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Joined: Dec 6, 2010
Points: 6

Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Original Message   Dec 6, 2010 6:24 pm
Good afternoon everybody! I was hoping for some help.  I am a little torn between buy an Oreck Edge and a Kirby Sentria.  I have wanted a Kirby for a very long time, and I know how heavy it is (which seems to be the major critism everybody makes) as I used one growing up.  I believe the Kirby will keep my carpets very clean and that it will last a long time.  I would buy used/refurbished and therefore there would be no (or a very minor) warrenty.

However, today I decided to stop by an Oreck store and was very impressed with the Oreck Edge, which is the only Oreck that would work on my deep pile carpeting.  I am not convinced that it would do as well of a job and since it's a newer "edition" it doesn't appear yet on with a Seal of Approval on the Carpet and Rug Institute webpage (although many other Orecks do).  A Seal of Approval would be very important to me because I feel like they don't have a vested interest in what I buy.  (Consumer Reports doesn't seem to rate the higher end vacuums, which is disapointing).

Has anybody had experience with a deep cut-pile carpeting and what vacuum would work best? (I also glanced at a Riccar, but didn't fall in love). Anything you can do to sway me one was or the other would be helpful.  Please don't tell me the Kirby is heavy, I doubt the current version can be any heavier than the 1970s version I grew up pushing with no self propelling feature.

Replies: 35 - 44 of 44Next page of topicsPreviousAllView as Outline
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #35   Dec 8, 2010 4:31 pm
vacmanuk wrote:
Strange that Miele aren't even listed...but it seems this is purely only for upright vacuums. Goes to show in this instance that a "seal of approval" is no measure to finding the best vacuum cleaner, no matter how many products Oreck has managed to get in the Gold seal category.



ORECK has the most models with the CRI seal while some are made by others and badged with ORECK's name.  On the value of the seal, I have mixed feelings.  It proves that the brand and model passed the rigorous tests by the CRI for the seal.  A "CPA" [certified public accountanty] has a certification that he/she passed a very difficult professional industry test to attain the CPA certification.  Does that make the person an expert accountant in all facets of accounting?  Maybe, maybe not.  I've known excellent CPA's and I've known terrible CPA's.  Such are the constraints of any certification.  When you visit a doctor or lawyer and see the sheepskin on the wall it doesn't say that the person was first or last in the graduating class.  Just that he/she passed.

Carmine D.

Just


Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Points: 161

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #36   Dec 9, 2010 12:58 pm
CarmineD wrote:
Hello my friend:

I would add to answer your question about abandoning the aluminum fans:  The little old lady, who was the only Kirby employee one who could balance them properly, died. 

Carmine D.



Oh Carmine,

You are so full of old poo.  LOL

About direct air systems:

If we remember our vacuum, or more accurate the Bernoulli principal.  Direct air machines are more efficient and in moving large volumes of air, ie Kirby because the fan is so close to the work area.  In the case of the Kirby, the fan is approximately three inches to six inches from the carpet.  The air flow generated by the fan coupled with the Bernoulli effect in the bell shaped nozzle moves large volumes of  air through a narrowing nozzle  and thus generates the vacuum to pull the deeply embeded dirt from the carpet and allowing the tremendous air flow to wisk it away.    The dirt laden air is then pulled through the fan into and exhausted through the air horn into the bag system.  Here the dirt is deposited into the bag and the air pressure drops back to atmospheric pressure and the cycle continues.   All in all it is a short air path and an efficient system .  The effect of pushing the dirt into the bag, instead of having to pull the air through tiny pores reduces the effect of the clogging bag that Mr. Dyson likes to reference.

Now a clean air machine creates the vacuum within the fan case often some distance from the cleaning surface.  The air is pulled, not pushed through the filter material through a hose and finally the rug nozzle.  Basically a cannister standing upright. Though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate. 

Riccar/Simplicity has a Tandium air two motor system that is supposed to give the best of both worlds.  My issues is a $,1600 plastic machine is a hard sell to me, especially when there is little weight savings over the Kirby that has been tried an proven for almost 100 years. 

