Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

What is the purpose of sleeving the bore of a new engine with cast iron? The ohv Snow King Tecumsehs still have the sleeve while according to my dealer the Briggs Snow Intek does not.

I am aware of sleeving being used to keep in service engines that have been bored to the point that the cylinder walls are too thin. Again,why on a new engine?

Marc 

Marc,

If you get 10 HP or over the briggs has  liner. they have a less expensive engine that does not have the liner.

Hi Mints!

Thanks for the info! The dealer didn't know that. I was looking at the ten horse Simplicity. Not clear on the Briggs web site either. The Simplicity catalog doesen't  make that distinction either.Still would like to know what is the advantage of the cast Iron bore liner.

Marc

CAST IRON SLEEVE WEARS MUCH BETTER AND WILL KEEP THE ENGINE FROM NEEDING TO BE BORED OUT.

hey folks...

i just so happen to be a master tech for briggs so i emailed them about the snow inteks and will have an answer ...around the turn of the centuary (sp) i couldnt find the answer on the dealer website   wouldnt you guys love to know what is on that site .

the cast iron liners wear much longer and are more resistant to overheating than aluminum liners.

there is also a different piston  and the rings are different.

.

will post the answer asap.

later chris

Hi Chris!

I called Briggs after reading Mints' reply. The tech I spoke to said that he needed the spec # off the engine in order to answer. Since I am only shopping and have not as yet bought a machine -no spec #. He suggested I call Simplicity. Might as well try to get Bush to answer your call at the White House!

I was able to see an Intek carb at the dealer and it does have a plastic float. It was not off a Snow engine so no one was sure if the bowl had a drain . The carb as you know is completely enclosed in a plastic shroud so you can't tell without taking it off .

Any information you can find out would be greatly appreciated,

Marc

I think the ones called Powerbilt (or something) are the aluminium engines. Below 10 HP the Intek and powerbilt are pretty much the same. But over 10 HP the inteks have a cast iron bore.

Its my understanding that the same thing happens in other areas such as compressors and for essentially the same reasons:

1. Alumunum is lighter
2. Aluminum is easier to cast and machine;
3. Aluminum disapates heat faster (? I think, not sure)
4. Iron/Steel wears less in a high friction environment.
5. Iron/Steel resists heat deformation better ( less warping)

Therefore most of the housing is aluminum while the heavy wear items such as the cylinders are inserts of the tougher wearing material. Essentially the engineers are trying to optimize the design based on the specific needs of the part. The term "optomize" includes cost to manufacture and material cost as well as performance. That why you don't normally have tungsten liners in retail OPE. Its a balancing act.

Good morning guys!

Last night I went to the "Small Engine Warehouse" web site and checked their stock of horizontal shaft Briggs. They had two Snow Intek Engines with cast iron bores(spec#20D414007&#20D4140019). This information is confirmed by the conversation I had with a Tech at Briggs yesterday . He's the guy who told me that the engines come both aluminum and cast iron bores. He gave me as an example the# 20D4140017 as an example of a cast Iron bore engine. I am going back to the Simplicity dealer this morning to look at the #s on the engine.

This issue of dealers not knowing what is powering the equiptment and what's available is not new to me. Last spring I bought a commercial Toro lawn mower and I had the same issues over the Kawasaki power and what options were available with it and if you could get it in New York etc. The dealers would like to make a sale but the manufacturers don't make the info. available to them. For example I have the new Simplicity catalog and nowhere does it mention word one about cylinder bore construction.Go to their web site and not only is there no phone # to call but in order to send them an Email inquiry you have to give your address and phone # etc.I don' want to give all that info. to ask a question.

Before someone accuses me of being unreasonable in wanting to know about cylinder construction take a look at all of the competitions advertisements. If someone is manufacturing a cast Iron bore engine you don't have to be a detective to find out. 

I called Briggs and they can't tell you what engines are being used on equiptment being manufactured by a company they own!

