Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi

I've got an old snowblower that will not start even though we emtied all old gas from it , checked the spark-plug- ignition! and the new gas entered the carburettor but obviously not the cylinder why it didn't start. The snow blower is old but not much used 3-4 winters and for two years ago there was no problem whatsoever.

It is an ARIENS ST 504 motornumber HS 50670080 and serialnumber 93338.

We got a tip to change the diaphragm but does anyone know anything else we can do. The snow is coming in Sweden and I don't like showelling.

I think you have a Techumseh engine. Did you prime your engine by pumping you priming bulb a few times? Some snow blowers have a fuel shut off valve, make sure it is open. Open your throttle all the way.Give your priming bulb 5 or 6 pumps, Now start it with your choke almost closed. If it starts let it run and warm up, then open your choke all the way. Did it start?  If not ,  remove your spark plug and put a teaspoon of fresh gas in you cylinder, put your plug back in and start it. it should run for a few seconds or try to. If it does you  not have an ignition problem or compression problem. Your carb is most likely gummed up inside. Techumseh engines Carbs go for $50 - $80- try cleaning it- make sure you do not have any old gas in it only run fresh gas. Your engine will never run with old gas.
   Take your fuel boll apart first and see how gummed up it is. Check your float. Fuel should run out of it from your tank (float down) . You can clean it up with carb cleaner. Try running it again.  If you do  remove your carb to clean it- ( NEVER MESS WITH YOUR GOV CONTROL SETTINGS) pay attention and remove the rods and pt them back in the same holes.Your gov settings controls how your engine reacts to a load. If you mess with it with out knowing what you are doing , it will never run right untill you install it properly. To void you problems just unhook your rods , DON'T UNSCREW ANYTHING TO GET THEM OFF
You can buy 2 types of carb cleaner. The kind in a spray can or the kind in a Qt can. The one in the Qt can works best if your carb is really nasty. Gunk cleaner works best. If you do not have access to an air compressor for blowing out your orfaces use the type in a can. It comes with a straw to spray out your orfaces.
        Let me know how you make out. If your engine never started by pouring gas in it let me know ok. If you have any problems let me know
     

Hello

Thanks for your good advice. We havn't yet tried it but we will do it as soon as possible. When so we will get back to you. It was ever so nice of you yo help us out, we are very greatful

How did you make out?

Hi

Thanks for asking, but we havn't had time to fix it yet, due to too much work.

Merry xmas and a happy New Year. snowblower working or not.

Stig wrote:

Come on Stig! This Swedish born Canadian thinks you better get busy with the repairs; my uncle e-mailed me yesterday saying that they had a metre (40") of snow on the south coast of Sweden, more than he has seen in his 75+ years.

God Jul and Gott Nytt Ar to you too!

Svensk i Kanada

bus708 wrote:

Bus708, I do agree with your approach however you know how trickey carbs can be and I found the average joe will totally screw up the carb in the process. 9 times out of 10 the machine will end up in the shop with what is left of the carb parts in a box.

No doubt if the spark plug is dry after priming and cranking it over a few times the carb is most likely gunked up. With the MTBE and Ethenol they are putting in the fuel if don't use an additive you can be doomed in just a few months.

Short of taking the carb off and rebuilding it, back out the mixture screw, hit it with a shot of carb spray and a shot of air to clear out the port. Just to enlighten the novice here, count the number of turns while turning the mixture screw in until it lightly seats so you can back it out the same number of turns and it will get you right around the same mixture setting. Most Techumseh carbs also have a float bowl mixture screw and a 1/2 turn in each direction will generally clear out the bowl jet.

Finally a quick shot of starting ether in front of the air intake before cranking it over and you will surely get her to fire up. Once it is running let it warm up a little and you can adjust the mixture and bowl adjusting screws for a smooth operation.

After all is said and done if it seems to be running OK, change the oil, clean the air filter and you should be good go.