This message was modified Dec 9, 2010 by Just
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #37   Dec 9, 2010 4:01 pm
Just wrote:
Oh Carmine,

You are so full of old poo.  LOL

About direct air systems:

If we remember our vacuum, or more accurate the Bernoulli principal.  Direct air machines are more efficient and in moving large volumes of air, ie Kirby because the fan is so close to the work area.  In the case of the Kirby, the fan is approximately three inches to six inches from the carpet.  The air flow generated by the fan coupled with the Bernoulli effect in the bell shaped nozzle moves large volumes of  air through a narrowing nozzle  and thus generates the vacuum to pull the deeply embeded dirt from the carpet and allowing the tremendous air flow to wisk it away.    The dirt laden air is then pulled through the fan into and exhausted through the air horn into the bag system.  Here the dirt is deposited into the bag and the air pressure drops back to atmospheric pressure and the cycle continues.   All in all it is a short air path and an efficient system .  The effect of pushing the dirt into the bag, instead of having to pull the air through tiny pores reduces the effect of the clogging bag that Mr. Dyson likes to reference.

Now a clean air machine creates the vacuum within the fan case often some distance from the cleaning surface.  The air is pulled, not pushed through the filter material through a hose and finally the rug nozzle.  Basically a cannister standing upright. Though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate. 

Riccar/Simplicity has a Tandium air two motor system that is supposed to give the best of both worlds.  My issues is a $,1600 plastic machine is a hard sell to me, especially when there is little weight savings over the Kirby that has been tried an proven for almost 100 years. 



Just, Shame on you...........

Simplicity/RICCAR would be my choice over the ORECK Edge and KIRBY Sentria too.  But sadly the poster ruled the brands out and posed only the two options for posters to sway. 

Nice to have you here again. 

Carmine D.

vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #38   Dec 11, 2010 8:27 pm
Just wrote:
If we remember our vacuum, or more accurate the Bernoulli principal.  Direct air machines are more efficient and in moving large volumes of air, ie Kirby because the fan is so close to the work area.  In the case of the Kirby, the fan is approximately three inches to six inches from the carpet.  The air flow generated by the fan coupled with the Bernoulli effect in the bell shaped nozzle moves large volumes of  air through a narrowing nozzle  and thus generates the vacuum to pull the deeply embeded dirt from the carpet and allowing the tremendous air flow to wisk it away.    The dirt laden air is then pulled through the fan into and exhausted through the air horn into the bag system.  Here the dirt is deposited into the bag and the air pressure drops back to atmospheric pressure and the cycle continues.   All in all it is a short air path and an efficient system .  The effect of pushing the dirt into the bag, instead of having to pull the air through tiny pores reduces the effect of the clogging bag that Mr. Dyson likes to reference.

Now a clean air machine creates the vacuum within the fan case often some distance from the cleaning surface.  The air is pulled, not pushed through the filter material through a hose and finally the rug nozzle.  Basically a cannister standing upright. Though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate. 

Riccar/Simplicity has a Tandium air two motor system that is supposed to give the best of both worlds.  My issues is a $,1600 plastic machine is a hard sell to me, especially when there is little weight savings over the Kirby that has been tried an proven for almost 100 years. 


Regardless of what Kirby claim, dirty fan systems mean broken fans on other brands. Clean air systems eliminate that. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate."
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #39   Dec 12, 2010 7:32 am
vacmanuk wrote:
Regardless of what Kirby claim, dirty fan systems mean broken fans on other brands. Clean air systems eliminate that. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate."



Vacmanuk:

Both KIRBY and ORECK use the old fashion vacuum principle of fan first dirt path to the bag.  With no tools on board.  Old fashioned by the years' old advances in vacuum features and technology.  To ORECK's credit, the Edge has a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning while still in the upright mode.  KIRBY after all these years does not.  ORECK to its credit has a dirt by pass vacuum system that does not degrade the motor with the Halo.  KIRBY does not, strictly old old method.  ORECK prices have come down and products have been added to the big box retail store venues to stay competitive in the industry.  KIRBY has not.  If you see a trend and/or moral here, it is this: Change and flourish.  Stay the same and risk vanishing.  

