Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Here are the facts I can find:

 

Model	Toro	Craftsman
Price	$1,294	$1,190	(all taxes, extended warranties included)
Warranty	2 yrs	5 yrs	(both in-home / in-home pickup)
CR rated	# 1	# 4
Free wheel steering	Y	Y
Horsepower	8 hp	9 hp
Wheel Size	15 “	16 “

 

Everything else (clearing path, etc) seem equal.  Normally I would jump on the Toro, based on its superior rating, not only for this model, but for many of their other models that have consistently done well in CR ratings.  The only caveat is, in a big storm (15” or more) does anyone think the extra 1 hp of the Craftsman will make a difference.  Two people I work with have Ariens (hard to believe I don’t disclose everything about my life in one post so this fact might shock some people).  One loves his 8.5hp Ariens and says it is more than adequate even in 15” storms, the other disagreed and traded in the 8.5 hp Ariens for an 11hp Ariens.  The “end of the driveway” was the argument for the latter co-worker getting a bigger machine.  Both co-workers say their wives could not use their Ariens due to handling is difficult (especially getting it out and in the garage where the pavement is dry).  So for me, the Ariens is not a product I want to consider.

 

I’m curious as to your opinions specifically about the hp between the Toro and the Craftsman.  Is it necessary to get a bigger machine (I live in upstate NY, but not in Syracuse or Buffalo – near Albany, where we get about 60” year in total snowfall). 

  SR,

          If you are going to buy a Craftsman blower, buy the 8HP, OHV, Murray built.

Weight 223 pounds, while not a heavy weight, it is not a lightweight either. 

I think the Murrays are better built than an MTD Machine.

 I understand that the OHV engines put out about 20 % torque more than a flat head engine.

So a 8HP OHV from Sears is equal a 9.6 HP Flat head.

                                                                                Fred                           

Bring your wife with you and let her tool the machine around the sales floor to see if she can handel it. Your friend backs up my opinion, that in your neck of the woods, an 8HP machine is minimum.
Trigger controlled turning like on the Simplicity's (Toro?) may be easier for your wife than the differential of the Ariens.
Last year OrchidCrazy bought her husband the Simplicity 960 because she was able to move it around easley.
No matter what the warranty is....I would go with Ariens, Simplicity or Toro before Craftsman. Look hard at the construction, welds, weight of components and ergonomics. Look at the overall weight of the machines and compare...That alone can tell you a lot.
....And bring the wife....If she is ever going to use it.

Dan

SR,

You have some problems with your chart. Check your facts.

The Sears website specifies the unit is using a Tecumseh 9hp engine.

I've read others recommend the Murray over the MTD, but I don't think Murray is making Craftsman any more - they are in Chapter 11.

Do you think the Toro 8hp is close enough in power to the Tecumseh?  While it's only 1hp, the difference is 12%.

Thanks.

robmints wrote:
Could you be more specific?  I rechecked it, but don't see a mistake.

I don't think the difference in horsepower between the two machines you have listed is significant. The Toro might take a bit longer to complete the job, but I don't know for sure. In my case I went with an 11.5 HP vs. 8HP because of the length of my drive and having to deal with two EODs (have rental property next door). I didn't go with the more expensive differential (professional series) because of budget. The machine turns on a dime with one wheel unlocked.

This morning I spoke with someone at work who has had a side business for many years doing repairs to mowers, snowblowers, and rototillers. Without mentioning this forum I asked him if in his experience he has seen any difference in quality between the Ariens, Toros, and Simplicities vs. the machines made by MTD, Murray, and AYP. He said he would go with the first group.

"...but I don't think Murray is making Craftsman any more - they are in Chapter 11."

From the article: "We will operate the business as usual, ensuring a seamless transition for our customers,..."

United Arilies is in chapter 11 and still flying
US Airways is in chapter 11 and still flying (for now)
K Mart continued to operate "as ususal" through chapter 11

Most companies that file for chapter 11 protection continue to operate and many come out of it stronger than when they went in (they are allowed to unload alot of obligations).

