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allenm


Joined: Dec 29, 2010
Points: 8

Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Original Message   Jan 19, 2011 2:07 pm
Toro will have a recall this summer (2011) for Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589).  The following problem affects models made in 2009, 2010, and 2011.  Toro has learned that Ethanol (used in all gas), is deteriorating aluminum parts within the carburetor.  These deteriorating parts break off inside the carburetor creating small fragments then clog areas inside the machine (ie. fuel line).  Gas will leak out of the snow blower into (ie. your garage).  The end result (gas leak) is similar to what happened on the Toro 180 power clear, but the problem is NOT the same.  Toro is aware of the problem and said they are working on a fix to be released this summer (2011) on the Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589) snow blowers. 
 
If anyone is having a gas leak now, the current fix is only temporary.
This message was modified Jan 19, 2011 by allenm
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Steve_Cebu


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #21   Jan 24, 2011 11:26 pm
fleetfoot wrote:
Just to correct this misconception.  Ethanol contains about two thirds the energy of gasoline.  So gasoline with 10% ethanol has about 97% the energy of straight gasoline and gasoline with 15% ethanol has about 95% the energy of straight gasoline.  You can therefore expect about a 3% drop in fuel mileage with gasoline with 10% ethanol and about a 5% drop in fuel mileage with 15% ethanol.


I average 5mpg less with 10% ethanol and that's a fact. I keep meticulous records of my mileage for all my cars.

"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England."  "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
fleetfoot


Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Points: 19

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #22   Jan 25, 2011 12:23 am
Steve_Cebu wrote:
I average 5mpg less with 10% ethanol and that's a fact. I keep meticulous records of my mileage for all my cars.


I am not disputing your records. Assuming that you average 30 mpg, only 1 mpg of your loss can be attributed to the 10% ethanol unless you average 166 mpg. Something other than ethanol is contributing to the other 4 mpg loss you are seeing.
Steve_Cebu


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #23   Jan 25, 2011 1:35 am
fleetfoot wrote:
I am not disputing your records. Assuming that you average 30 mpg, only 1 mpg of your loss can be attributed to the 10% ethanol unless you average 166 mpg. Something other than ethanol is contributing to the other 4 mpg loss you are seeing.

Well from where I sit it's the ethanol. I pay for 100% gas and that's what I want in my car.

This message was modified Jan 25, 2011 by Steve_Cebu


"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England."  "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
longboat


Joined: Feb 11, 2009
Points: 103

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #24   Jan 25, 2011 8:56 am
fleetfoot wrote:
I am not disputing your records. Assuming that you average 30 mpg, only 1 mpg of your loss can be attributed to the 10% ethanol unless you average 166 mpg. Something other than ethanol is contributing to the other 4 mpg loss you are seeing.


Maybe your numbers are true for a pure fresh ethanol blend, but most of this ethanol is getting old by the time it gets into most end-user gas tanks and has probably absorbed plenty of water by then - wonder what kind of energy/mpg we're talking about with water-saturated ethanol?  Anyway, energy potential is small potatoes compared to all the other big problems attributable to ethanol, like environmental degradation and significant loss of wildlife habitat (especially for upland-nesting gamebirds and ducks).
fleetfoot


Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Points: 19

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #25   Jan 25, 2011 10:52 am
longboat wrote:
 most of this ethanol is getting old by the time it gets into most end-user gas tanks and has probably absorbed plenty of water by then - wonder what kind of energy/mpg we're talking about with water-saturated ethanol?  Anyway, energy potential is small potatoes compared to all the other big problems attributable to ethanol, like environmental degradation and significant loss of wildlife habitat (especially for upland-nesting gamebirds and ducks).

Where are the facts to support either of your statements?

I never said that ethanol was good or bad.  I just questioned Steve's statement about 15% ethanol gasoline resulting in a 15% reduction in fuel economy.
alty


Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Points: 38

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #26   Jan 25, 2011 7:05 pm
MN Runner  -  "  So is there a recall or not?  Is this just a hoax? "

....wondering the same thing

longboat


Joined: Feb 11, 2009
Points: 103

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #27   Jan 26, 2011 8:58 am
fleetfoot wrote:
Where are the facts to support either of your statements?

