showing a Dyson v. bag filtration test, surely one of the 200 or so collectors or one of North Americans 18,000 or so independents could belly up with said test. Now we're getting somewhere - you've provided one source of your confusion. The primary function of a vacuum cleaner isn't to maintain suction; it is to remove dirt from the rug. You accuse independents of using deception, yet the test you advocate is a deception. You fail to understand that a vacuum performs using both air flow/suction and agitation. The nozzle design is also important. Bagged vacuums continue to be effective as the bag fills with dirt. If bags clogged as Dyson suggests, they would actually blow up once all of the pores were filled. Yet, that doesn't happen in practice in normal household conditions. There are documented cases of users neglecting to empty bags until the bag is completely filled and the dirt fill tube is completely clogged. How could this happen if bagged vacuums are supposed to lose all cleaning ability when they are less than 1/2 full?
Using your definition of dirty, James Dyson is a dirty con man. He only tells part of the story. Certainly he focuses on the advantages of his vacuums - just as his competitors do. He is no better than they are. His vacuums have many weaknesses, and an honest independent salesman will gladly point them out to you.
The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable. The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #109 Sep 14, 2009 12:12 pm |
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Why Dyson (society?) over bagged... Dyson can guarantee No Loss of Suction (strength) for a period of time (1 month to many years). There is not a bag vac manufacturer or a bag manufacturer (including the mighty 3M) that can give this guarantee. Dyson owners like the convenience and/or looking at how much they have collected in their clear bins vice a concealed bag. Dyson owners enjoy not having to locate and the costs associated with collection bags and/or filters. Dyson Ball owners like having more maneuverability-choices/flexibility when saddled with the chore of vacuuming. Dyson owns broad patents on the Ball, and only Dyson has the legal right to manufacturer this type of steering (best in the world steering) vacuum cleaners.<BR><BR>Dyson owns broad patents on the Core + Root filtration and only Dyson has the legal right to manufacturer these type of separators (best in the world filtration w/DDM) vacuum cleaners. Dyson DDM DC22 owners enjoy having what looks to be the strongest suctioning, smallest footprint canister in the world vacuum cleaner. Dyson owners enjoy the convenience of quick bin dumping (although they have not figured out or been taught how to [mostly] eliminate the dust plume, a shame).
DIB
MM some interesting statements there, DIB.
Dyson can guarantee No Loss of Suction for a lifetime, dependent on the maintenance that the owner puts in for caring for their machine. This doesn't mean that after three years if the filters haven't been touched owners can moan about why their vacuum isn't picking up the way it should. People have become lazy which is why the bagless idea works well - no need to get out of your house and find bag replacements. Bags work differently because they all clog with dust but some are different from others because of their sealing textures (cue Miele and Sebo) so can last longer than standard 2 ply paper bags.
And filters by Dyson have to be replaced eventually so there are not always 'lifetime guaranteed" again dependent largely on the matter of dust picked up per owner and their homes. This is why Dyson filters are washable but even the most washed filter can begin to lose its strength compared to one that hasn't been tainted.
Not all Dyson owners like to see what they have collected. Would you like a see through toilet in your home? I know I wouldn't! How convenient is it really to see what you have picked up from your carpet?
As for the patents, let Dyson have as many as they wish. The strongest suction is all very well on hard flooring but I wonder just how much pull a Dyson has in terms of destroying actual carpet textures coupled with an additional brush bar?
Dyson owners may well enjoy the convience of quick bin dumping but most report (in reviews especially) that clouds of dust re-enter the homes or their lungs. How healthy is that? In this respect despite the older reliance, paper bags are better for keeping all that dust in. VacuumUK, Re: Clear bin: Well, you’re nit picking. Here’s some nit-picking back-at-ya…. Where are the studies and what percentages of Dyson owners dislike the clear bin? I would question the intelligence or logic behind owning a clear bin Dyson and then disliking what it does – show’s users the results of Dyson-filtration/Dyson ownership, when the bin is full/time to empty, etc. Sir James Dyson tells the story of the focus group debacle - when this group denounced his clear bin before launching the first Dyson. And he also enjoys telling his dislike and distrust of focus groups and enjoys telling how many Dyson owners love the clear bin. I’d guess that the number of clear bins manufactured (copied from Dyson’s design and success) number around 100m worldwide and growing. Dyson not listening to this focus group has made many competing manufacturers rich. Re: Looking before [flushing] emptying: When Sir James was invited to speak at Yale, MIT and Stanford and while speaking at Yale he received a big laugh from the crowd when he said people did indeed like “looking” at what they vacuumed up. He went on to say it was like taking a look before flushing. Everybody (except you?) “looks”, and that’s why it got a big laugh. Re: Patents: Only a fool would become a vacuum manufacturer without strong proprietary patents. Up until the recession, these patents provided (directly or indirectly) Sir James an annual net of around $110m-$120m per year. Re: “clouds of dust re-entering homes or lungs”: Well, this a lame claim. Dyson has filed a lawsuit over Oreck’s deliberately (infomercial) “dusting out a home” when emptying a clear bin. Again, I’d question the intelligence of emptying a clear bin inside a home as Oreck did and as CR does. I’d question the reasoning and logic of emptying inside a home as you suggest. And I’d question the intelligence of not following the example Dyson gives in their instruction’s (using a plastic bag). If vacuum dealers and collectors were as smart and unbiased as they claim, then they would gladly show how a simple water mist lined plastic bag can/will grab much of the floating dust. Re: Bags v. bin dumping: Only because bags choke and leave dirt, dust and debris behind in carpeting’s do folks forgo bag vacuums. I’ve read that 46% of the UK are using bin’s vice bags. DIB Note: Venson (who’s not Severus) - No need to write a reply on deliberately dusting a home when emptying a bin. We’ve had this conversation before.