The concern is WILL they come out of chapter 11 or will MTD buy the name?

LL

lland wrote:
Didn't they just "buy" Sears? 

But I did a little more digging on Murray, and it doesn't look good.  As of Jan. 6 "Briggs & Stratton is in negotiations to acquire most of the assets of bankrupt Murray Inc., a consumer lawn and garden equipment manufacturer that owes Briggs about $40 million."

One really interesting point in the article was this: "On January 4, the Wall Street Journal published an analysis of the potential deal. In that article, some industry observers speculated that Briggs may be looking to enter the consumer market with Briggs-branded equipment."
Click here for article.

Hi...


..."The only caveat is, in a big storm (15” or more) does anyone think the extra 1 hp of the Craftsman will make a difference.  "...

Can't say without using both side-by-side in the same snow...

It's not just the HP that affects performance... this is only one part of it...
A lot of the machine's design and components used can/do affect it a lot...

For example...
Quote from BCS AMERICA:

"WHY INVEST IN BCS
 I. PERFORMANCE In virtually all outdoor, walk behind, power equipment sold in the US, power is transferred from the engine to the transmission by a belt. At its best, a belt loses 15% of the engine’s power in the transfer. In reality, the percentage is much higher. Every BCS tractor, by contrast, utilizes a spring-loaded, double cone clutch to transfer the engine’s power. The clutch loses less than 3% of the engine’s power. Because it is self-adjusting, the clutch maintains this high degree of efficiency through decades of use. Many manufacturers couple their belt(s) to transmissions that are nothing more than more belts and/or chain drive mechanisms. BCS combines its clutch with super-efficient transmissions of shafts and gears. "...

Dave...

Dave_in_CT,

Does BCS make snow throwers for anyone?

   

I don't know if BCS manufactures for anyone else...
I really really doubt a standalone snowblower would be one if they did...

They make professional grade 2-wheel tractors that use a variety of attachments...
like...
rototiller...
snowthrower...
brush cutter...
chipper/shredder...
and lots more available from them & other manufacturers...

I have an older BCS 8 HP 2-wheel tractor...
...the single-stage snowthrower attachment... and other attachments...
Here it is in action...






Their website is www.bcsamerica.com

Be ready for "price sticker shock"...   


Dave...

Hmmmm.... the picture was here... gone now...

Buy the Toro and don't look back. My toro, with 8HP, threw more snow much further than a neighbor's Arien that had 11HP.

The Joystick alone is worth the difference in price not to mention the re sale if that ever becomes an issue.

Remember though, my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

Jerry

SnowRemover wrote:

The difference is quite literally nothing. They are the SAME Tecumseh engine. It is all marketing and stickers.

For example: The engine in question has a dyno rating of say 8.4 horsepower. So, Toro looks at it and says "let's call it 8 hp". Ariens says " close to 8.5 so that is what we will call it". Sears looks at it and says " well it is more than 8 hp and we know that horsepower sells so lets order the 9.0 hp stickers." Same engine. Different perspectives. Bottom line....... look at the other features NOT the horsepower rating of similar machines.

Ken
:)

I just called a local dealer who says he has two Toro 828LXE's in stock.  He assembles them as soon as he gets them to make sure they work and will drop the price to $1,250 (with tax it jumps past $1,340 - but the $50 is worth it to buy local).

That said, is there anything I should look at to make absolutely SURE it is not a used product.

Thanks!

This isn't completely reliable but look at the skid plates and other moving parts for paint chips. If he's a Toro dealer and it's this years model the chances of getting a used one are very slim. If it's been moved and tested chances are the skid plates will have a little paint scraped anyway. The rest should be pristine. Also give it the sniff test to see if it has that new snowblower smell.

You're going to love it!