I never said that ethanol was good or bad.  I just questioned Steve's statement about 15% ethanol gasoline resulting in a 15% reduction in fuel economy.

Where are the facts to dispute my statements?  There's more than plenty of anecdotal evidence that 10% ethanol gasoline is absorbing water before it gets into the end-user's gas tank - never heard of water in the gasoline helping to get better mileage, and I'm sure many physicists would agree.  Maybe water injected AFTER the fact if you have a high-compression engine with variable timing that is designed to take advantage of water injection to reduce engine knock at high-compression ratios, but I don't know of any commercial engines that are specifically designed to do that, and the principle doesn't even work the same for water that is already IN the gasoline.  There's only one good way to burn water when it comes to IC engines.

It may not be as big of an issue in populated areas where filling stations go through fuel pretty fast with high turnover, but problems are pretty rampant at remote filling stations where the fuel may sit a few weeks or even months. 

As for facts to support wildlife habitat degradation?  If you don't believe me, ask any Wildlife Sciences professor at any university in the midwest or Great Plains, or any Wildlife Manager in those areas.  Or if you're like me and you have lived in this country all your life, you can see how much ground has been broken in the last ten years so farmers can take advantage of high grain prices - land that is highly-erodible, and land that has been in CRP since that program started in the 80's.  We're talking wetlands and uplands and steep hillsides - it's ridiculous.  Let the Wildlife Manager (or Ducks Unlimited) tell you about how loss of CRP results in fragmented habitat that has a compounding effect on contributing to game bird loss and lack of recruitment.   I could go on and on, but we've gotten pretty far off-topic already...

aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #28   Jan 31, 2011 10:25 am
Well, it's happening to my two month old 421QE. Smelled gasoline in the garage this morning. Walked over to the Toro and found a small puddle of gas right below the carb bowl, gasoline was on the two crews on the bottom. Siphoned the tank will drain the carb bowl. Couldn't come at a better time since there's a big storm coming. At least I got another backup snowblower.
borat


Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #29   Jan 31, 2011 10:59 am
aa335 wrote:
Well, it's happening to my two month old 421QE. Smelled gasoline in the garage this morning. Walked over to the Toro and found a small puddle of gas right below the carb bowl, gasoline was on the two crews on the bottom. Siphoned the tank will drain the carb bowl. Couldn't come at a better time since there's a big storm coming. At least I got another backup snowblower.

These new Toro's are a piece of cake to work on.  Just lift the top off of it and trace the fuel leak.   When you find it, fix it.  I wouldn't be concerned about warranty either.  It's not like you're tearing the engine down and there's a very good chance you'll do a better job than the dealership. 
aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: Recall: Toro 421Q & 421QE (38588/38589)
Reply #30   Jan 31, 2011 1:16 pm
Yes, the 421Q is relatively simple machine.  The engine is larger than the two stroke on 221Q, but everything else is the same.  It is surprising to see how small that 2 stroke engine is.  Even though the snowblower is big, most of it is empty space.

I took the carb bowl off and removed the float and the needle valve.  Looks like some the needle plating has comes off and possibly preventing the needle from seating properly to shut off the fuel.  Cleaned as much as I can to get all the specks out, put everything back and refill the gasoline.  Start it back up.  Everything seems to be running fine, no leaks afterwards.  I only have a small amount of fuel in the tank but will keeping an eye to see if the leak occurs again.  We're expecting some good amount of snow the next two days so I want it to be at least operational. 

While I was poking around in there, I found the governor mechanism.  I can rig up a throttle control slider or similar to a soft spring and pull that governor arm to increase the RPM.  I will be a parallel spring to the existing one.  Basically increasing the spring rate.  Relatively simple,  the only thing is to find place to mount the cable/spring.  Probably will take on this mod at the end of winter season.
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