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mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Original Message   Feb 18, 2005 2:23 pm
What is the purpose of sleeving the bore of a new engine with cast iron? The ohv Snow King Tecumsehs still have the sleeve while according to my dealer the Briggs Snow Intek does not.

I am aware of sleeving being used to keep in service engines that have been bored to the point that the cylinder walls are too thin. Again,why on a new engine?

Marc 

SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
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Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #15   Feb 19, 2005 2:59 pm
boblloyd wrote:
I wonder if a cast iron sleeve is any kind of an advantage in a snow motor.    None of my walk-behind mowers had cast iron sleeves and I've never had a cylinder wear problem. They saw many more hours of use per year than a snow blower would - and in much hotter conditions.   I think the main advantage of cast iron is better resistance high temperature. 

One advantage of an aluminum bore is better corrosion resistance - a big plus for a motor that might see just a few hours use in the winter and be idle otherwise.   I doubt an aluminum bore would ever be a factor in the life of a snow motor especially with modern synthetic oils.    -Bob


I would agree with this.
Walt


Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. -T. Roosevelt

Location: Chester County, PA
Joined: Dec 31, 2004
Points: 148

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #16   Feb 19, 2005 3:41 pm
Throwing more iron into the fire...

I don't have any answers to the issue at hand, but I am throwing in information that may have been used in the companies decision.

Aluminum and steel expand and contract at different rates.  Steel expands/contracts less per degree than aluminum does.  If one had an aluminum piston that gets hot, within a steel bore, the seal/ gap between them might become better as the engine is warmed (assuming tolerances would never allow siezing of the piston).  If one had a steel piston inside an aluminum housing, and subjected it to temp extremes, the seal could be great at startup, but get worse as it is goes 

Also, the rings on a piston are usually steel.  As long as there is no foriegn matter in the upper or lower part of the piston, abrasion wouldn't be an issue; but if foriegn matter got stuck near the rings it would tend to scratch the aluminum housing first.

Depending on the process that was used to create the housing, a cast aluminum may have a porous surface, in turn a machined steel liner would assure a good finish inside the bore.  The Aluminum does disipate heat far faster than would a steel housing.

FWIW,

Walt 

This message was modified Feb 19, 2005 by Walt
robmints


Joined: May 13, 2003
Points: 4691

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #17   Feb 19, 2005 3:46 pm
jubol wrote:
 Mark,

The Simp 860 blower has an 8HP Intek, which has an cast iron sleeve.

Go to Small Engine Warehouse and check out their snow engines and read the specs.

                                                              Hope this helps

                                                                          Fred         


Fred,
The only things that are odd are that the information I relayed is from Briggs tech support from a call made late last year, and if you go to the Briggs website Dura-Bore cast iron liner used to be the first thing listed for all the Inteks. Now there is no mention of Dura-bore for the Intek Snow.

Commercial Intek

Residential Intek site
jubol


Location: Dover, De
Joined: Oct 3, 2003
Points: 1558

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #18   Feb 19, 2005 3:59 pm
Rob,

Read above, where I refered Mark to the Engine Warehouse.

At their  site, Intek engines spec sheets refer to a cast iron liner, at least 7.5 HP and up.

                                                      Fred

Husqvarna STE927(11.5HP) snowblower,  MTD Pro Series 18/42 Lawnmower, MTD 6.5 HP  Self Prop Lawn Mower,  Weedeater 1500 Blower, Web Gensis  2000 
millwright


MIllwrights keep the world running

Location: Cape Breton Nova Scotia
Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Points: 188

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #19   Feb 19, 2005 4:28 pm
look  at the price for  a short block cast iron sleeve or alum. bore .Big diff  in price .Heat  is inside from combustion  as far as thermel  exspansion  it travels in all directions . Bottom line cheaper to produce.No cast iron sleeve stay away. Just my opinion. and you no what they say about opinions,there like a xxxxx holes every one has one.

millwright

mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #20   Feb 19, 2005 7:50 pm
Hi Guys!

Fred-I saw the Small Engine deal last night. The problem is that Briggs Tech Support told me  over the phone the only way to be sure is to check the spec # on the engine . He assured me there are two classes of Intek Snow Engines-One aluminum bore and one cast iron bore. For some reason they have decided not to distinguish the difference accept by spec #. Also interesting to find cast iron  bore Intek Snow Engines on the Small Engine Warehouse list rated at 7.5hp.

The only way to tell is chack for the spec# on the block. While the lists at Small engine warehouse refer to the cast iron models as Snow Intek IC engines if  you click on the picture notice it doesen't say anything about IC on the engines. 

This will all resolve itself next week when I can get a look at the engine. 