Jerry

SnowRemover wrote

There are 2 basic ways of measuring horsepower.  At the crankshaft or flywheel and on the ground. I dont think one hp would present a noticible difference except possibly in conditions that max out a machine. even then with all the factors involved  there could be no noticable difference.  Weight of a machine, type of drive (belt, chain or gears) tire or track size. its entirely feasible that a higher horsepower machine would actually have less usable horsepower to propel the machine and power attachments.

a good example of this is some years ago i had 2 tractors rated at the same pto horsepower (a case and an allis chalmers) it would be a very long post if i went into specifics about each, but pulling identical tools behind them the case would work 10 to 15% more ground in the same time period using approximately the same amount of fuel. presumably the reason for this was more usable horsepower on the ground, therefore more horsepower available to work.

it would be interesting to take say 10 identical engines (10 hp briggs for instance) and dyno all of them to see how close to actual hp raitings they all were.i woudlnt be at all surprised if there was as much as 10% difference between all of them.

  SP,

         I totaly agree with you, it is Hp at the wheels that counts!!

                                                            Fred

When I read it earlier the freewheel steering fields were stars.

I can't give you the cold hard facts you seem to want. The only thing I can offer is a personal anecdote.

I own the track drive version of the Craftsman (888500) you are considering. I would not buy another one, or under most curcumstances, recommend it or one similar.
The machine is fine on our typicall snows but struggles more and more as the snow gets wetter and wetter to the point of operating better as a plow than a snowblower. I have owned and used other machines and for the most part the premium brands mentioned are far superior in difficut conditions. It is only my opinion, take it or leave it.

Hi Snowremover,

Wow, I just read you are now considering a Toro 828 LXE.  If you read my review on this board, your decision should be clear.  The 8hp engine is plenty powerful with very little vibration.  You'll be amazed at the throw distance you get from this machine.  This model does not require shearpins, so it's one less thing you have to worry about.  The auger gear case seems very large compared to other snowblowers I've seen.  It's no wonder Toro did away with the pins.  It was also apparent to me that Toro has gone in a great direction with this machine and the R&D shows.  If you want to save a few dollars, and  you don't want the freewheel trigger steering option, go for the 826 LE.  Do yourself a favor and have the dealer allow you to test each machine in his parking lot.  You don't need snow to run it around.  Good luck

I don't think 1hp difference would be noticable.  Either one would be fine.  Which one do you prefer?

Quote: That said, is there anything I should look at to make absolutely SURE it is not a used product.
Yes.
Check the engine model tag. (It's usually on the blower housing...near the bottom...on the left hand side of the engine.)
That tag is made from a heat sensitive material that changes colors when the engine has been run.
When it is fresh.....it has red letters with a gold background.
Once it has been started and heated....it will turn too black letters on a silver background.
Make sure that it is red and gold.....then you can be sure that the machine has never been used.
If it is silver and black....you know that they are trying too rip you off by selling you a used piece of equiptment.
HTH.

Lint,
Is there an unusual record of problems or concerns related to the 828lxe that you know of?
Is there a reason you mentioned they might stop making them?
If I recall correctly it was two band brakes, one on each wheel to lock the wheels to the drive? Seemed pretty simple, but with something new, there usually seems to be an issue or two.
They already stopped the Power Shift, if they keep stopping production they will be out of the blower business.
Thanks.

buttlint wrote: Hey Lint, what about the machines the dealers start up to test it before delivery as part of inspecting it?

If the choice is between 1 horsepower and quality, choose quality. 1 more horsepower will never pay a really noticeable dividend over the long haul, but quality always will.  Even if 1 less horsepower is noticeable, it will simply take a little longer to do the job.

I'm biased, I chose a Toro.

AZ  

Hi AZ,

I agree with you.  If you're capable of going in either direction, quality should be priority.

The Murray built machines for Craftsman have higher bars.For me that is a handling factor. To bad they'r going belly up. Mine handles pretty good.Bigger tires are better too.Toro is better quality.I would buy a Toro before Ariens.OHV motor if you can get one.

navihawk wrote:

Don't hold me to it, but as far as I know none of the Toros have an OHV engine. I'm not knocking the Tecumseh SK's,  but I am happy with the R*tek two stroke in my Toro 726 and very glad I have it.