 .No disrespect intended to "Mints" earlier posts concerning this issue. But when a Briggs factory tech.tells you that the engine comes both aluminum and cast iron you kind of want to nail it down. I think "Mints" is right . Can't imagine Simplicity would use the aluminum cylinder model .

Please excuse my rant but it shouldn't be this hard to buy a Snow Blower,

Marc

 

your absolutley right...

it really tics me off when im selling more of these snow inteks than any other shop in Nova Scotia and i dont even know about the liner or lack there of.

and whats worse im a master teck for them and that is supposed to mean somthing ,and i still dont have a readily available answer.

but i can assure you when i get to the update school ,the factory rep is gonna hear about this web site and what it means to people here.and i can assure you im not happy about the lack of information that is really available to people that are interested in making informed purchasing decisions.

im sorry i didnt know the engines bore construction,i guess i took it for granted it was castiron lined.but you know if it dosent say that, then it probably isnt.

i will keep you all updated,thanks for the patience.

later chris

                                                             
                                                         

Marc,
It is my understanding that both are aluminium engines if less than 9 HP like would be in the 860, that Simplicity would have an aluminium bore.

If however you are looking at a 1060 and it said Intek Snow it should have a cast iron bore. The 960, I have no idea.

I am not positve about any of this, it was what I have been told.                                                       


 

Hi Guys!

Just back from the Simplicity dealer. He is closed on Saturday. Winter hours don't ya know!

Yours in total frustration,

Marc

I wonder if a cast iron sleeve is any kind of an advantage in a snow motor.    None of my walk-behind mowers had cast iron sleeves and I've never had a cylinder wear problem. They saw many more hours of use per year than a snow blower would - and in much hotter conditions.   I think the main advantage of cast iron is better resistance high temperature. 

One advantage of an aluminum bore is better corrosion resistance - a big plus for a motor that might see just a few hours use in the winter and be idle otherwise.   I doubt an aluminum bore would ever be a factor in the life of a snow motor especially with modern synthetic oils.    -Bob

 Mark,

The Simp 860 blower has an 8HP Intek, which has an cast iron sleeve.

Go to Small Engine Warehouse and check out their snow engines and read the specs.

                                                              Hope this helps

                                                                          Fred         

Small engines starting at -40C and getting warmer needs those cast iron  Cylinder Sleeves why?

Because they have aluminium blocks and it's very important that the piston runs in a iron enviromment.

boblloyd wrote:
I would agree with this.

Throwing more iron into the fire...

I don't have any answers to the issue at hand, but I am throwing in information that may have been used in the companies decision.

Aluminum and steel expand and contract at different rates.  Steel expands/contracts less per degree than aluminum does.  If one had an aluminum piston that gets hot, within a steel bore, the seal/ gap between them might become better as the engine is warmed (assuming tolerances would never allow siezing of the piston).  If one had a steel piston inside an aluminum housing, and subjected it to temp extremes, the seal could be great at startup, but get worse as it is goes 

Also, the rings on a piston are usually steel.  As long as there is no foriegn matter in the upper or lower part of the piston, abrasion wouldn't be an issue; but if foriegn matter got stuck near the rings it would tend to scratch the aluminum housing first.

Depending on the process that was used to create the housing, a cast aluminum may have a porous surface, in turn a machined steel liner would assure a good finish inside the bore.  The Aluminum does disipate heat far faster than would a steel housing.

FWIW,

Walt 

jubol wrote:
Fred,
The only things that are odd are that the information I relayed is from Briggs tech support from a call made late last year, and if you go to the Briggs website Dura-Bore cast iron liner used to be the first thing listed for all the Inteks. Now there is no mention of Dura-bore for the Intek Snow.

Commercial Intek

Residential Intek site

Rob,

Read above, where I refered Mark to the Engine Warehouse.