This message was modified Sep 14, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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Venson
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #111 Sep 14, 2009 1:49 pm |
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Note: Venson (who’s not Severus) -- No need to write a reply on deliberately dusting a home when emptying a bin. We’ve had this conversation before.
Thanks DIB but I am not in need of your permission to speak as it is not and never was required here. I'll decide on when and about what I'll reply to even though, in this case, there's little you given us to think on. As usual you're merely spouting "information" you got off a Dyson box or one of Lord Jimmy's press releases. His mouth is no prayerbook and his behind is no stack of bibles. In general terms, your're plastic bag theory is useless as it merely adds additional steps to what bagless vacs are said to make simple. (That's what the average consumer looks for -- time savers.) If I have to run for a plastic bag to empty a bagless machine that I am advised and encouraged by the manufacturer to empty after each use I might as well have a machine with a disposable bag and save myself the time. As regards highly sensitive persons -- for whom bagless vac is discouraged -- if a central vac system is not an option, although $#%*bersome and a challenge to maintain, a water-type vac might be the better ticket. All collected dirt, etc., is wet down and merely has to be flushed away. I would suggest that you go tell Dyson to stop bothering with suing other manufacturers and go for something monumental like taking Consumer Reports to court. It strongly discourages the use of bagless vacuums by those who suffer from exposure to dust. As for patents, Dyson I am sure will come to see that they're only good for so many runs to the courthouse. Then they'll probably stop moaning and groaning and get to making better product. Venson
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #112 Sep 14, 2009 6:19 pm |
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VacuumUK,
Re: Looking before [flushing] emptying: When Sir James was invited to speak at Yale, MIT and Stanford and while speaking at Yale he received a big laugh from the crowd when he said people did indeed like “looking” at what they vacuumed up. He went on to say it was like taking a look before flushing. Everybody (except you) “looks” and that’s why it got a big laugh.
Re: Bags v. bin dumping: Only because bags choke and leave dirt, dust and debris behind in carpeting’s do folks forgo bag vacuums. I’ve read that 46% of the UK are using bin’s vice bags.
DIB
DIB:
You're lack of logic and sense is pitiful. The students laughed becaused it is funny not because it is true. Look it's simple even you can grasp: A bagged vacuum user puts a new EMPTY FRESH bag in the vacuum [in the house, not outside]. Then, in 2-3-4-5-6 weeks, depending on the size of the bag, vacuum usage, the user looks [if it doesn't have a full-bag indicator like most bagged vacuums do] at the bag to see if the debris is up to the FULL LINE, just like they do with your fave brand, except a lot less often. If so, the user removes the FULL DIRTY bag and tosses in the trash [inside the house not outside in the trash]. They see the dirt picked up too, don't they? If not, they wouldn't have to replace the bag. Right! WRT bin versus bag, [ASSUMING your facts are accurate since you did not provide proof/source of authority] 46% is not quite half. So dyson, by bad mouthing bagged vacuums, losses 54 percent of UK vacuum buyers/users. Dah! The majority. It would appear a bright entrepeneur/inventor like James would want to capture all the market not just a portion of 46 percent. Sounds dumb to write-off 54 percent of the UK vacuum buyers/users even before getting started. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 14, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #113 Sep 14, 2009 7:24 pm |
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VacuumUK,
Re: Patents: Only a fool would become a vacuum manufacturer without strong proprietary patents. Up until the recession, these patents provided (directly or indirectly) Sir James an annual net of around $110m-$120m per year.
DIB
Again, DIB, your logic and business sense woefully fails to meet an asset litmus test. Take the high end amount IN GOOD TIMES of $120,000,000 and divide by 500 dyson engineers. The result is $240,000 per engineer. Then deduct the engineers' salaries. Let's say $100,000 per being conservative, probably more but let's lo-ball. That's $50 MILLION in salaries. What's left? $70 MILLION. Before paying the in-house cost of the dyson patent lawyers and his hired legal guns in 3 piece suits with 3 names from New York City. What's left, if anything, is not alot of money, DIB. Quite the opposite.
Dyson isn't interested in producing/selling leading edge floorcare products. He wants to sue others who actually do and take a piece of their profits. Ironically, they may not even know they are infringing on dyson patents. James: what a vacuum guy! Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 14, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #114 Sep 14, 2009 7:40 pm |
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VacuumUK,
Re: “clouds of dust re-entering homes or lungs”: Well, this a lame claim. Dyson has filed a lawsuit over Oreck’s deliberately (infomercial) “dusting out a home” when emptying a clear bin. Again, I’d question the intelligence of emptying a clear bin inside a home as Oreck did and as CR does. I’d question the reasoning and logic of emptying inside a home as you suggest. And I’d question the intelligence of not following the example Dyson gives in their instruction’s (using a plastic bag). If vacuum dealers and collectors were as smart and unbiased as they claim, then they would gladly show how a simple water mist lined plastic bag can/will grab much of the floating dust.
DIB
First, DIB, the plastic bag for bin dumping is users with dust allergies, asthma, and sinus problems, not all dyson users. Right. Get your facts straight. Read the dyson user guide.
