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Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Original Message   Jan 24, 2005 3:47 pm
Recently I installed a tach/hour meter on my Toro 828 LXE and found theat the maximum operating governed engine speed was 3,300 RPM spiking to 3,330 RPM's.  I actually felt it was running a bit slowly but decided to use it, as is,  immediately after it stopped snowing on Sunday.  Well, we had about a foot of snow on the driveway with some 18" drifts, and the EOD was about 21", thanks to the snow plows.  The machine handled it perfectly until I got to the  EOD.  While blowing through it, the Tecumseh engine wanted to stall.  Nobody can tell me this is normal on a high end snowblower like this.  It was 15 degrees and it was freshly plowed loose snow.  If it had been wet, I would have been able to look past it.

With all the research I've done in the last 24 hours, I am nearly convinced that the governed RPM set by the manufacurer may have much to do with the horse power rating they give them.  The Tecumseh 9hp-11hp Snowking engines all vary greatly in governed RPM, as low as 3,350 up to 3,700 on the 11hp OHV version.  When I see that the Tecumseh 9hp is 318cc's and the 11hp is also 318cc's, where are they getting these horse power ratings from. Making an engine OHV gives you that much more power?

Well, I wasn't able to find the governed operating RPM for my Tec 8hp L-head engine, and given the wide margin of RPM's on their engines, I decided to raise the operating speed of mine to what I felt it should be.  Initially I raised it to 3,600 as it was suggested to me to do, but I felt this was too fast by the way it sounded.  So I then reduced it to 3,400 spiking to 3,430.  Roughly 80-100 RPM's higher than what it was. 

The result of this, I took it out into the street to the 28" high, five foot across snow drifts left on the side of the street from the snowplows.  These drifts are 8" higher than my auger housing.  The sun was out and the snow was nice and moist, perfect for making snowballs.  I raised the throttle to operating RPM, put it in 1st gear and off I sent it into the drift.  The chute started to toss the snow some 40 feet across the road and you could now hear the engine under a load.  The difference this time is that the engine was maintained speed and not a hint of it wanting to stall.  In fact, the tires actually broke loose and I started pushing it into the drift to the point it began tunneling.  The entire time the engine didn't faulter for a second and I actually felt I had a 10 hp engine on this great machine.

What a difference a very small increase in governed engine RPM makes.  At one point on Sunday I was upset with myself for not shelling out the extra money for Toro's top of the line 11 hp OHV version for over $1,600.00.  Well, after how this experiment worked out, now I feel I just saved myself over $400.00 because this snowblower can go through anything now.

Richie
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Emmo


Joined: May 22, 2003
Points: 1065

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #12   Jan 24, 2005 6:20 pm
Certainly part of the difference is pure displacement. 

The 11hp L-head has a 3.312X2.532 Bore & stroke  (358 cc)

The 11hp OHV has a  3.125X2.532 B & S  (318 cc)



YET both of the 9 hp motors have the same 318 cc displacement.

I'm sure it's a combo of displacement, heads, rpms and probably carbs.

Maybe lint or Marty or whoever has seen the guts of a bunch of these could enlighten us.
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #13   Jan 24, 2005 6:26 pm
Hi again Marshall,

I'm sure you are correct but Tecumseh engines models are confusing me.  For example, Nibbler asked for a part number or serial number.  I just came from the garage and found the model number stamped on my engine.  It is, LH318SA.  There is also a
"Spec" number, 156563G.  Here's the confusing part, the link Emmo was kind enough to dig out for me shows ALL 9hp models, yet Toro says this is a 8hp engine.  So I have a DE-rated 9hp??  Is Toro calling a 9hp an 8hp for EPA reasons???  Also, speaking about Emmo's link, you'll also notice that the two engines with charging systems have a much higher governed operating RPM than one without lighting or an alternator.  If I go by those, now that I confirmed my engine model number, I set my governed engine speed lower than what it should be.  In fact, that link may actually prove it certainly was way too low.  What do you think? Thank you all for the assistance you are giving me.

Richie
Dave___in___CT


Deliberate often...
...decide once...


Location: West-Central Connecticut
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Points: 3159

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #14   Jan 24, 2005 6:28 pm
Time for someone to get inside information from the manufacturer...

An inside informant !  


Dave...

Whether you think you can or you can't... you're right.
Henry Ford

   BCS Tractor & snowblower

mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #15   Jan 24, 2005 6:44 pm
How about it T-Man? Inquiring minds want to know!

Marc

Just reviewed Emmos' chart and found three different crankshaft service #'s. I assume this could account for differences in HP for engines of the same displacement. . This could mean the weight of the rotating mass in the engines are different and could also effect HP.