Like I said before, carbs can be very tricky. If after you perform the above operation you can't it get it to run right, I would suggest taking it to a local repair shop. 

The real answer to this dilema here though so is does'nt happen to you again next year.... ALWAYS USE A FUEL ADDITIVE AND RUN IT DRY BEFORE A LONG STORAGE. 

Starwarrior

Just curious starwarrior.

Have ever disassembled one of those Tecumseh carbs?

They don't get much simpler than that. 

I can take one apart, completely clean it and re-assemble in probably less than twenty minutes.   I'm certain that a person with minimal mechanical aptitude could do it in an hour or less if they pay attention to how things come apart and are gentle while handling the float components.

Your suggestion to blow compressed air through the adjustment screw hole in the float bowl might clear the main jet or it also might just blow dirt and debris that may be in the float bowl into the main jet.  It's a toss up. 

From my experience, fuel additives are snake oil.  I did some personal testing to see how effective they are.  I've actually soaked carb components with varnish deposits on them in pure Seafoam and other fuel injector/carb cleaner additives.  The results were remarkably ineffective.  That put an end to my use of additives for carb cleaning.

There's only one way to clean a carb.  Pull it off, get an exploded view diagram if you're unfamiliar, find some written instructions/guidance procedures, ask questions and take it apart for a thorough cleaning.

A very thin piece of copper wire, some good old fashioned WD-40 or other spray cleaner and compressed air through every jet, orifice and gallery. 

Magic elixirs and compressed air won't cure a dirty carb.   I'd rather pull the carb apart and attempt to clean it rather than bring it to a shop for an $80.00/hr shop charge to fix a $25.00 carb.

Dirty carbs are probably responsible for 90% of the reasons an engine will not start or run properly.  The sooner a person learns that they aren't difficult to clean, the sooner they will get their machine running and they'll save a few buck too.

   

borat wrote:

Borat you are absolutey right and based on the blog trail it is pretty apparent that a few of you guys actually do know what you are talking about.

There is nothing much to a carb overhaul, a $10.00 carb kit, soak it, clean out the ports, adjust the float bowl settings, a few link rod adjustments, and she is good as new.

I have spent a few years with my little drill bits opening up the metering jets to obtain better performance and I lost count how many titanium mixture screw covers I have popped off over the years but I have found the average Joe gets lost just trying to figure how to adjust more than one float setting. (I don't think I have to go there) How many examples..Two float bowl gaskets or peice of gasket left on the seating plane. What little red gasket under the bowl jet or how many bent or reversed choke rods? And after all is said and done the machine is usually left  with half a tank of  fuel in the crankcase since the oil is usually the last thing to be changed nor has it ever been . 

Sometimes just a quick shot to clear out a little dirt in the float bowl or A/M port will work out just fine and as far as learning skills... The educated seem to be born with more thumbs.

Unless the tank is run dry and the fuel bowl drained, the single most important maintinance item for long term storage is fuel additive. 

Yeah, 50 to 100 bucks seems like alot of money but it is way cheaper than a new carb and rod bearings.

As for me,  I fog my engines before putting the machines away for the season. I also take out the metering screw and hit the port with a little WD.  Quite honestly the 10 minute effort will yield many years of top performance.

I stick by my story... For the average consumer, If a basic cleaning and maintinance effort doesn't help, take the machine to the shop and have it serviced.

Starwarrior

And I stick to mine.  Eighty bucks an hour to fix a $20.00 carb?????  Don't think so.

Additives are 99% ineffective.  I've learned that over time.  Got plenty of experience with them and have learned to avoid the hearsay and manufacturers claims.  Like most believers in snake oil, I used to delude myself into thinking that they were actually improving engine performance.  

Do a few experiments with additives as I did.  See what happens.       