Second, if users change their vacuum bags inside the house and dispose of the old bags in the trash inside the house, why not do the same for bagless? The answer is obvious. ORECK demonstrates the mushrooms of dirt clouds that pervade the inside air from bin dumping even when you can't see them. Are you and dyson reinventing the bin dumping practice after the fact just for your own convenience? At the expense of increased user time and effort for bagless bin dumping? Sounds like a huge inconvenience for buyers/users of bagless vacuums. Add in the cost of the pre-post filters, especially HEPA, and the several times a year for filter maintenance, and you have huge headaches and out of pocket expenses. Do you see why 54 percent of the UK vacuum users choose bags over bins? Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 14, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #115 Sep 14, 2009 7:55 pm |
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VacuumUK,
Re: Clear bin: Well, you’re nit picking. Here’s some nit-picking back-at-ya…. Where are the studies and what percentages of Dyson owners dislike the clear bin?
I would question the intelligence or logic behind owning a clear bin’d Dyson and then disliking what it does – show’s users the results of Dyson-filtration/Dyson ownership, when the bin is full/time to empty, etc. Sir James Dyson tells the story of the focus group debacle - when this group denounced his clear bin before launching the first Dyson. And he also enjoys telling his dislike and distrust of focus groups and enjoys telling how many Dyson owners love the clear bin. I’d guess that the number of clear bins manufactured (copied from Dyson’s design and success) number around 100m worldwide and growing. Dyson not listening to this focus group has made many competing manufacturers rich.
DIB
You just told us that 46 percent of UK vacuum users buy/use bagless. Then, 54 percent use bags. Bags win over bins in the UK and probably in the rest of the vacuum world. So what's your point? You and dirt bins lose. Bags win.
WRT seeing is believing, how about all the unseen dirt and dust that gets imbedded in the cyclones over time that users can't see and never gets dumped. Just builds up. What is that doing to the filtering capacity and efficiency of bagless operations? Choking it. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 14, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #116 Sep 14, 2009 8:03 pm |
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VacuumUK, Note: Venson (who’s not Severus) - No need to write a reply on deliberately dusting a home when emptying a bin. We’ve had this conversation before. DIB
Apparently all the discussions and proof are falling on deaf ears and blind eyes. Why? Dyson is suing ORECK for disclosing the health hazards of dyson dirt bin dumping in the home. Yet, Consumer Reports and doctors and even you agree it is not healthy and clean. In fact they recommend using dust maskes to cover the face when bin dumping [inside/out]. Not just for asthma and allergy users, but for all bagless users. Dumb dyson is suing anyways. More money than sense. How much will this frivolous lawsuit cost dyson when it's lost? Lot's of sales of new, used and dyson refurbs. The ruling will support what the vacuum industry has siad for years. It's a health hazard. May even result in many bagless returns and a fall-off in bagless sales. I suspect the ruling may even result in a warning label on all bagless vacuums to all users that bagless bin dumping poses a potential health risk to all and pollutes the air. What do you and dyson think about that?
Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 14, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #117 Sep 15, 2009 6:52 am |
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After more than 25 years of James Dyson spouting his beliefs/selling his bagless products, the majority of vacuum consumers in the UK still prefer bags. As they do around the world. The product choices that a few make are never good for everybody. There are facts and circumstances that make vacuum preferences an individual matter. WRT Melanie, aka Catlady, she was outraged by the cost of MIELE paper bags on her new S7. BUT she said here in no uncertain terms that she would never buy/use a bagless vacuum regardless. Why? She is an allergy and asthma sufferer. While bags are expensive for her needs, she would suffer terribly with a bagless vacuum and more than likely would not be able to do the vacuuming. James Dyson forgot all the people like Melanie. Dyson's arrogance has certainly cost the brand the majority of bagged vacuum users in the UK. And likely elsewhere in the world. The vacuum industry provides users with options. Let them decide what works best for their money and needs. Not James Dyson, who is the least qualified in the industry to know and the most prejudiced too. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 15, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #119 Sep 15, 2009 9:16 am |
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If you do not like paying for bags just buy an Oreck. They most likely would not pick up a bag full in a year. Even if the bag was half the size that they are. HS: I'm amazed at the huge size of ORECK bags and the amount they are filled when I replace. It is generally agreed that 8 ORECK bags [@ about $12 per pack] last a year. For most users this is probably true. Since you were a dirt bin dumper once, how many trips to the outside trash can with the dirt bin would that make in a year? Add in the plastic bags to accumulate and contain the clear bin dirt, and how much does that add to the bagless bananza? Carmine D.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #120 Sep 15, 2009 9:31 am |
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Dysons dirt bin is just an illusion,Why, paper or filter bags compress and pack the dirt The dirt bin does not acomplish this thus making the debris in the container look like more than it really is. And by the way the center of the bag is still open to keep the suction consistant,, The best for airflow is still a top load design. How would the dyson work with a filter bag in it?. Heres a tip for you Sir Jimmy, it would centralize the suction better and compress the dirt and only would have to be changed every 4 to 6 weeks,under normal household conditions.Of course you would have to change the chacateristics of your cyclone design and feed it from the top down. Of course then your vacuum will be just as good as a 39.95 dirt devil[bagged upright]. Of course you still have the wildest colors on the market, Did the contract with HASBRO expire yet. REGARDS MOLE
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #121 Sep 15, 2009 12:37 pm |
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DIB: We've had all the discussions you re-posted above before many times too. You inevitably repeat the dyson party line . Why? Your perspective is always that of one who has his head up James's posterior. Hence, the reason you look before James flushes. Carmine D. When you check yourself into "the program" for bad-mouthing vac-shop owners, you should seek help for your nose troubles too. VacuumUK and I have rarely talked (if ever and if my memory is correct). VacuumUK went after some of my statements and I fired back. Venson and his caped crusader alter-ego (aka Severus) have had their chance (we've discussed before). DIB
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Severus
If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #124 Sep 15, 2009 1:41 pm |
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Carmine, Dont you realize that your dealing with an intellectual juggernaut. I assume that when DIB speaks, he is spouting the official Dyson position. Clearly DBI has insider information, even knowing the details of the red headed model and the photo shoot. I assume that Dyson pays him to push the Dyson message on this forum, and when he's not doing that he's filling out positive Dyson product reviews on other web sites. I suspect, he even fills out negative reviews on competitors products. We also knows that he monitors the Home Shopping Network, utube and other web sites to spread the Dyson message. When DIB's message is completely incoherent, it's because of the restrictions Dyson places on him. DIB cannot answer our questions, because he doesn't always have Dyson's permission to speak, so he has to throw out a Dyson slogan - even if it makes no sense. One would think that a company with as many smart people as Dyson has would have found a better spokesperson, but maybe the marketing budget got cut back with the downturn in the economy.