At their  site, Intek engines spec sheets refer to a cast iron liner, at least 7.5 HP and up.

                                                      Fred

look  at the price for  a short block cast iron sleeve or alum. bore .Big diff  in price .Heat  is inside from combustion  as far as thermel  exspansion  it travels in all directions . Bottom line cheaper to produce.No cast iron sleeve stay away. Just my opinion. and you no what they say about opinions,there like a xxxxx holes every one has one.

millwright

Hi Guys!

Fred-I saw the Small Engine deal last night. The problem is that Briggs Tech Support told me  over the phone the only way to be sure is to check the spec # on the engine . He assured me there are two classes of Intek Snow Engines-One aluminum bore and one cast iron bore. For some reason they have decided not to distinguish the difference accept by spec #. Also interesting to find cast iron  bore Intek Snow Engines on the Small Engine Warehouse list rated at 7.5hp.

The only way to tell is chack for the spec# on the block. While the lists at Small engine warehouse refer to the cast iron models as Snow Intek IC engines if  you click on the picture notice it doesen't say anything about IC on the engines. 

This will all resolve itself next week when I can get a look at the engine. 

Marc

jubol wrote:
I saw that Fred. My confusion comes from Briggs changing it's website, and the information that I got from Briggs. I think Marc should get the model numbers and get some good information from that really knows. It's a lot of money, and it doesn't hurt to be sure.

I saw these that you had posted. There are other 7.5 Briggs on that site with an "essd" at the end that don't say cast iron liner.
SEW 7.5 Briggs

  Rob,

        Some 7.5's do and some 7.5's don't, but all the 8 and above that I checked did have cast iron liners.

Like Richie thinks, OPE Engine makers are blowing smoke!!!

        I've been checking into Tec's OHV engine spec's and found the following.

The Tec 8,9, 10 and 11HP OHV engines have all the same specs.

Same displacement, weight, bore and stroke!! So how are they different? Don't know for sure!

So I have come to the conclusion that Tec and Briggs are controlling HP 3  ways on each engine.

                1. Different Carb's  ( different jets) .

                 2. Different cam shafts.

                 3.The length of time the  intake and exhuast  valves are open, and height of valves when open.

Those 3 things would change the amount of fuel in the cylinder, reduce engine breathing ability and maybe compression slightly, thus changing amount of HP produced.

                                                                      IMHO                                            Fred   

A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster.
*The steel sleeve will finish and wear better than aluminum but in a vertical piston application (like a snowblower)  wear should be trivial. I have seen horizaontal pistion cylinders (like some lawn tractors and RERs) show pronounced bottom side wear perhaps due to gravity.* With reasonable lube maintenance an aluminum cylinder will go the distatnce on a snowblower.
*Aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat hence the "cool bore" trade name.
* It's all about pricepoint and features.  If the OEM wants the cast iron cylinder as a selling point they spec the engine that way. If they want the lowes unit cost they go  all aluminum. I would not say it's all hype since the cast iron bore is a better engine, just not in a significant way for snowblower applications. At some point due to volume or design the manufacture may only offer one or the other on certain sizes.
* The B&S trype number details the specific feature set of an engine while the model describes the major features. The type leads to the governor spring/setting spec and as beat to death in another thread can put the engine in a different HP rate depending where the RPM setting falls on the torque curve and how the calculate out.  That being said 2 virtually identical engines can be selling with different HP ratings. Also like many specifications the advertised number will be something they can consistently meet/exceed. How much tolerance they hold in reseve can be adjusted for a price, or to win a contract.

Pete

Gilsons wrote:

Hi Pete,

 

Out of all these walk behind lawn mower engines, the only two that have a cast iron bore are the LSQ Quantum I/C and the Intek Pro.