Marc

This message was modified Jan 24, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
robmints


Joined: May 13, 2003
Points: 4691

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #16   Jan 24, 2005 7:31 pm
Richie wrote:
Hi Nibbler,

Thanks for the concerns, I appreciate it.  I really hope that members of this forum won't start playing with their governors as I have.  It was not my intention to rally everyone to touch factory set components, not to mention warranty issues. 


Yes Ritchie, You are right. No messing with stuff we shouldn't.

But where exactly is that screw? I don't need to adjust it much. Just until it throws further than Ross's machine. You know the guy across the street with the Porcshe.


Do you think a Tec L head can hold 15 pounds of boost?

Or how about just a little taste of nitrous when it's nice and sunny on the weekend and everyone is outside brushing off the cars?
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #17   Jan 24, 2005 8:09 pm
Hey Rob,

Now you're talking I have no problem helping you break a rich guys chops  Remember, I felt my Toro was running slower than it should and I also have the tach/hour meter installed as a guide.  But, if you must experiment; just inside where the red throttle lever is, about a 1/4"-1/2" inside that slot the lever rides in, you'll see a very little silver allen head screw.  I turned it about one turn clockwise or less.  One important thing, you have to have a very good flashlight pointed in there when doing this.  Even with the light, its actually hard to tell it is even turning.  Keep your eyes sharp while doing it.  I'd hate to have you come back on the board and tell us you made the adjustment and the engine turned at 4,000 RPM's   I also did this while it was running at max RPM so I could hear what was going on in addition to cheching the RPM meter.

Richie
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #18   Jan 24, 2005 10:48 pm
"Here's the confusing part, the link Emmo was kind enough to dig out for me shows ALL 9hp models, yet Toro says this is a 8hp engine.  So I have a DE-rated 9hp??  Is Toro calling a 9hp an 8hp for EPA reasons??? "

Richie,

I know what you're saying and geeze, it's a nightmere to try have the answers! Want to see a big offender? Look at Sears Lawnmowers that run a 7HP Briggs, explain that one one to me. Rob hit on the reason for it, it's marketing and being the most powerful kid on the block. 

But you know, as long as the snow blows far enough and the grass gets cut nicely without tremendous bog downs when doing either, what the heck do I care what they label it as long as I didn't over pay for something I didn't get?
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #19   Jan 24, 2005 11:56 pm
Marshall,

I just realized that exact thing just before going to bed, exactly what you posted.  What made me realize this was because we were trying to find engine specifications for a Tecumseh 8hp l-head engine, but couldn't.   Why can't any of us find it, because it doesn't exist.  A Toro 828 LXE is actually a 9hp L-head, the model engine number proved it.  So anyone that has purchase this snowblower, you can feel a bit happier you have a larger engine that you didn't even know you received, but due to an industry wide marketing ploy, you paid for it somewhere along the line.  As you pointed out, Marshall, this is obviously an industry wide thing and certainly some type of marketing ploy is at the bottom of it.  I hope I'm not jumping the gun here, but it seems that because I felt my engine was running a bit slower at operating RPM, this ordeal seems to have uncovered one of this industries dirty little secrets, I think.  I also fully agree with you, as long as the machine does what is expected, I have no problem with it.  Lets see what tomorrow brings.  Thanks again, Marshall.   

Richie
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #20   Jan 25, 2005 11:01 am
Hi folks,

This is straight from the Tecumseh engine company.  I only spoke to them about L-head engines, since that is what concerns me with my Toro 828 LXE.  After getting transferred 6 times, I finally spoke with a very knowledgeable tech.  Horsepower is made strictly by carburetion.  The jetting of the engine does it all.  According to him, if you have an 8 hp engine and want it to make it into a 10hp, find out what jetting they use in the 10hp and make the switch.  He insisted it's all in the jetting, jetting is everything.  He did continue and say a dealer may not want to do it for you because you're messing with emissions.  Also, Toro derated this HMSK90 saying it's an 8hp. 

As for my initial suspicions about my governed no-load engine speed of 3,300 as I received my snowblower, he says it was set about the middle of the road on mine.  Generally, at the factory, they can be set as low as 3,150 RPM's or as high as 3,450 RPMs.  At the higher setting of 3,450, which is well within spec, you would see a marked performance increase.  This is why some machines of the same make and model can perform differently.  Using my tuning ear, I set mine to 3,400 RPM's, so at least my ear is still pretty good.  But finally I have the information I was looking for.



Richie
Dave___in___CT


Deliberate often...
...decide once...


Location: West-Central Connecticut
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Points: 3159

Re: Tecumseh Engine Horse Power Rating Discovery
Reply #21   Jan 25, 2005 11:05 am
Excellent Richie... !


Glad you got some definitive answers...

...and thanks for shring 'em here...


Dave...

Whether you think you can or you can't... you're right.
Henry Ford

   BCS Tractor & snowblower

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