The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable. The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #125 Sep 15, 2009 1:47 pm |
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DIB: When you spew untruths and lies here, and dyson spun fairy tales, my nose and mouth will respond to you and them. Be assured of this regardless of whom/what are the recipient of your posts. If you can't deal with the truth DIB, which apparently is the case and has been of late [amazing what no dyson bonuses for 2008 and 2009 will do to one's mental capacities], regardless of the source, then you are the one who is truly in need of rehab here. Does your employer provide these types of assistance to its slaves, I mean employees? Carmine D. Carmine, You support and play-along with the caped-crusader and Venson’s alter-ego by the name “Severus” (a Harry Potter character)... and you claim to be a man of truth and me living a fairy tale???? I’ll tell you a fairy tale... bad-mouthing, envious vacuum dealers or dealer groupies who do not lie or have an original and substantial thought. DIB
This message was modified Sep 15, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #126 Sep 15, 2009 2:24 pm |
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Carmine,
You support and play-along with the caped-crusader and Venson’s alter-ego by the name “Severus” (a Harry Potter character)... and you claim to be a man of truth and me living a fairy tale????
I’ll tell you a fairy tale... a bad-mouthing, envious vacuum dealer or dealer groupie with an original and substantial thought.
DIB DIB:
I am a seeker of all vacuum truths. I go to great lengths to seek, find and reveal. This site and the posters who read/post here like Venson and SEVERUS [and a host of others] do a remarkable job with providing the vacuum truths and facts. It's hard for persons like you, who don't know the vacuum industry, but dabble here as a hobby, to understand and comprehend us. You take all dyson criticism personal as tho it is directed to you. It's not. It's about dyson's products and product claims. The dyson products should be able to go toe to toe in the industry with all the competition up and down the price scale based on facts, results and performance. If dyson comes up lacking especially with bagged competitors as lower costs, accept the constructive criticism and do soemthing positive to assist dyson in improving itself. You appear to cast a blind eye and deaf ear to all vacuum truth by using smear campaigns against vacuum stores and name calling for posters here. You insist on defending James, and his products and claims [lies] but you offer only more panned dyson slogans and marketing hype. This sadly puts you at fault. You are either shortsighted and/or just obtuse. Quite possibly you are both. The reasons for your behavior are on you not us. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 15, 2009 by CarmineD
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #127 Sep 15, 2009 2:26 pm |
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Carmine, Dont you realize that your dealing with an intellectual juggernaut. Hey, give a guy a break... I’m just trying to “keep up” with the *fella’s who have their thumbs on the pulse and keys to life. DIB *The bad-mouthing do-nothin’s and never-were’s.
This message was modified Sep 15, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #128 Sep 15, 2009 2:41 pm |
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Hey, give a guy a break... I’m just trying to “keep up” with the fella’s who have their thumbs on the pulse and keys to life... the bad-mouthing do-nothin’s and never-were’s.
DIB DIB:
You can't be and do both. They are mutually exclusive. We who strive for the pulse of the vacuum industry and hold the keys to its life can't be bad mouthers, do-nothings, and never weres. These latter types are not in our sphere of influence. Why? Most of those you name call and impugn here with your dribble have years of experience in the biz. They built honorable businesses and reputations in the industry with years of experience. How many years do you have in the vacuum business? Or any business? Do you slave, I mean work, for a boss/bosses? Carmine D.
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #129 Sep 15, 2009 3:48 pm |
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Carmine,
You support and play-along with the caped-crusader and Venson’s alter-ego by the name “Severus” (a Harry Potter character)... and you claim to be a man of truth and me living a fairy tale????
I’ll tell you a fairy tale... a bad-mouthing, envious vacuum dealer or dealer groupie with an original and substantial thought.
DIB DIB: I am a seeker of all vacuum truths. I go to great lengths to seek, find and reveal. This site and the posters who read/post here like Venson and SEVERUS [and a host of others] do a remarkable job with providing the vacuum truths and facts. It's hard for persons like you, who don't know the vacuum industry, but dabble here as a hobby, to understand and comprehend us. You take all dyson criticism personal as tho it is directed to you. It's not. It's about dyson's products and product claims. The dyson products should be able to go toe to toe in the industry with all the competition up and down the price scale based on facts, results and performance. If dyson comes up lacking especially with bagged competitors as lower costs, accept the constructive criticism and do soemthing positive to assist dyson in improving itself. You appear to cast a blind eye and deaf ear to all vacuum truth by using smear campaigns against vacuum stores and name calling for posters here. You insist on defending James, and his products and claims [lies] but you offer only more panned dyson slogans and marketing hype. This sadly puts you at fault. You are either shortsighted and/or just obtuse. Quite possibly you are both. The reasons for your behavior are on you not us. Carmine D. Carmine, So your wife's "cool with it." - She's cool with you role-playing or going along with other men who do? DIB
This message was modified Sep 15, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #131 Sep 15, 2009 4:18 pm |
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DIB: More soup questions! Carmine D. Let her make that determination and determine if it's relevant (a soup question). You have no problem running to her with Dyson products (“to review”). So, why not run to her with the "new you?" DIB
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #132 Sep 15, 2009 5:18 pm |
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DIB: I don't have to run anywhere for anybody unless and until I feel compelled to do so. When I do, it most surely will not be for you. Other than telling me I had a nose problem for addressing all the points you posted to vacmanuk, you have yet responded to my posts let alone provide proof to the contrary. Another ploy of yours. When confronted with the truth and facts, even a logical deduction based on the former, you skirt away and bury your head in the sand like an ostrich. Look up the definition of ostrich. It fits you here perfectly. Carmine D.
