Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

As a sales rep for a distributor who sells Simplicity and Snapper I have forwarded this thread to our technical guy with the suggestion he contact Simplicity for an explanation. Will keep you posted.

Pat

I'm hoping that if I can get enough dealer support that we can find out the whole deal.

Sherri

TomP wrote:

Hi Tom.  I am goin to try an answer your question from an automotive perspective.  Lot of people think if they  know the auto engine They can cover almost everything with small engine things.. That not true, cause small engine repair has a lot of area's in it's own .  where they use a  principal sometimes to a real higher and complicated level.  An example is Piston rings.  They use 3, and 2 and 1. for diff reasons.  So with that disclaimer I will try a general answer,  as the experts may be busy on you.

First lets seperate the 2 cycle from the 4 cycle engine, not good to combine them sometimes when reffering to even something similar, as the differences could come into play and confuse things.

The 2 cycle your toro's  when they say two additional ports, they don't mean in the piston, the ports are in the cylinder(probably), so two extra ports could be explained like having two valves in a auto engine or a 4 valves per cylinder engine,   except a two cycle has no valves it uses ports.  Why the piston would be different, I am not sure,  maybe it may have some recesses or cut's in the top of it to better allow for a 4 port application,  or maybe it is domed to creat higher compression.  not sure that maybe the only difference they may be indicating to you is just the ports in or thru the cylinder wall. so to answer why the piston is different there I don't know,  unless It is actually  just larger than the 6.5

The simplicity engine you are referring to I am assuming is like a 10 HP 4 cycle engine.

The standard and two level oversize piston would be probably when someone has to rebore a cylinder due to wear damage etc 

Another reason they carry them is for their own use at the factory.  WHEN THEY MACHINE THESE PISTONS THEY TURN THEM ON A LATHE,  SAY THE OPERATOR IS RUNNING 200 OF THEM,  THEY MAY HAVE HIM TURN 50 OF THEM DOWN LESS (sry for the caps)  When they machine these pistons they really don't mind too much leaving some them oversize, cause in a pinch they can grab them and recut them if they need them due to a sudden production line shortage. and also sell them for redicuously prices to people doing repairs.   And the other reason, most important 

is if they screw up their cylinders, get out of aligh due to the cylinder getting crimped when being pressed into the cylinder, or bored too much on an angle or a concentricity problem,  they may  remachine the cylinder walls  to save/salvage them, then they may  use the oversize piston ,  Yes I know then your displacement will be higher etc.  that is why you measure your piston and check for a stamping on parts,  etc etc .. They can and do sometimes do it.  And they can definately sell these engines commercially to say like your county government  ..  They buy  50 mowers to cut the parks,  they state in their big they will use some factory rework machines, however will give them all a little longer commercial warranty to make up for it.  No problem they are probably just as good as the one who didn't have the rework

 Miss SS,

         Would be nice to know on the Tec L heads, as they might be doing the same as Briggs.one engine, same specs, but different Hp'S

                                                                                         Fred 

Guys:

Appreciate all the info and better understand the situation. 

I still doubt I have received a 12 hp engine for the price of a 10 but if it is true that is great.  Hopefully we will get some feedback from the manufacturers. 

As a dealer, I would be hot if I were to find out that my dealings with my manufacturers I am buying equipment from to sell to my customers are in fact being sold to me with false information.

I can't help but think that there is something being missed in all of this. I am not saying that what you guys have found is not correct. But, for this to be true, think of what would would also have to be true.......

1. No one has ever caught them before.
2. Dealers have no idea that this is the case.
3. Tech's have no idea this is the case.
4. Resellers of engines would all have to go along with this.
5. Engine manufacturers would be risking fraud out the wazoo.


and more, but you get my drift.

As for the first point, this is the only one that I can possibly see happening, they have to get caught sometime, maybe now is it?

Point #2, we have dealers on this forum, they don't know this to be the case. If it turns out this is true, I am completely amazed the dealers don't know about it.

Point #3, same thing. Tech's order these parts daily, you would think they would know by the engine numbers that they are ordering the exact same parts all of the time for different engines. It would be readily apparent, one would think.

Point #4, all of the resellers like TEW, Jacks, etc. would have to be in this too. They order these engines and sell them by the hundred and thousands. You think they would go along with selling fraudulent practices, all of them?

Point #5, self explanatory.

Some may say, well this is no problem as long as the buyer receives more power than he is buying. The problem is, I may have wanted that better, bigger frame design, mower deck, auger width, etc. but, I declined to buy it because I just didn't think I needed to be buying a 12HP engine for my needs. And, it's possible that I as a consumer figured the majority of the extra cost for that blower or mower, was the bigger engine.

Maybe all of this is true, it very well could be? But, there would need to be a ton of fools involved and or people that don't care about these business practices.

Oh yea, do all of the engine manufacturers do this? You know they constantly buy each others engines and tear them down to keep abreast of what the competition is doing. So, it would almost have to be a conspiracy between them all because you know for fact one of them would be blowing the legal and ethical whistle on the other.

Do I see this wrong? Maybe I am completely off base?

Hi Guys-

I just lost the longest post I ever typed !

I regret starting this whole thing because words like fraud turn everything nasty. We may not like it but all of the literature the manufacturers produce are filled with disclaimers written by lawyers to make sure the corporations are not guilty of fraud.

The internet is relatively new and a wonderful thing but everybody is learning as we go along. If we take the info. we learn from each other and start fingerpointing and accusing I fear we will no longer be able to pick up a phone, call a manufacturer and get a straight answer. No one said they were passing a 9hp engine off as a 12hp.! Rather the 12 was being used as a 9. It stands to reason that a 12 can produce 9hp so where is the fraud when the disclaimers are taken into account?

All of the different models using the same spec# engines that I researched  had SIGNIFICANT differences that imho justify the difference in price. In the beginning when it became apparent to me what the deal was I became a little angry. But the truth is I felt foolish for not having figured this out before."Let the buyer beware" is old school. With the net and forums like ours" let the buyer be infomed".

On a happier note I picked up the 1060DXLE for my son this morning. The plastic bag that came with it had a few spare shear pins. Simplicity is using shear pins that are retained by cotter pins(old fashioned huh) as opposed to the shear bolts we have become accustomed to. I assume this was their answer to over torquing the shear bolts.

List price-$1749 

Street price$1549

End of season would you please leave me alone and get out of my store price-

$1399,12 months same as cash

Marc

"I regret starting this whole thing because words like fraud turn everything nasty. We may not like it but all of the literature the manufacturers produce are filled with disclaimers written by lawyers to make sure the corporations are not guilty of fraud."

Yea but that's what some people on the forum are claiming in so many words. I could have sworn I read that the model numbers are exactly the same and so is all that goes into them thus, making a 12HP the same as an 8HP and an 8HP throwing like a 12HP.

If you pay 500 bucks for a 8HP engine labled 8HP, that is really a 12HP and, I pay 800 bucks for a 12HP engine that is indeed a 12HP engine, one of us is screwed and it ain't you. What's the term for that practice?

Marshall,

 It's called a:"SCAM" !!  Or the old shell game!!

                                                       Fred 

LOL, no doubt Fred.

But,  I go back to post before last, is this really happening? If slapped on a dyno, are they truly producing the same HP or, are there indeed difference that make these 10 & 12 HP engines have more HP?