Yo Stig:

Pull the carb and clean it.  No kit required if you don't damage any gaskets taking it apart.  Just cleaning.  If you've cleaned it properly, the machine will run like new. 

where can I get a new $20 carb??

borat wrote:

Right Borat, you may want to hunt for the 1% that is effective and it would be wise to read up on the damage that MTBE and Ethenol fuels are causing before you suggest alternatives.

It is not just about the flash point or octane rating of the fuel but also condensation and how ethenol fuels react with moisture over time. Just adding a good old can of Cristie Dry gas like you may have done a few years ago does not cut the mustard with ethenol fuels... (remember those days, 4 cans for $1.00)

Here is just one out of  thousands of white papers that have been published on the subject.

The introduction of water on E-10 fuel can be disasterous. E-10 can hold up to four teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon. Once this saturation point is exceeded, the solution separates and the gas floats on top while the ethanol and water mix on the bottom. This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity. While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced.Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

Additive companies like StaBil, Tectron, and Lucas are making gazillions on fuel stabilizers due to the addition of ethenol.

As for Stig... Borat does have a point, when it comes to carburators and not unlike any project for that matter, if you take your time, work clean, and use a little common sense, you can be very sucsessfull. It's isn't brain surgery we are talking about here. Just in case though, I will start your invoice.

Starwarrior

starwarrior wrote:

It might be better to buy in small quantities and leftover used in the car.

"Doomed in a few months", isn't that a bit alarmist?.  There are people who read the forums and might actually think that some well founded caution.  

The accumulation of water in a tank over three months in average weather (sun and rain over time) is very small if any at all.  If there is some samll accumulation in the tank there will have to be conditions to make it have any effect.  Just what is that?  The water which would seperate over months in a still tank would amount (in my estimate from checking) to only a few to several drops.  That water in a still tank would form at the bottom and could possibly make it to the outlet into the bowl and sit.  It could then be drawn up into the carb throat and cause the plug to get wet during starting.  No great disaster there for that possibility.  What if the water sat in the carb bowl for a very long period.  Rust could form in the bowl, break off and plug a nut hole.  For that to happen would require a bunch of unlikely events.   When you use OPE you get it out fumble with it which causes shaking and sloshing of the tank.  The little water in there will go back into the gas.  When it in that state it will just be burnt off.  So for average events the accumulation of water in gas is not a factor.

You can get an idea of what water will form in gas by leaving a quart of gas in a large container outside for weeks to a month.  A small amount of water will sometimes form at the bottom.  With a little shaking it will go into the gas making it slightly cloudy and burn fine.  Most water that does get into gas is suspended in the gas and burns.  If it does make it over to the bowl it's sucked up with gas and burns.

What does Stable actually do?   Does it evaporate the water?  Neutralize it? 

From what I've seen by putting water into a large open container and adding stable is the same as water in a container without Stable.  If you shake the container water goes into the gas and couds it with or without stable.  After sitting for a long time the water forms in a blob at the bottom of the container with and without Stable.  Over a long time I don't find Stable has reduced any water.  With water gas and Stable blobs still form at the bottom just like with no Stable.  Stable did not reduce any water that I ever saw.   It blobs just like the water does.  If it's blobed up at the bottom of a tank it's not acting on the gas. 

Just what is the value of Stable and how does it do it? 

Anyone who was successful at cleaning a dirty carb by using an additive, didn't have a dirty carb.   From my experience, additives are nothing more than a placebo.  I've tried many over the years and have finally come to the conclusion that they're snake oil.   

I have to say Trouts, your experiment with Seafoam last year was an eye opener for me.  After your experiment I did a few with various carb cleaners and got the same "no effect" results. 

The misinformation we've been reading/hearing about the perils of E10 fuel is pure b.s.   If one has the common sense to store their fuel in sealed containers, how could moisture possibly get into the fuel?  I leave E10 gasoline in five gallon gas containers for five to seven months at my camp over winter with no additives.  I use it in the spring and there's absolutely NO difference between it and fresh fuel. Been doing it for 30 years.  Never a problem.  If people want to be concerned about their fuel, they should be worried about water and contamination coming from the pump.  Use in-line fuel filters and many if not all of your fuel issues will be resolved.  