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Severus
If my vacuum can remove even one spec of dirt that yours misses, then mine is better than yours - even if there's no proof that mine would have picked up as much dirt as yours...
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 397
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #133 Sep 15, 2009 5:41 pm |
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Carmine,
You support and play-along with the caped-crusader and Venson’s alter-ego by the name “Severus” (a Harry Potter character)... and you claim to be a man of truth and me living a fairy tale????
I’ll tell you a fairy tale... bad-mouthing, envious vacuum dealers or dealer groupies who do not lie or have an original and substantial thought.
DIB
DIB, Please explain how your fairy tale name "DysonInventsBig" is any more real than my rather arbitrary selection of "Severus"?
This message was modified Sep 15, 2009 by Severus
The smart tyrant writes his own story to ensure that it is favorable. The lazy will repeat lines from the book without fact checking.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #135 Sep 16, 2009 7:03 am |
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Hello Procare: Vacuum customers buy new vacuums yearly and thereabouts from the big box rip off stores because their old vacuums are not working properly. What's cheap? Bagless. What's hyped? Dysons. They buy a cat in the bag with no demo, no key points to using and maintaining, and no advice about parts purchases/replacements and service tips. When the new vacuum fails after 9 months, assuming it was not returned during the grace period, they are stuck. Call the maker, get the runaround. Call the retailer, get the runaround. Reference the recent wand contacts that failed under warranty on the Eureka-Lux Oxygen [sold by big box store for $281]. A common problem. Vacuum customers will eventually get it. When they do, they'll trust in their local vacuum stores for their vacuum needs rather than hoping in the big box rip off stores who profit on the sales of vacuums. Of course a few vocal ostriches here will impugn all vacuum stores with their tirades of the vacuum stores' anti-bagless rants and raves. Nothing new. It helps the big box rip off stores sell their fave high priced bagless brands to gullible customers year after year with the great bagless vacuum myth of no costs after purchase. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 16, 2009 by CarmineD
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #136 Sep 16, 2009 7:57 am |
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Hello Procare: Vacuum customers buy new vacuums yearly and thereabouts from the big box rip off stores because their old vacuums are not working properly. What's cheap? Bagless. What's hyped? Dysons. They buy a cat in the bag with no demo, no key points to using and maintaining, and no advice about parts purchases/replacements and service tips. When the new vacuum fails after 9 months, assuming it was not returned during the grace period, they are stuck. Call the maker, get the runaround. Call the retailer, get the runaround. Reference the recent wand contacts that failed under warranty on the Eureka-Lux Oxygen [sold by big box store for $281]. A common problem. Vacuum customers will eventually get it. When they do, they'll trust in their local vacuum stores for their vacuum needs rather than hoping in the big box rip off stores who profit on the sales of vacuums. Of course a few vocal ostriches here will impugn all vacuum stores with their tirades of the vacuum stores' anti-bagless rants and raves. Nothing new. It helps the big box rip off stores sell their fave high priced bagless brands to gullible customers year after year with the great bagless vacuum myth of no costs after purchase. Carmine D. You tell us that other brands sell more units than Dyson. Then you tell us that Dyson is being taken off most shelves. That only leaves the other brands to be the cat in the bag. Bagged or bagless, the rip off ic from sales of the disposable (cheap) vacs.
You failed to mention that you continually buy the cheap-o vacs from BB stores and gift the junk to others. You should also mention the very expensive Miele that failed almost out of the box and the dealer botched the repair. Miele had to force the dealer to "make it right". As you have said. You research and if you can't find anything negative about Dyson you make up something to report.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #137 Sep 16, 2009 8:07 am |
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Hello HARDSELL: I knew you would post. You never let me down. Dyson is the most hyped of all bagless brands AND the most expensive of all the big box rip off store brands. Big box rip off stores sell them for the huge profit margins not because they sell quickly. Have to sell alot of $40 Dirt Devil PowerGlides and $70 HOOVER Tempos to make the profit on one $600 dyson. Catlady got her new MIELE S7. The holdup was the new model, a tester, and the back and forth between dealer and maker to get the wrong righted. It was MIELE that gave Melanie the new vacuum not the dealer. Glad I can set you straight. It's almost a full time job with you and DIB both. BTW, buying another XL ORECK Classic from the local ORECK store in Vegas. Such a deal I couldn't refuse. It's a gift too. For the local Church parish secretary. She's been using a HOOVER Elite that's older than you. This will be a welcome surprise for her and the Church office. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 16, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #138 Sep 16, 2009 8:36 am |
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.... You research and if you can't find anything negative about Dyson you make up something to report. Mostly HS it's just the dyson hype and high prices for the mediocre performance that makes the dyson brand a standout in the big box rip off stores. No wonder James went with this sales venue over the indies.
Vacuum buyers don't care about 500 engineers and brush cams, accentuators, clutches and cyclones. They just want a vacuum that performs well and meets their money/household needs w/o needing a bank loan. Carmine D.