Carmine D.

This message was modified Dec 12, 2010 by CarmineD
vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #40   Dec 12, 2010 7:55 am
CarmineD wrote:
Vacmanuk:

Both KIRBY and ORECK use the old fashion vacuum principal of fan first dirt path to the bag.  With no tools on board.  Old fashioned by the years' old advances in vacuum features and technology.  To ORECK's credit, the Edge has a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning while still in the upright mode.  KIRBY after all these years does not.  ORECK to its credit has a dirt by pass vacuum system with the Halo.  KIRBY does not, strictly old old method.  ORECK prices have come down and products have been added to the big box store venues to stay competitive in the industry.  KIRBY has not.  If you see a trend and/or moral here, it is this: Change and flourish.  Stay the same and vanish.  

Carmine D.


Mm you supply a statement to qualify my question "with no tools on board," but then offer an Oreck model that has "a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning..." but it doesn't answer my original question to "..."though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate..." Don't the Sanitaire commercial uprights (et al soft bag traditionals) still use dirty fan, though? We have them in the UK although their weight counteracts productive use in many commercial areas where the SEBO uprights are better.

I get the issue that the dust travels faster direct from floorhead through vacuum air to the fan and then to the bag. What I don't get is the rather fleeting statement that clean air vacuums "suffer generating the air flow." What is there to suffer when the fan is protected and no dust/stones are ever going to damage it?
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #41   Dec 12, 2010 8:06 am
vacmanuk wrote:
Mm you supply a statement to qualify my question "with no tools on board," but then offer an Oreck model that has "a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning..." but it doesn't answer my original question to "..."though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate..." Don't the Sanitaire commercial uprights (et al soft bag traditionals) still use dirty fan, though? We have them in the UK although their weight counteracts productive use in many commercial areas where the SEBO uprights are better.

I get the issue that the dust travels faster direct from floorhead through vacuum air to the fan and then to the bag. What I don't get is the rather fleeting statement that clean air vacuums "suffer generating the air flow." What is there to suffer when the fan is protected and no dust/stones are ever going to damage it?


Yes, most definitely.  But the maker offers clean air dirt by-pass systems with tools on board too.  Changed with the times and advances in the vacuum industry technology.  KIRBY has not.  You can only stay tried and true to the past for so long.  At some point, if you offer the one and only option at the expense of no others, your time runs out.

Carmine D.

This message was modified Dec 12, 2010 by CarmineD
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #42   Dec 12, 2010 8:54 am
vacmanuk wrote:
Mm you supply a statement to qualify my question "with no tools on board," but then offer an Oreck model that has "a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning..." but it doesn't answer my original question to "..."though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate..." Don't the Sanitaire commercial uprights (et al soft bag traditionals) still use dirty fan, though? We have them in the UK although their weight counteracts productive use in many commercial areas where the SEBO uprights are better.

I get the issue that the dust travels faster direct from floorhead through vacuum air to the fan and then to the bag. What I don't get is the rather fleeting statement that clean air vacuums "suffer generating the air flow." What is there to suffer when the fan is protected and no dust/stones are ever going to damage it?



ORECK offers a convincing explanation of this in comparing its upright to a by-pass dirt path design.  If you have access to it [generally in its advertising], it's worth reading.  In short, the convoluted air/dirt path of vacuums with clean air systems diminishes the air flow and force [suction] over its long path from nozzle head to dirt containment.  Hence, vacuums with clean air systems have motors with much larger amps and watts [more energy consumptionmotors] than vacuums with fan first designs [like the old fashioned vacuums].

Carmine D.

