Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Look at these gems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNBxAE1FWyU Seem to get good reviews, too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-BSG8PRO1GB-Cylinder-Vacuum-Cleaner/dp/B001E5CBRU/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1271175245&sr=1-6 Does anybody here have any personal experience with Bosch? Are they Made in Germany? I do believe these new machines are, like Bosch's REAL products; not their somewhat decent but simply re-badged bagless upright that was supposedly a Vax and Dirt Devil re-name. Not even sure if that's true. But anyways check out that new bagless machine. A German-Made bagless?! This should be sweet. That new technology looks very interesting, too :D Ten year motor warranty, as well. Very impressive!

Venson wrote:
The clogged bag was the mantra in which Dyson felt that as a consumer, he, himself and whoever used the 'second hand Hoover Junior with the reuseable paper dust bag," was a bit of a con when it clogged the moment it was put back in after shaking out. This is documented in his book as well as the endless advertising/commercials when Dyson first entered the market. It is a point that he has never let Hoover get away with, even now.

See the story if you wish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4jpQGV_1Hw&feature=related (also note the still image of his old Hoover Junior fashioned with a cyclone chamber on top of the motor hood!)

Automatic suction sensoring is something Hoover UK also dabbled with the 1980's and 1990's with its "Autosense" feature. Whilst it did the same thing of supposedly "sensing" the amount of dust the vacuum was asked to clean, the mechanics were not very reliable and Hoover had marketed the feature as being energy saving even though for the most part the vacuums that had this feature fitted kept going onto the highest level of power rather than the lowest. What made matters worse was that Hoover had fitted a selectable suction control for the owners to choose, only for the Hoover itself to decide what the suction setting was, regardless of what the owner tried to manually input. Autosense isn't a feature that has been included on Hoover's latest products nowadays. It was also a feature that cost a lot to repair and really didn't do much in terms of its actual use on board their uprights. Panasonic also did this with a lot of their uprights but the sensors often ignored the lower bands of selective power and constantly made the vacuums difficult to steer with the full force of fixed suction at the top.

Rather than try and offer up capacities of a bagless Dyson against the larger dust bag from a Miele, I suggest that you get a Dyson, Venson and a full bag from your Miele. Suck out all the dust from the bag, cut the bag in half and also suck out the dust that has clogged the multi filters of the HyClean and watch as the Dyson bin fills up with still more capacity to take - the cyclonic action always pushes the dirt around and down towards the base of the bin. I was surprised to find that my little Vax Mach Air with its 1.5 litre capacity could take twice the amount of dust from a Miele bag before it needed to be emptied - viewable from the bin and also going over the max full decal with space above for more dust! Granted the pre motor filter is different on MANY bagless vacuums, but most in Dyson's case are just under the bin. For the fact that those filters are washable, it does in theory provide some substance that they are just as efficient as the Miele white filters that go behind the bag - which according to Miele aren't washable (I've washed mine!). I think you'd be surprised to find that Dyson vacuums and other bagless brands can take far more dust "in one go" against their known capacities - same as paper dust bags in other brands. My SEBO X bags for example has 5.5 litres by stats but there's been times when it's been left in the machine, dust is nearly coming out the top and the red light on the machine has yet to come on to show that the bag needs emptied!

vacmanuk wrote:

If I may add my 2 cents, Venson when you do the comparison use your MIELE S7 upright with 6.76 qt dirt bag capacity [if Vacmanuk is referring to a dyson upright dirt bin capacity] rather than your S5 MIELE cann with 4.76 qt dirt capacity.    Might suggest Vacmanuk you do the same and let us know the results.   

Carmine  D.

CarmineD wrote:
I think I'll try it with my SEBO X since I don't have the S7, Carmine.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi guys,

Opinions are always welcome but I don't see myself making such tests in the near future.  The only only Dyson so far that made an impression on me was the DC28. The suction's nice and it cleans well plus is user adjustable for carpet height.   And guess what?  It's not a ball model that, according to Dyson at least, the world can't live without.  Fancy that.

However, no matter the model, I hate the attachment set-up.   Just a few days back, I had opportunity to handle the DC33 that seems to be drawing interest from some shoppers by way of pricing but was first, taken aback by its flimsy feel and second, "bitten" again while try to get the hose and wand assembly in back in place after removing them to check out the suction.  That also proved a waste.  Serves me right for not knowing better.

The "those nasty old clogged up bags" campaign has been with us for years and so has the malarkey.  Rexair -- now Rainbow -- for one, was supposed to have solved the problem by tossing the idea of contained cyclones to the wind (is that a pun) AND  bags also by giving us a monsoon in a can.  "Wet dust cannot fly."  You didn't have to buy bags but you did get to tote around the weight equivalent of a large, filled mop bucket as you cleaned.  And to what avail?  They had to and still have to be emptied and refilled during cleaning sessions to keep dust collection at its best.  They did not capture all the dust they claimed and in later years, without the least of a sheepish look in regard to how the company had long swore by its claims that the water batch captured everything, began to slap on HEPA filters.  Bottom line, cleaning was satisfactory and filtering tolerable but the the trade off for water instead of a bag simply led to a lot of work.  A lot of bright ideas in the vacuum industry have proved interesting science as well but lead to more work than I'm prepared to deal with at present.