AZ

Just for the record, I want to say to everyone, this forum has no allegiance to any manufacturer over any other manufacturer nor do any of it's moderators. I know the regulars here know this because they have been around long enough to see all kinds of different brands being recommended by all of us. This is mainly directed to the new folks that are clueless, through no fault of their own, to any history of the forum.

All of the moderators on this site try their best to recommend what they feel is best for the members with the information members provide. If it happens to be brand X, then that is what they feel is a better solution. If it happens to be brand Y or Z, then they feel that is the best option based on the information provided.

With exceptions of course, there are some givens in the OPE world. One of them is that the Simplicities, Toro's Snapper's, Honda's Deere's, Kubota's, etc. of the world, are a better quality machine as a whole than products from MTD and Murray in what they manufacture. Most usually, not always but, most usually in the world of Outdoor Power Equipment, the more you spend, the better quality you get. The "you get what you pay for" rule is close to being correct most of the time in this industry.

If we error on anything, it's that we try to err on the side of quality because we want you to be a happy customer with whatever it is you decide. If we always recommended the cheapest solution, I can promise you we would have many folks hot under the collar with us and would not be doing anyone any favors!

Personally, I subscribe to the buy more heavy duty than I need theory because my equipment always lasts and doesn't get worn out in a few years. I try to keep in mind that not everyone wants to buy like I do and that price is a huge factor as well. In general, we try to recommend the best machine possible for your needs and pocketbook!

Our recommendations are based on facts taken from hands on experience,  knowledge of those we trust that have provided their opinion, a history of the performance of the product and our experience in looking at new models with new features and coming up with an opinion on what they may or may not provide you. We are not always right, by any means, and we will disagree between us from time to time. But, be it known and believed, our passion about this field is high and we are here for free to give answers and suggestions.

We are in no one's pocket and no one is paying us for doing this. Being this is a new forum, actually a new site starting up, I thought it might be nice for some folks to know this in order help them understand us and our motives better.

OK, enough on that. Marshall    

Quote: Hey Lint, what about the machines the dealers start up to test it before delivery as part of inspecting it?

Marshall.....
That's why I think it is a better idea for SnowRemover too buy from the bigbox.....That way he can be sure that the product comes in a sealed box...right from the factory.  (Making sure that the shipping bands havent been tampered with.)
Trust me....I know how these crooked dealers operate...They have dealer network that operates between Canada and the States. Because Canada's winter starts in mid-July, the Canadian dealers have all of these "returned" units stock-piled too the rafters.
There is a "window" before the first snows hit down here that they can send these ragged-out, defective units, down too Cuba, where all of the defects are cleverly hidden by cuban prisoners. (They really know thier stuff.)
From there.....they are shipped too Bolivia and then back up too the dealers in the States....where they are then re-sold too unsuspecting American consumers..
It's a nasty buisness...I know. But it just goes too show how far these kind of people will go too cheat the unsuspecting customer. Ya gotta watch em!

Marshall wrote:

Hey Marshall,

Glad you wrote that post, I think it really needed to be said.  As for the above quote, that's probably the most true statement of all.  Perhaps we all would love that Honda 924 in our garage, but how many could really afford it? The Sears Craftsman line has a smart way of marketing their snowblowers, give a large name brand engine, usually OHV, at a relatively low price compared to Honda, Simplicity, and Toro, and you make easy sales.  I've seen their snowblowers in the past offered with 9hp engines, for something like $600.00.

Nice post Marshall !

Why not add it to your "Snowblower Questions, please read before posting. TY" post ?

Opps... should be post.... not posy ! LOL...


Dave...

Thanks Richie.

Thanks Dave, that's a good idea. 

You could look at this another way - You get to buy a new machine every couple of years instead of being "stuck" with it for 30+ years... Buying NEW OPE is cool & assures a new toy for one to play with...

Marty