This message was modified Sep 16, 2009 by CarmineD
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #139 Sep 16, 2009 8:43 am |
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Hello HARDSELL: I knew you would post. You never let me down. Dyson is the most hyped of all bagless brands AND the most expensive of all the big box rip off store brands. Big box rip off stores sell them for the huge profit margins not because they sell quickly. Have to sell alot of $40 Dirt Devil PowerGlides and $70 HOOVER Tempos to make the profit on one $600 dyson. Dyson is not nearly so hyped as Oreck. I remember when it was Hoover. Since they went busted and you had to eat so much crow you picked another brand. According to you the stores sell more of those cheapies. The indies have to do a lot of repairs on all those other brands to stay in business since new vac sales are not their primary source of income. I suppose that balances the economy. Catlady got her new MIELE S7. The holdup was the new model, a tester, and the back and forth between dealer and maker to get the wrong righted. It was MIELE that gave Melanie the new vacuum not the dealer. Glad I can set you straight. It's almost a full time job with you and DIB both. I know the story. The indie botched the repair and Miele had to make it right. Glad to repay the favor and set you straight, BTW, buying another XL ORECK Classic from the local ORECK store in Vegas. Such a deal I couldn't refuse. It's a gift too. For the local Church parish secretary. She's been using a HOOVER Elite that's older than you. This will be a welcome surprise for her and the Church office. I think the surprice will be when the church doesn't get any cleaner. BTW the Hoover Platinum with the canister is a much better buy at $255 than the XL. Carmine D.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #140 Sep 16, 2009 8:49 am |
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Its becoming very transparent to us now that by what DIB posts that dyson knows that its game over in the states,The indy's are tired of the B.S. with dealing with this make believe vacuum company, which in reality is just a money laundering scheme. The only avenue left is HSN and refurbs on E-BAY, Its also very obivious now that DYSON has no intentions of opening factory stores in the states, So whens TTI going to buyout DYSON for pennies on the dollar or yen ,Its coming folks and now dib and the rest of the robber barons so called educated overly smart people will be working at the local burger king. B.T.W Carmine, Severus,procare,and Venson will still be around when your long gone.I just might keep H.S just as a whipping boy. regards MOLE
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #141 Sep 16, 2009 8:56 am |
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HS: ORECK and HOOVER are still in your craw? You're getting over HOOVER if you are enjoying your bagged HOOVER Platinum lightweight. Congrats. It's okay for $299. ORECK is a tad better for repairs and parts. With 500 stores. It builds brand loyalty and customers. Like HOOVER use to do before it went the big box rip off route like dyson does. Better start talking up the ORECK Clean Home Centers and vacuum store indies here. They are the only repairers of dysons when they break down unless you want to ship it back to dyson. WHere is that now? UK? Malaysia? Chicago? NYC? I can never remember. Imagine! The low life ne'er do wells that you and DIB bad mouth here so often now hold the future life blood of dyson in their hands. James will have to make nice nice now. MIELE's in your craw too. It's the German engineers. Takes 500 dyson engineers to make one MIELE engineer. MIELE dealers are top shelf all the way. IMMER BESSER. 80 years in the vacuum biz and still making vacuums that last 20 years before they are handed down to friends and family for round 2. Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #142 Sep 16, 2009 8:56 am |
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Its becoming very transparent to us now that by what DIB posts that dyson knows that its game over in the states,The indy's are tired of the B.S. with dealing with this make believe vacuum company, which in reality is just a money laundering scheme. The only avenue left is HSN and refurbs on E-BAY, Its also very obivious now that DYSON has no intentions of opening factory stores in the states, So whens TTI going to buyout DYSON for pennies on the dollar or yen ,Its coming folks and now dib and the rest of the robber barons so called educated overly smart people will be working at the local burger king. B.T.W Carmine, Severus,procare,and Venson will still be around when your long gone.I just might keep H.S just as a whipping boy. regards MOLE I got a can of whoop ass waiting for you.
How about a WHOOPING from one of those gals at B&D or Dyson. Or is that whoopy?
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #143 Sep 16, 2009 9:14 am |
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I got a can of whoop ass waiting for you. How about a WHOOPING from one of those gals at B&D or Dyson. Or is that whoopy?
Do i have to buy them lunch or dinner or will a 6 pack of pabst blue ribbon work?
Will they clean my home or yours in the buff? Would i have to give her a ride back to the trailer park or should i give her cab fare? Was your mother really a man?? MOLE
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #145 Sep 17, 2009 9:05 am |
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Dyson does it little. When I go into Wal-mart ,K- Mart, Target or any other Big Box Store I see up to 10 or more bagless vacuums. It seems that they want to sell something they know will be replaced in a short time. Look in the trash being put out everyday and you find bagless being set out. I see very-very few bagged vacuums in the trash. People buy a lot of bags or the bagged section would not be there. Instead of being down Aerus -Electrolux sales are up. Tri Star sales are up, Kirby sales are up. Sorry I can't say anything about Filter Queen , Rainbow or other door to door brands but they may be up to. All these brands are bagged except for 2. FQ and Rainbow. Everytime one of these companies come to my area an influx of business occurs. Not for bagless vacuums but bagged. People have been buying vacuums every year around 16-17 million cleaners.Why? Hello Procare: Give people 2 vacuums: One a bagged and one a bagless and let them use both for a year. At the end of the year ask them to give one up and keep one. I suspect most if not all will give up the bagless and keep the bagged. Many of those bagless vacuums that you see in the trash are probably still in working condition. After a year, probably less, most people are sick and tired of dumping the dirt bins daily, weekly etc and all the corresponding negative consequences of dumping the bins. Bagless vacuums have probably done more for promoting bagged vacuums than they have for bagless. In fact quite the opposite for bagless when you add in the expense/maintenance required for bagless filters. Carmine D.