I am not as concerned over how much Dyson or bagless vacs in general can pick as I am over maintenance issues.  My bagged machines, so far, free me up from extra work and put forth little need for serious attention on my part over the long run save for reasonable care and use.  Oddly enough I was asked the advantage of bagless as opposed to bagged and the best answer I could give is that it all depends upon what the user is prepared to deal with.  A regular maintenance regimen to keep a bagless machine performing its best and thus make the payoff for not having to buy bags count or shouldering the responsibility of paying a required amount for disposable vacuum bags and filters in the name of convenience and less work.

It would seem, at least to me, that a so-called advantage would mean that which lessens problems as opposed to increasing them.  If Dyson owners can continually run their machines when dirts past the fill line in the bin and still have them over the long without a lot of trips to repair shops, good for them.  It's me who sees no advantage.

Venson

Venson wrote:
Good points Venson.

I guess the proof is in the pudding. As owners, we can only testify through our own experiences what the good and bad points are, largely boosted and promoted by what we feel we can put up with rather than true design points that actually alleviate one aspect or another or in real time testing that has a neutral line. I prefer bags but the reason I bought a bagless vacuum was purely because I was wasting the expensive bags on picking up paper shreddings from my large office shredder as well as handy for new carpets that waste a lot of dust bags with top soil carpet fluff. I'm also annoyed that Miele's super air clean filters only last 4 bags duration before needing to be replaced, regardless of whether they come in a box of every 4 bags bought.

vacmanuk wrote:

You're very lucky.  Most households have and can only afford one vacuum and rely on it for all related tasks.  Miele loses points by way of its pricing in general and there'll never be a way that it will convince me that the cost of manufacture and shipping of bags from wherever they're made amounts any where near the $19.00 and change (before sales tax) that's being asked here.  I seldom spend that much on a shirt.

But that's the way of the world I guess.  Can you believe that smokers here in New York now actually pay $7.00 to $10.00 per pack for cigarettes?  You'd think they'd quit but they don't.  They may groan a bit about it but in the end they meet the price and keep puffing.  I can't say that the increasing cost of an addiction makes a good comparison but I assume Miele expects somewhat the same result once its hooked a sale.  "You went out and bought the thing so what are you gonna do?"

The only way that will change is when and if other manufacturers start offering better deals.

Venson

vacmanuk wrote:

Not for my benefit.  I'm with Venson on the dirt bag/bin capacities.  I was suggesting that any comparison of dirt containment capacity be like kind.  Cann bag to cann dirt bin.  Up bag to up dirt bin.  For parity.  Using straight suction to vacuum up a bag's contents is not the same as using the vacuum itself to pick up the same contents itself.  By letting the first vacuum do all the work, and letting the second merely straight suction up, is a lot easier on the second vacuum than the first vacuum.  Plus you can NEVER straight suction the imbedded dirt in the pores of the filter bag into the bin by straight suction alone.  Try it.  Then shake the vacuumed bag and see what comes out.  More fine dirt and dust that is bonded to the bag's filter and air pores.  If it were as easy as straight suctioning the used bag, then a case could be made for reusing the bag.  But it's not.  Why?  Dump the bag.  Suction clean.  Still have pores in the bag filled with fine dust and dirt.  Which degrades and comprises the filtering and air pass through of the bag to keep the motor cool anmd suction at peak performance.  If you have some old HOOVER upright reusable paper bags [from the models 60, 61, and 62] note the heavier density of the paper vice the disposable paper bags. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

"I've heard this over & over and even heard that from Oreck to get dealers to buy into their system, yet, I see little evidence that this this where dealers make the real money. So far in this business I need Vac Sales, Repairs, Parts and consumables to survive."

Hi Lucky1,

Read me again.  What I meant to say was that branded vacuum consumables -- recommended bags, belts, filters only attainable through vac makers -- keep extra revenue coming in for vac makers and in a fashion keeps end-users bound to the company long term, if they make relatively durable machinery.  My error may have been using "the industry"  instead of "manufacturers" to best describe the entities I was referring to. 

No reference to independent vendors was intended.  That's a whole other ball game. For the 20 bucks I may spend on a pack of Miele high-end bags I have no idea at all how much resellers make.  I am told it's not much but I do intend to find out for myself by hook or crook one of these days. Nonetheless, that keeps myself and the guys who sold me my unit linked up with Miele for the length of time I'll own my machines.     

Venson

Venson wrote:
Ah but you guys have somethings tougher and easier than we UK citizens! You have different levels of payable healthcare - we dont - we have a free service that is nothing next to hopeless and then private care that is similar to your Blue cross system.

We don't have our credit cards linked to our drivers licenses.

As for cigarettes, a 20 pack here costs on average the same as $10.

Your car prices and household appliance costs are usually cheaper too!

UK consumers have only just got into buying two vacuums. Ironically, it seems to be a trait by DYSON OWNERS who have been let down. Or more to the point, they can't be ars** to wash the filter to de-clog the pipes when it all goes wrong. In Miele's advertising UK brochures (before they went from paper to online pdf. formats) the wording for the "The Alternative," stick vac model (S140 - S160) carried the marketing line "suitable as a second cleaner for the home," which often provoked the thoughts of UK buyers.