Marc

This message was modified Feb 19, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
robmints


Joined: May 13, 2003
Points: 4691

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #21   Feb 19, 2005 7:59 pm
jubol wrote:
Rob,

Read above, where I refered Mark to the Engine Warehouse.

At their  site, Intek engines spec sheets refer to a cast iron liner, at least 7.5 HP and up.

                                                      Fred


I saw that Fred. My confusion comes from Briggs changing it's website, and the information that I got from Briggs. I think Marc should get the model numbers and get some good information from that really knows. It's a lot of money, and it doesn't hurt to be sure.

I saw these that you had posted. There are other 7.5 Briggs on that site with an "essd" at the end that don't say cast iron liner.
SEW 7.5 Briggs
jubol


Location: Dover, De
Joined: Oct 3, 2003
Points: 1558

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #22   Feb 20, 2005 4:33 am
  Rob,

        Some 7.5's do and some 7.5's don't, but all the 8 and above that I checked did have cast iron liners.

Like Richie thinks, OPE Engine makers are blowing smoke!!!

        I've been checking into Tec's OHV engine spec's and found the following.

The Tec 8,9, 10 and 11HP OHV engines have all the same specs.

Same displacement, weight, bore and stroke!! So how are they different? Don't know for sure!

So I have come to the conclusion that Tec and Briggs are controlling HP 3  ways on each engine.

                1. Different Carb's  ( different jets) .

                 2. Different cam shafts.

                 3.The length of time the  intake and exhuast  valves are open, and height of valves when open.

Those 3 things would change the amount of fuel in the cylinder, reduce engine breathing ability and maybe compression slightly, thus changing amount of HP produced.

                                                                      IMHO                                            Fred   

This message was modified Feb 20, 2005 by jubol


Husqvarna STE927(11.5HP) snowblower,  MTD Pro Series 18/42 Lawnmower, MTD 6.5 HP  Self Prop Lawn Mower,  Weedeater 1500 Blower, Web Gensis  2000 
Gilsons


Let it snow, in southern Maine

Location: Southern Maine
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Points: 669

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #23   Feb 20, 2005 7:44 am
A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster.
*The steel sleeve will finish and wear better than aluminum but in a vertical piston application (like a snowblower)  wear should be trivial. I have seen horizaontal pistion cylinders (like some lawn tractors and RERs) show pronounced bottom side wear perhaps due to gravity.* With reasonable lube maintenance an aluminum cylinder will go the distatnce on a snowblower.
*Aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat hence the "cool bore" trade name.
* It's all about pricepoint and features.  If the OEM wants the cast iron cylinder as a selling point they spec the engine that way. If they want the lowes unit cost they go  all aluminum. I would not say it's all hype since the cast iron bore is a better engine, just not in a significant way for snowblower applications. At some point due to volume or design the manufacture may only offer one or the other on certain sizes.
* The B&S trype number details the specific feature set of an engine while the model describes the major features. The type leads to the governor spring/setting spec and as beat to death in another thread can put the engine in a different HP rate depending where the RPM setting falls on the torque curve and how the calculate out.  That being said 2 virtually identical engines can be selling with different HP ratings. Also like many specifications the advertised number will be something they can consistently meet/exceed. How much tolerance they hold in reseve can be adjusted for a price, or to win a contract.

Pete

Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #24   Feb 20, 2005 9:24 am
Gilsons wrote:
A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster.


Hi Pete,

I do know enough about cast iron cylinder sleeves Vs. aluminum to say that the answer can get complicated or even become a heated argument.  Keeping it simple, and using snowblowers as an example, what actually are the benefits of both?  When I look at cast iron, it's usually designed for I/C applications.  This enables rebuilding where aluminum blocks may not be worth the expense or not recommended. 

All things being equal, and an engine is never run low on oil, how many snowblower engines actually wear out and require rebuilding if they are not iron sleeve equipped? As for longevity, is it really worth the expense, if any?  If the cast iron sleeve came on a snowblower that had certain features that were very important to me, I wouldn't have a problem getting it, obviosly I wouldn't have a choice anyway.  I'm not sure I myself would put that feature as a must have simply as a homeowner.

Also, due to the severe weather conditions a snowblower is used, do these cast iron cylinder sleeves rust at all sitting for most of the year as opposed to aluminum.  Is it necessary to fog the cylinder at the end of the season?  As for aluminum, it's a porous metal and because of that, it does tarnish therefore it can corrode to some degree too. Aside from simply the rebuild factor, which I believe would rarely be the case for a homeowner, I'm not seeing "must have" benefits getting the iron. 

I'd have to say that if either of these type of engines blew after say, 10-12 years, It wouldn't be unreasonable for the homeowner to just say, "well, time for a new blower" Sorry for all the questions.

 

This message was modified Feb 20, 2005 by Richie


Richie
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