    

>>I've tried many over the years and have finally come to the conclusion that they're snake oil.   

   Me also.  Unless I see something concrete I’ll stick with the same view.

 

>>I did a few with various carb cleaners and got the same "no effect" results. 

   I did more myself with Seafoam and Stable and got no where.   I even did the dump into the throat thing a few more times with catches for anything that might have been loosened and blown out of the exhaust.  Nothing but impressive amounts of white smoke. 

 

 I’m dumping gas from machines all the time and put it on a shelf in the garage in large top containers.  You can see the water accumulation over time.  I never did that with pre EPA gas so unsure just what the difference in accumulation is.  It would be interesting to know just how much water would accumulate in old gas over new in 1 gallon over time.  I doubt if it would be much of a difference or make much of a difference. 

 

>>The misinformation we've been reading/hearing about the perils of E10 fuel is pure b.s.  

   Right, no consideration for extent or amount.  Water happened with the old fuel and with the new. 

 

>>I leave E10 gasoline in five gallon gas containers for five to seven months at my camp over winter with no additives. 

   Same here at the camp. 

 

    I guess anyone reading this could get a flashlight and look into their blower gas tank and refill tank that has been sitting for a while and look for any blobs at the bottom.   Don’t shake the tank before looking. If the tank is tilted like on many snowblowers the blob will be at the lowest level.  They are tough to see.  If none found note how clear the gas is and shake the tank.  If there is any significant blob you missed the gas will cloud.

jrtrebor wrote:

That could be tested by putting gas, water and stable in a cup for a few days.  The water will blob at the bottom allowing the gas and stable to be drawn off.  You could then see if water ignites with a match.  I doubt it would.

When I get a machine I bring it out to the street, flip it up and degrease the body, internals and engine.  I used Gumout a lot over the years and got a can for cleaning the blower.  It barely did anything.  Quite a change and I have not bought a can since. 

I don't find carb spray to have much effect on most varnish but there are several types I've found and it works a bit on some.  I felt forced to use dips.  After reading a bunch many said the dips also are not like the old dips.  I now double dip with NAPA and Berrymans.  I use the spray for whatever cleaning it might do and to be a jet of something substantial to push stuck crud out from lodged places.   I also find I have to brush with carb spray.  I dip bowls occasioally to see how good the dip is working.  Some varnish it will make very soft but not disolve it requiring brushing or spraying to get it off the metal.

It may be hard to find but when you are looking for brake or carb cleaners see it any of them contain Trichloroethylene it is non flammable and will quickly remove any varnish buildup on the carb.  It is one of if not the best degreaser's money can buy.

trouts2 wrote:

Yea I have to admint that 3 months does seem a little short  term but then again, I didn't write it I only forwarded it.

First hand I can tell you about one a young gentlemen who recieved a nice whopping $1,500.00 bill because he left the fuel (without additives) in his boat for 6 months.

The injector damage was primarilly due to the fact that he has a 30 micron filter in the engine that was not able to trap the contaminants but the real culprit here was the fuel.

I have very much the same setup in my boat only I have 10 micron filters in mine and I also used a fuel additive as directed by the engine manufacturer.

His injectors are clogged and needed to be commercially cleaned and tested. As for me, I went fishing.

I  figure it is generally good practice on my yard equipment to use the same maintinance ideology as if  it were an automobile (or boat)

Small engines generally don't even have a fuel filter which makes them even more vulnerable to contaminination. (now there's an industry cheepo for yah right up front)

You can take it for what it's worth but that is just one example of many and I am definately sold on fuel additives.

Not so much the stuff you can buy off the PeP Boy clearance shelf but I have found a few good ones like StaBil and I have been using them now for quite a few years.

It' seems a small price to pay for the problems that seem to be very common with E-10 fuels in boats, cars, and small engines.