Now, I know I have personally seen some of these engines, that do not have cast iron sleeves in the bore, run 4-8 hours a week 4-5 months a year in high heat and dirty conditions for years and years with proper maintenance. Granted they won't last as long before starting to smoke as the lined engines will, but I see no reason to believe that a snow engine without a liner is a deal breaker for purchasing by any means. Actually, I would make a bet most will be replacing something else on the snowblower before they would need to have the cylinder bored on their snow engine.

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The Intek Edge motor on my Snapper mower is also I/C.

Richie wrote:
Richie... What's your point, I said the sleeve is a nice feature, not a deal buster. (for a snowblower)

What you mention about the sleeve rusting in the off season is an intersting question. I suspect that the typical lubricationalong with the chrome content would keep things oK for a spell. Many all iron blocks were built for many years.

As for your last point I feel sorry for the folks who bout a snowblower they are prepared to scrap at the 1 decade mark for the sake of an engine.

Pete

Gilsons wrote:
What you mention about the sleeve rusting in the off season is an intersting question.

I know you restore many classic snowblowers.  Since you get them, perhaps not running condition, I was curious if you have ever come across corroded or rusted cylinders for either of the type of engines being discussed. My point was more curiosity, whether you could elaborate beyond "not a deal buster."  Have you seen cylinders with this type of damage whether I/C or aluminum.  Certainly was not trying to get under your skin.

okay so i emailed briggs about this and got the answer...

it is type number sensitive..

12D300 cast iron liner

20D300 cast iron liner

20F400 cast iron liner

20A400 aluminum bore.

i also called technical services while i was on my lunch break,(the stuff i do for my friends).

tech i spoke with said all the intek engines are cast iron liners...i fired him on the spot.

he said only the mowers and tillers had the aluminum bores. still not impressed i advised him to get a bit better information.

he called me back after he called the "factory"and then told me it depends on the type numbers.

i mentioned that it is to hard for a consumer to get this info and that they have to change it in a hurry.

thats all for now.

later chris

Great info Chris. This should not be such a mystery, should it?

Hey Rob,

   That was Snowshoveler with the Info!!

  Are we all getting old??

                           Fred

got ya...

snowshoveler ...thats me and my name is also chris ...not chris s thats another guy here .

he is much taller than me so you wont have any problem telling us apart.

later chris

I think I'm going to have to step over to Marshall's side of the street.  Maybe it really will be the year 2020 before we can actually get the correct information from the manufacturers.   

I think I'm going to start a new thread soon.  I want it to be called, "If you had to design a new OPE engine, what features should it have?"  I don't think that'll fit on a title. 

Richie,

I think OPE should have a high content of Titanium and Nitinol (memory metal = Titanium and Nickel alloy). It would be light weight and extremely strong. If you did wreck it, you could heat the Nitinol and it would reshape itself! (Great stuff).  No more bent augers.  We already know about Titanium and it's weight/strength.

I would also include a Uranium 235 full cell for Nuclear power.  With all of the snow you could cool the blower, supply the water for steam and / or melt the snow with the Uranium; as well as blow in your boxers because it would be very warm.  1 pellet from a Nuclear Power plant is equivalent to 1 ton of fossil fuel, hence clean as anything!  Greenpeace, eat your heart out. ( 1 cell could last quite some time). 

I would also make the power system swap with all my other OPE products.  Because of the light weight it would be easy to transfer from mower to blower etc.

I wouldn't need a headlight either  Green illumination included!!!

"Where's your thread"

Walt

Walt wrote:

Walt,

I love it!  Yes, the memory metal is very cool, I've seen it demonstrated.  I got a kick out of the "green illumination lighting."  When I start the thread, I'll be sure to move this post over to it.   

snowshoveler wrote:

LOL.....I doubt that Chris......

C

jubol wrote:
Fred,
I'm young, smart, good looking, have a winning smile, good sense of humor, and rich.

Oops, wrong forum.

Chris who?

Thanks Richie,

I'm always willing to start a conversation.  (My wife just wonders if I know how to stop one!)

Walt