Trebor


Joined: Jan 16, 2009
Points: 321

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #43   Dec 17, 2010 3:57 pm
Clean air and direct air systems offer different strengths.  Science tells us there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. While clean air uprights do exist, and can do an excellent job of cleaning carpet, they do so at a much higher operational cost than  direct air uprights: higher electric power consumption, and seals which needs to be replaced eventually,not to mention additional filters. Canister machines need new hoses periodically. The internal wear and accicental damage cause a restriction of airflow. No matter how good the power nozzle may be, it cannot match the open fan upright's ability to pick the carpet up and hold it on a cushion of air. The open fan upright can always be restored to 100% of it's original cleaning power by installing a new belt,bag and brush, and perhaps a new fan and carbon brushes, easily. quickly,and inexpensively. The open fan upright lacks the cachet of newer design, and on-board tools,but it cannot be trumped for economically deep cleanining carpet over the long haul.

The Kirby offers a simple conversion to a canister unit, and I have yet to discover a better wand/brush arrngement for wall/ceiling dusting than Kirby's. Heavy? Not to push. To pick up? No more than a Hoover Power Drive. With a good direct air upright, a simple canister, like a Eureka Mightey Mite, will provide ample tool cleaning functions.

Miele are wonderful vacuums, as are many others, but they do have inherently higher operation/maintenaance costs. If higher suction is used to replace high airflow and positive agitation of the rug, conducting dirt through 10-12 feet of hose/wands it costs more that using a simple, old fashioned open fan upright. Filtration is another point altogether, and changes the discussion entirely.

vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: Oreck Edge VS Kirby Sentria
Reply #44   Dec 17, 2010 6:36 pm
Trebor wrote:
Clean air and direct air systems offer different strengths.  Science tells us there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. While clean air uprights do exist, and can do an excellent job of cleaning carpet, they do so at a much higher operational cost than  direct air uprights: higher electric power consumption, and seals which needs to be replaced eventually,not to mention additional filters. Canister machines need new hoses periodically. The internal wear and accicental damage cause a restriction of airflow. No matter how good the power nozzle may be, it cannot match the open fan upright's ability to pick the carpet up and hold it on a cushion of air. The open fan upright can always be restored to 100% of it's original cleaning power by installing a new belt,bag and brush, and perhaps a new fan and carbon brushes, easily. quickly,and inexpensively. The open fan upright lacks the cachet of newer design, and on-board tools,but it cannot be trumped for economically deep cleanining carpet over the long haul.

The Kirby offers a simple conversion to a canister unit, and I have yet to discover a better wand/brush arrngement for wall/ceiling dusting than Kirby's. Heavy? Not to push. To pick up? No more than a Hoover Power Drive. With a good direct air upright, a simple canister, like a Eureka Mightey Mite, will provide ample tool cleaning functions.

Miele are wonderful vacuums, as are many others, but they do have inherently higher operation/maintenaance costs. If higher suction is used to replace high airflow and positive agitation of the rug, conducting dirt through 10-12 feet of hose/wands it costs more that using a simple, old fashioned open fan upright. Filtration is another point altogether, and changes the discussion entirely.


Well it may be cheaper to maintain a traditional dirty fan system vacuum in the U.S but not so in the U.K

Infact getting parts for several Hoover line ups are getting increasingly difficult. Carbon brushes also exist for many clean air systems including the SEBO X models but Hoover UK charge an astronomical amount of money for the outer replacement dust bag for the Junior/Senior/Convertible series.

Of the dirty fan system designed vacuums I've used Trebor, they clog far more quickly than clean air and the cost of a new belt, bag and brush can easily be aligned with the more modern vacuum design.

I've never used a Kirby other than for floor cleaning and the whole escapade of change over didn't impress me much with its heavier design. I guess in this respect this is why I prefer the modern design of the SEBO X / Windsor Sensor. Also the SEBO doesn't need much maintenance other than new filters and bags. Sometimes it just needs it brush roller checked like other uprights when hairs or threads wrap around the roller. Infact, my first model that lasted 13 to 15 years only ever needed one replacement toothed drive belt (the original broke under pressure and due to my own fault!) before it was sold on.
This message was modified Dec 17, 2010 by vacmanuk
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