Starwarrior

>>Just what is the value of Stable and how does it do it? <<

I've read that even Stable will turn to gum or varnish. 

   Conditions are generally left out of many discussions about fuel problems.  For example, I serviced a friends machine which was stored in a shead in the back corner of his yard.  The shed was under a tree.  The outside of the shed had a lot of green growth on it so damp.  There was some growth on the wood floors inside the shed.  The machine was about 10 years old and had rust all over.  The machine at best only had a couple of seasons left before it would fall apart. 

  The skids were worn off and the bucket sides being chewed off but it started on the first pull.  It was a surprise as I assumed it never had any maintenance.  I asked the guy about that.  He said he put the machine away after each use but did not clean it off.  He said he changed oil once a few years ago but never did anything with the gas.  Gas was left in year round, no shutoff, no draining of the tank or bowl and no stablizers.  First pull starts and never a problem with gas.  Lucky storage conditions. 

   It would be a different story if his shed was at the edge of the yard in the open sun where it could heat up and the temps get quite high.  Just say he left a log of gas in the tank and no fuel shutoff.  The gas in the carb would drain and more come down repeating over and over until gone.  That engine probably would not come close to starting in one season.  For another situation it might take several seasons before enough varnish started plugging things up.

   When I pick up dead machine I always ask about storage and what they did about gas and maintenance.  There's a lot of commen elements in the stories.

   Possibly the boat story was helped along by being at a dock in the sun all day.  Maybe it was covered and baked the fuel.  ?? Who knows.  There are lots of variations with conditions.  From what I've seen it looks like having a fuel shutoff helps out.  With a shutoff only a small amount will evaporate, at lest in the carb.

Carlb, thanks.  I'll keep an eye out for that.  I've tried all the cleaners in the stores around here and have not found any good at all varnishes.

Trouts:

I use Varsol (paint thinner).  It doesn't perform miracles but with a bit of Varsol and a toothbrush, it cleans carb parts quite well and it's not expensive.  I prefer low odour Varsol.  Regular stuff is very strong smelling.  If I'm going to clean a carb, I drop the whole thing into a coffee can and just cover the carb in Varsol to let it sit for a while.  I clean the crud off of the exterior first then take the carb apart.  I go through every jet, gallery and orifice with a very, very thin piece of copper wire, give them a shot of WD-40 then compressed air.  Works perfect every time.  I have yet to even have to install a carb kit.  If you don't tear a gasket, the carb should go right back together and work as good as new.   

Hi Stig,

How are you? All of us want to know how you made out. Did you get it running?

FROM TECUMSEH MANUAL

 Fuel Recommendations

Today’s fuels have a short shelf life and it is recommended you buy no more than a two week supply at a time.

SHORT TERM STORAGE

TecumsehPower recommends using ULTRA-FRESH or Fuel Saver Plus Gasoline Stabilizer plus Fuel System Cleaner as an acceptable method of minimizing formation of fuel gum deposits during storage. This product is available from your Authorized TecumsehPower Servicing Dealer.

Always follow mix ratio found on stabilizer container. Failure to do so may result in equipment damage.

It is not necessary to drain stabilized gas from carburetor.

FUEL TREATMENT

1. Add fuel stabilizer according to manufacturer’s instructions.

2. Run engine at least 10 minutes after adding stabilizer to allow it to reach carburetor.

3. Instead of using a fuel preservative/stabilizer, you can empty the fuel tank as described under "Extended Storage”.

 FROM MY JOHN DEERE RIDING MOWER MANUAL

 Storing Engine:  Use TY6295 John Deere Gasoline Storage Stabilizer or equivalent in fuel tank.  Follow directions on can. Gasoline storage stabilizer must be used when storing riding mower to prevent carburetor varnishing and partial plugging of carburetor jets. Either of these conditions could cause the engine to run lean and result in piston seizure and engine failure.