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Venson
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #146 Sep 17, 2009 9:29 am |
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. . . Many of those bagless vacuums that you see in the trash are probably still in working condition. After a year, probably less, most people are sick and tired of dumping the dirt bins daily, weekly etc and all the corresponding negative consequences of dumping the bins.
Carmine D.
Mornin' Carmine, I think that performance drop-off may contribute to the matter as well. Unless the filters on most bagless machines are tended fastidiously -- especially the pleated variety -- "out-of-the-box" performance can quickly fade. That's a cinch for getting a vacuum cleaner off to a dumpster. Venson
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #148 Sep 17, 2009 2:52 pm |
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This is a good article for all who read and post here regularly to read. I've always known this instinctively during my professional career. It's always a joy to have vindication from official surveys. Sort of like predicting the top performing vacuum brand and model by name and then having Consumer Reports, and/or the Carpet and Rug Institute, validate the selection with the very same one. Also, the ostriches here who rant and rave about the vacuum store owners/operators with the same panned rehearsed speeches, all the while tethered to a boss/bosses, may want to rethink their long term career goals. The article and its findings provide a rude awakening to these slavenly ostriches. The vacuum store owners have the last laugh, literally and figuratively. Enjoy. I certainly did. Carmine D. Plumbing for Joy? Be Your Own Boss By economic yardsticks, Roger the Plumber should be feeling pretty low. Roger Peugeot, owner of the 14-employee Overland Park, Kan., plumbing company that bears his name, is part of a sector hit hard by shrunken credit and slumping sales. He has been forced to reduce staff and is battling new competition from other plumbers fleeing the construction industry. Why Roger the Plumber Is Happy Steve Hebert for The Wall Street Journal ’Roger the Plumber’ owns his own business and is excited to go to work every day. So why is Mr. Peugeot so happy? He genuinely likes fixing plumbing messes, for one thing, and despite the worst recession he has seen, "I'm still excited to get up and go to work every day," he says. He relishes running into people at the local hardware store whom he has helped in the past. And in hard times, he says, his fate is in his own hands, rather than those of a manager. "Even when things get tough, I'm still in control," he says. In the broadest, most-comprehensive survey yet of how occupation affects happiness, business owners outrank 10 other occupational groups in overall well-being, based on the landmark survey of 100,826 working adults set for release today. Defined as self-employed store or factory owners, plumbers and so on, business owners surpassed 10 other occupational groups on a composite measure of six criteria of contentment, including emotional and physical health, job satisfaction, healthy behavior, access to basic needs and self-reports of overall life quality. This puts Roger the Plumber well ahead of movers and shakers typically regarded as the top of the heap in society—professionals such as doctors or lawyers, who ranked second, and executives and managers in corporations or government, who came in third—according to the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index, a collaboration between Gallup and Healthways, a Franklin, Tenn., health-management concern. This is despite business owners ranking below those more-prestigious occupations in physical health and access to basic needs, such as health care. The findings, psychologists say, reflect the importance of being free to choose the work you do and how you do it, the way you manage your time, and the way you respond to adversity. Regardless of occupational field, the survey suggests that seeking out enjoyable work and finding a way to do it on your own terms, with some control over both the process and the outcome, is likely for most people to fuel satisfaction and contentment. "Despite the recession, it still pays to be your own boss," says Frank Newport, editor in chief of the Gallup Poll. The survey, adds John Howard, director of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, "reaffirms my view that the more control you have over your work, the happier you are." Smaller studies have shown links between certain kinds of stress and particular job roles or employment groups. But the huge size of the Gallup-Healthways project, which conducts 1,000 telephone surveys a day, makes it possible to draw detailed, reliable distinctions among a large number of occupational groups. "I know of no other survey of this size" on the subject, says Humphrey Taylor, chairman of the Harris Poll, a competitor. The 11 occupational categories surveyed also include farmers and sales, clerical, construction, installation and service workers. Unlikely WinnersBusiness owners may seem unlikely winners. About half of the nation's full-time small businesses typically fail within five years of start-up, and the rate has risen in the recession, says William Dennis, a senior research fellow with the National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation. They are more likely to work extremely long hours than people in any other occupation group, other Gallup research shows. The findings likely reflect declining quality-of-life in some professions, Dr. Howard says. Rising cost controls in medicine, for example, and mounting pressure to chalk up billable hours in law, have curtailed doctors' and lawyers' flexibility to control their work. "Where professionals may have had greater freedom 20 or 30 years ago, many are now experiencing loss of control, erosion of satisfaction and increased stress," Dr. Howard says. At the bottom of the heap, transportation and manufacturing workers scored lowest on well-being. These occupations tend to foster conditions Niosh has identified as contributors to unhealthy stress: lack of control or participation in decision-making, conflicting or unclear job expectations, and hectic tasks with little inherent meaning. Management and executive jobs have gotten tougher, too, during the period the Gallup-Healthways data were gathered, the first eight months of this year. Beset by cost cuts and layoffs, corporate bosses at all levels now share more of these stress-inducing conditions. Business owners stand in stark contrast. Even in tough times, "you do your own thinking and no one can tell you you're wrong," says Edwin Locke, an industrial psychologist and professor emeritus of leadership and motivation at the Robert H. Smith School of Business at the University of Maryland. "You make your own decisions, and if you're wrong, reality gives you the feedback," he says. Measuring Well-BeingIn a study of how occupation affects happiness, business owners came out on top. Occupation | Overall well-being | Business Owner | 72.5 | Professional | 71.5 | Manager/Executive | 70.9 | Farming/Forestry | 67.8 | Sales | 67.6 | Clerical | 66.1 | Construction | 65.0 | Installation | 64.4 | Service | 64.0 | Transportation | 62.6 | Manufacturing | 62.1 |
