Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Apparently, my local Toro dealer says that this year's 421Q model comes with a B&S 4-stroke engine.  He said that this engine is more powerful than the 2-stroke R-tek engine that is in the 221Q. 

He started the 421Q 4 stroke engine.  It sounded fairly quiet and was relatively vibration free smooth running.  Definitely quieter and smoother than the Honda GX160 engine.  I was impressed.  Good job B&S.

He didn't start the 221Q 2 stroke engine.  Stated that it had no gas in tank.  Either that could be true or he didn't want to stink up the showroom with exhaust fumes.

Has anyone used both engines on the Toro 221Q and 421Q and can provide honest report?  Which engine is more powerful and can do the job of moving heavy snow better?

I know there are folks here are dyed in the wool 2-stroke fans, you know who you are.  Barring the 4 stroke heavier weight, complexity, and hassle of oil change, none of these draw backs are really a concern to me, I can go either way.  No big deal to change oil or mix oil in gasoline.  The 421Q felt slightly heavier in the front, but not enough to make a difference.  I won't be lifting either snowblower up and down the bed of a pickup truck so weight difference of 10 lbs isn't an issue. 

Will the 221 or 421 take a plowed driveway down to bare tar or is it going to leave a lot behind? Also how good is it at handling EOD? I know it's a single stage but I'm looking at havingthedriveway plowed then using a smaller machine to clean up. But the EOD will still get filled in because the city plows keep coming long after the guy plows our driveway. Any thoughts? Oh and I'm not real keen on 2 strokes but yeah I guess I could mix up gas for my wife beforehand.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
Yes, both of the Toro will clean the pavement well, same rubber paddle design, different engines.  It's like a power squeegee.  Although if the snow is packed and driven over by tire tracks, it will not come off easily.  I use an metal ice scraper for this.  EOD is possible, the soft wet stuff does take time though.  My neighbor has the 221.  It performs great and he also know how to use it well.  He also clean around the mailbox so that the mail truck doesn't get stuck.  It's a little slow handling that wet heavy snow, but it can do it fine.  I did see it clogged with heavy wet snow once time, a little surprising, but  all the other times, it has worked fine.

Although for the EOD pile that is higher than the opening of the single stage, or when it is hard and crusty, I would use a 2 stage to tackle that.  The metal auger and the wheel drive does most of the work.  You can use a single stage, but it will take longer and require more work on the operator.

2 stroke are not really an issue, mix up a gallon or two of gasoline and that should last a while.  Just use a separate gas can and label it for the 2 stroke.

I don't recommend the electric Toro 1800 though.  Seem too lightweight to get anything done.  The molded plastic auger will not wipe the pavement as well as rubber paddle.  It may not make contact with the pavement at all.

I also don't like to deal with stiff frozen electrical cords and dragging that sludge/slush muddy salt back in the garage.  If you must go with something this small, consider the Power Clear 180.  It's a small 4 stroke snowblower for just a little more money than the 1800 + outdoor extension cord.  It is pretty low to the ground so your wife may be able to pullstart it.  Give it a go.

aa335 wrote:
Well, I saw a Toro Snow Commander and this thing is well built, very heavy.

I wonder how well these things perform compared to a compact 24" two stage machines.

Maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't it be easier to scrape residual snow off the driveway with a wide snow shovel or ice rink shovel? I'm having trouble understanding how a single stage snow thrower would be easier to use to clean up what the two stage left behind. After all, there's just a skim of snow left behind which I find very easy to shove to the side with a rink shovel.

We have decided to buy the Toro 1028 *again*. The dealer we wanted to buy from same guy as the first time but he couldn't deliver it until after the holidays, we are getting a storm this weekend so we bought from another place. My wife was also concerned that they might still be mad at us for returning the first one. We will buy a couple of shovels for the slush. I tried the Toro 180 in the showroom pushing it back and forth. No idea how it blows snow but with no real self propulsion it seems like pushing a 50+ lb. shovel. They didn't have the bigger 221 or 421 and they don't ever use the 221/421 numbers they have dealer #'s.t They want $400 for the 180 and that seems a bit steep, and they can't get any 221/421's. I saw a push shovel online that angles left or right. That seems like it would be good enough to clear away slush by pushing it into a row and then blowing it with the 2 stage once it's 3-4 inches high. Toro single stages look like they would be awesome for walkways and decks.

I think Steve mentioned that his plow guy left snow on the pavement.

My 2 stage scraper bar is set at 1/4" and doesn't leave too much behind.   This works well as it doesn't catch on the gaps between concrete.

With some sunshine, this thin layer of snow usually melts during the day.

Although I usually followup with a single stage if it is later during the day when the snow is soggy and I'm expecting refreezing during the night.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
I hope that the Toro 1028 work out for your wife.  Funny that your dealer doesn't use the 221/421 numbers.  It's on the snowblower.  This is easier for the consumer than the their 5 digit product code.

The Toro 180 is $369 and $399 for the recoil and electric start.  I think it's reasonable compared to the $619/$719 for the 221/421.  The Toro 180 will pull itself forward when the spinning auger makes contact with the pavement or snow.

If they don't have anymore 221/421 and can consider a Toro 2450 at $499, basically a 221 without the Quickshoot and Pivoting Scraper Bar features.  I kind of like this model since it looks just about right.  The 221/421 looks a little bloated.  :)  I know, it's a snowblower!

superbuick wrote:
An excellent review, however some clarification is in order. Yes, compression and displacement affects torque, but not that much in this size range. Comparison is not possible with these two figures alone.

Much more significant is the engine's stroke (period that power is applied to the crankshaft) and the rotating mass of the power train (crankshaft, flywheel, etc). This applies equally to 2 or 4-strokes. A longer stroke, all else being equal, will always produce more torque than a shorter stroke. The fact that a 2-stroke has one power stroke per revolution does not translate into more torque, since the power PERIOD is shorter. A 2-stroke must rev higher to compensate, and this tends to bias the power band toward the high end. Not a problem with something like a chain saw, but a snowblower is often pushed to the limit. The combination of longer stroke (2-strokes are more limited in stroke length) and heavier powertrain is what gives the 4-stroke it's torque advantage. It's a trade-off, for sure. Added weight and more moving parts come with the package.

That said, I like 2-stroke engines just fine. Have several two-bangers in my garage, and love them all. Retired a Toro CCR3000 awhile back, and would still be using it if not for worn-out main bearings (common with high-revving engines). To be fair, I thrashed the little Toro way beyond it's limitations, and it still held together for better than 10 years. Quality is the watchword when comparing engines - not displacement, horsepower, or torque. All these figures can be manipulated by the manufacturer in their favor. A quality 2-stroke engine will beat a chintzy 4-stroke every time - and visa-versa.

Like it or not, the great white fathers seem intent on banishing 2-stroke engines from the kingdom. As more 4-stroke snowblowers, snowmobiles, and leaf blowers come to market, the discussion is likely to shift from 2-stroke vs 4-stroke to who produces the best 4-stroke for an intended purpose. There are some awfully sweet small 4-strokes available right now, and that's encouraging.

In that light, I'd like to add that I've used a Toro 421QE for two seasons now, and it seems to outperform my older (higher HP) Toro 2-stroke unit. I have one of the first generation PowerClears, so I'm stuck with the primative Tecumseh L-head engine. Noisy, smelly, rattles and vibrates like a washing machine - not at all what I expect from Toro.  But, it gets the job done and hardly ever stalls. I'm very much interested in hearing how much better (if any) the new engine performs. Also like the idea of the new pivoting scraper - sounds real good in theory. With a quality engine installed, this paddle blower would rank at the top. As it is, it's still pretty darn close.

Now, if only Toro could only do something about the price...

In the end, your decision should be based upon real-world data, and not advertising hype. Nothing wrong with preferring a 2-stroke engine over a 4-stroke, as long as it does the job you want it to do. Both types have strong and weak points. For cold-weather operations, I like the 4-banger. For day-in, day-out thrashing in the heat, a solid 2-stroke is hard to beat. Your mileage may vary, which is why boards like this are invaluable.

One more observation: I don't think the push for 4-stroke engines is completely due to marketing wonks. They didn't CREATE a market, but seem to be testing the waters prior to the day when that's the only option. Who knows when that day will arrive? When it does, though, doesn't it make sense to have your product in the pipeline ready to go? If GM, Ford, and Chrysler had figured this out in 1975, they wouldn't be where they are today. Just my 2-cents.

The motors in the 421 and the 221, however, rotate at the same RPM (3600 rpms give or take). And in these small applications, the difference in stroke is just as significant/insignificant as the compression and displacement. The info you present for 2 strokes revving higher to compensate for stroke limitations is not a universal dynamic. Look at the ultra low-revving 2 strokes in HUGE oil tankers, or trains, for example, where torque is the only thing that matters. I've run both blowers back to back (your version of the 421 with the tecumseh) and the 221 is simply more powerful. Its not an insult to the 421 or a superiority statement for all 2 strokes, but in this case, the R*Tek is better suited for the task at hand. Not massively so, but enough to be noticeable. For a great illustration of 2 stroke torque, check out some videos of lawn-boy mowers in heavy, heavy grass. They just burble right along at 3600rpm without a care in the world :-) Your 421 is an awesome snowblower, however, either way, and its design (shared with the 221) is the current "top of the heap" for single stage blowers. Also, I think this is a great and interesting discussion that we're having, and I hope others can learn from it as they read it :)

This thread is getting interesting.  The Toro 221/421 chassis is a good design with either engines.  I'm still on the fence about which one to get, so if this discussion goes on further, it will provide me and others with an informed decision.

My neighbor has a 221 and in heavy snow, I can hear the RPM drop quickly under load.  However, if he eases up on the snow load, the RPM spins quickly back up.  I noticed that the distance and the amount of snow diminishes quickly as the RPM drops.  To me, while the 221 2-stroke has power to propel snow at pretty good distance, it seems not to have as much torque. 

In comparison, I have a 10 year old Honda HS621 with a 4 stroke GX160 engine.  While this snowblower doesn't throw as far as the Toro with medium to light snow, when pushed into the heavy snow, the torque seems to be there.  I can hear the engine tone loading up but heavy snow is still coming out at a good speed and volume.  So while the Toro 221 excel at medium to light snow, the Honda HS621 hunkers down better at heavy snow.  Now I am comparing two different chassis and auger design so take it with a grain of salt.

Superbuick has mentioned that he had used both the 221 and 421.  His observation is that the 2 stroke on the 221 was more powerful.  However, I have read from another person's observation that own both models and he observed quite the opposite, the 4-stroke 421 threw snow a little bit farther and does better in wet snow.  So far, these two are the only two head to head comparisons.

Now my question to Superbuick is this.  I actually like the Toro 2450 the best.  It has a slim athletic look to it.  (a la BMW E46)  The 2450 chassis is perfect for the Rtek engine, not oversized to accomodate a 4 stroke engine.  The 221/421(BMW E90) is fat in comparison.  In fact, it is fatter than my HS621.  Since you have both, any chance you can tell me if there's enough room underneath the plastic cover to transplant the 221 chute onto the 2450?    If you have pictures of the Quick Chute mechanism under the cover, I'd appreciate if you post them.  I also follow your posts in the "other" forum.  Good information and awesome pictures.  Love those Lawnboys.