Source: Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index Note: Scores are based on respondents' answers to six categories of questions about work and life quality. Staying in ControlAs a business owner, Mr. Peugeot says, "even when things are out of your control, as they are with this economy, you're still in control of your relationships" with customers. Corporate managers and executives may "sit and wonder if they're going to be laid off, or get frustrated with the inabilities of management," he says. "If you're the owner, you may have to say, 'I screwed up,' but it's a lot better than saying, 'I didn't deserve that.' " Other patterns among the self-employed help explain their psychological well-being. Entrepreneurs tend by nature to be optimistic, evidenced in their willingness to strike out on their own, psychologists say. Laura Street, of Pleasanton, Calif., isn't making a profit in the handmade-jewelry business, Ampersand Designs, which she co-founded last year. But to her, the glass is half full: She says sales are rising, she expects to turn a profit soon, and she loves her work. "Yes, the economy is bad. But we aren't coming into a workplace wondering, 'Are we going to get fired today?' " she says. "If you control your destiny, the well-being is something that just comes naturally." The freedom business owners have to control their schedules enables them to adhere more closely to their personal priorities, says Amy Neftzger, an organizational psychologist for Healthways. They have the flexibility to "make it to a child's play, or spend time with family," she says. Golfing With the MayorMany also have community ties that feed a sense of well-being. James Barnard, chief financial officer of his family's business, Barnard Manufacturing in St. Johns, Mich., didn't have a great summer. He and his cousin Gary Barnard, president of the heavy-equipment parts maker, stopped drawing paychecks to help the company through a steep sales drop. They agonized over a decision to lay off dozens of workers, and Gary sat nearly alone in the plant for several weeks, answering phones. But their company has a good image in the community, and "it's a big deal to us to keep that going," James says. He takes part in civic groups and enjoys golfing with the mayor and police chief. Pressed to describe the rewards of running a family business, he says, "It's pride. Definitely pride." Another surprise from the survey: Farmers and other outdoor workers, from farmhands to forestry workers, scored No. 1 among all groups in "emotional health," as measured mainly by the amount of smiling, laughter, enjoyment and happiness they report experiencing the previous day—despite the fact that farmers ranked near the bottom in access to basic needs. Steve Swenka, a Tiffin, Iowa, farmer, had just finished mowing two fields of hay when I reached him by phone last week to discuss the poll. The results didn't surprise him. Farm work, he says, is pretty trying. "When you're out there in the heat and the dust, sweating, you may feel miserable," he says. But over time, "you can see the progress, the fruits of your labor. "And when the day is over and you see the loads of hay stacked, there's something fulfilling about hard manual labor like that," he says. "You forget your little troubles, and start to see the bigger picture." —Email sue.shellenbarger@wsj.com
This message was modified Sep 17, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: What makes the vacuum cleaner inustry so important?
Reply #149 Sep 17, 2009 9:51 pm |
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Mornin' Carmine,
I think that performance drop-off may contribute to the matter as well. Unless the filters on most bagless machines are tended fastidiously -- especially the pleated variety -- "out-of-the-box" performance can quickly fade. That's a cinch for getting a vacuum cleaner off to a dumpster.
Venson
Hello Venson:
Ironic you posted this. My neighbor, a woman and writer, is moving. She knocked on the door, and of all things, asked to borrow my vacuum. She does not know I am a retired vacuum industry professional, but I suspect she noted, as other neighbors have, a line up of vacuums in my garage. So the visit. My first question to her was if she was using a vacuum. She said she was but it died. I asked her to get it and meet me at my open garage door with it. She did. It's a EUREKA bagless UNO with the spin duster and turbo tool on board. It looked fairly new and not used very much. She told me it was 3 years old. She purchased from SAM's Club on sale for $99 after a $20 instant cash rebate. She said it was working well but no more. I noticed she dumped the dirt bin. I saw that the foam washable pre-motor filter, which sits atop the bin with a clear see-thru cover, was packed with layer of dirt. This model has a see-thru hose to easily see clogs. Despite the accumulated inner hose dust, which was not making its way into the bin, it was not clogged. I plugged in and tested the hose suction. It was half the normal suction. These vacuums should compress the flexible stretch hose when you cover the tool end. It did not. I tried in the rug mode and noticed that the dirt did not swirl in the bin. I put my hand under the the vacuum to feel the brush roll revolution. It was fine. I couldn't stop it. As a good neighbor, I loaned her my HOOVER TEMPO so she could resume her cleaning. I told her when she returns with the HOOVER TEMPO, I'll have her EUREKA fixed. She looked at me. She said thank you but she was going to throw it out with the next trash pick up rather than take it with her. I said that wasn't necessary. It's repairable, just needs pre-post motor filter cleaning. She said she never did it. From the looks of it, I already knew that was the case. She was happy and took the TEMPO. I fixed the UNO. HEPA post-motor filter, pleated, was okay, but no doubt dirt infiltrated the motor because it was in the HEPA filter well. I repaired. The dirt on the pre-motor filter and filter compartment filled my HOOVER swingette paper bag, which I tossed. The UNO motor is noisey. I suspect the bearings/fan are on their way out. But that's not on my agenda. It has good suction and should go awhile longer before the motor is gone. That is if she doesn't toss. Carmine D.
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