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Hertz


Joined: Jan 31, 2010
Points: 199

Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Original Message   Apr 13, 2010 12:16 pm
Look at these gems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNBxAE1FWyU Seem to get good reviews, too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-BSG8PRO1GB-Cylinder-Vacuum-Cleaner/dp/B001E5CBRU/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1271175245&sr=1-6 Does anybody here have any personal experience with Bosch? Are they Made in Germany? I do believe these new machines are, like Bosch's REAL products; not their somewhat decent but simply re-badged bagless upright that was supposedly a Vax and Dirt Devil re-name. Not even sure if that's true. But anyways check out that new bagless machine. A German-Made bagless?! This should be sweet. That new technology looks very interesting, too :D Ten year motor warranty, as well. Very impressive!
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Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #24   Dec 13, 2010 10:53 am
M00seUK wrote:

Ideally, dual cyclone vacuums would have a shut off before any overloading could plug the cyclones - but practically, for a domestic cleaner, I'd suspect this would be very challenging and add to the handling weight.



Hi M00seUK,

The idea's quite nice but it would mean employing strategically placed dust sensors in a bagless machine.  That would probably cause a rise in cost unfavorable to most consumers and probably more maintenance issues for keeping the sensors clean.  Anyway . . .

Funny thing happend yesterday.  A salesman was explaining the difference in two canister vac models of the same brand to a mother and her teenage daughter.  When he told them that one had a full bag alert and that the other didin't the daughter asked, "Well how do you know when the bag is full?"

"You look," I said.

I am always amazed how things that are simple can so easily escape people lately.  I don't know whether that is attributable to over-hype of so-called feature advantages. 

Venson

Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #25   Dec 13, 2010 11:57 am
vacmanuk wrote:
My point is that the bag can't be used twice, Venson. That was Dyson's original mantra. A lot of the old Hoover vacuums in the UK still have reuseable paper dust bags - not to also exclude vacuums that use the reuseable washable fabric dust bags that need shaken out or machine washed to obtain the original strength of the vacuum cleaner. Many don't when either bag material types are put in the second time. That was Dyson's point in his original marketing (not with this recent complaint per se as it deals with "energy performance" results) but I feel the same can be applied to any dust bag - IN MY EXPERIENCE, there hasn't really been one on the market that maintains full suction from the moment it is taken out of the packaging and inserted into the vacuum cleaner because it progressively clogs and reduces the suction. There are SOME bags of course that maintain suction longer in terms of longevity but as we have proved so many other times before in this forum, suction isn't just the only principle that maintains air flow and as you know Miele, Sebo and Bosch have generally excellent sealed suction systems to counteract leaky air/dust emissions and at the same time, protect the bag on board as well as prolonging the suction due to the high filtration and bag structure.

I use the same Miele bags as you Venson - once they get full, there's little suction left over at the lowest power rating I prefer - if I want the dust to be picked up - the vacuum's suction has to be increased to pick up. Why should that be the case? Obviously the vacuum needs more power to let the suction pad the bag with dust! The Dyson cyclonic action minimises that - I've used Dyson vacuums where the bins are bursting out with dust in the cleaning jobs I've done (before I offered the company my Sebo DART vacuum to show them the dust disposal and far cleaner approach - company responded with buying two Darts and a Henry bagged canister vacuum.) whilst still using the Dyson when bags start to run out because of the suction principle that just keeps going - regardless of whether the bin is full or not.

You refer to bagless vacuums as if they all have the same capacity - but not all brands do - and it's a point that UK consumers still go over when buying a vacuum cleaner - bag capacity/bin capacity is still a major factor when it comes to buying vacuums. The Henry tub canister wouldn't be where it is today in terms of popularity - if it didn't have a large bag capacity (generally 7 litres, or in my case 4 to 5 months of general household traffic dust excluding any DIY work that clogs the bags quicker.) whilst the washable fabric shake out bags are used by many in the commercial industry who have to deal with shaking the dust out - let them do it  - I prefer disposable bags because it is cleaner, even though in the back of my mind I know that I'd be spending more money on bags than I would do with any Dyson or the TTI Hoover/Vax/Dirt Devil suction that has been copied from Dyson DualCyclone parts.

As you and I will know, Miele do not recommend using the same bag twice. I ran out of Miele bags for my S140 stick vac (which is being used by my mum) yesterday. I sucked all the dust out of the bag with my Sebo Felix  - there is still suction available from the IntensiveClean bag, but it wasn't as strong as it first was when it was brand new. The HyClean bags aren't any better - infact they seem to provide as much action as sucking through a straw when the vacuum's bag is fully packed with dust AND the vacuum's suction control is lowered to the lowest setting. This occurs on both my old S571, S381 and more recently the Ecoline S4212. It is no different to my SEBO vacuums either when the bags fill up and need to be replaced because the suction is slowly running out due to a clogged bag.

Whilst I agree that Dyson is being sensitive to what brands are advertising, they are simply trying to keep ahead of the game, but the way they have approached and raised the issue is rather vague in my mind and uncalled for. I guess that's just what happens in business but I'm with many who agree that their approaches are underhand for the most part and who ever gave Dyson the right to constantly appear superior? Again I feel this is just what happens in Business.

Bosch haven't done their homework in their own advertising either. When they released that vacuum cleaner on the market, they claim that the motor on board maintains the same power as a full 2100/2400 watt motor. It seems the ad didn't have that particular wording to provide evidence to the original statement of "...50% less energy to maintain performance..." Would that, for example be with the variable suction control being used or relation to the dust bag, or both, or something relating to the motor that Bosch have actually fitted?

And its not as if Bosch are unique in using the eco-marketing consumer grabbing headline that by fitting a lower energy motor to maximise performance, their model is any better than the rest, or as efficient. Electrolux, Hoover and all the major brands including Miele have all done it. In my experience, vacuums that have lower than 3000 watts will never really affect electric bills. I've tried by looking at my own and there is no real difference to using a higher powered vacuum against a lower one where my actual electricity usages are concerned. Just because a vacuum may throw a trip switch or if the electricity load is too high, doesn't point to higher electricity usage charges - and a lot of owners seem to get confused with that a lot of the time. It points more to the actual electricity the whole home is using including the room in question where the vacuum has been plugged into - if it already uses a high source of electricity per room, the vacuum may well overload the system.



I only know of a few people who recycle vacuum bags and I never heard of Dyson's using that as a sales campaign pitch point.  As well, for good or ill, disposable bags in the U.S. were definitely intended to be used once and then tossed.  They are a great convenience of course but disposable bags also appear to be and have been the vac industry's way of maintaining connection with end-users -- and their money. (Forgive me, I've been reading Noam Chomsky.'s Manufacturing Consent.) Due to replacement likelihood, disposable bags -- replaceable belts and two types of required filters -- generate far more continuing revenue than replacements for permanent bags.

As far as I'm concerned, suction level debates often makes mountains out of mole hills.  I do not claim that bagged machine suction does not lessen somewhat, say from week one's insertion of a fresh bag to week four when the bag is nearly full, but I strongly state that available suction in better models is satisfactory for the same tasks all along that period of time.  As for power consumption levels, I live in an old building that has my aprtments two circuit breakers down in the basement and the only access is through my landlord's office.  Trip a breaker on a Sunday or a holiday when he's not around and you have to wait 'til Monday to get it switched on again.  Thus no ironing or vacuuming with an air conditioner on, etc.  That in mind, I use the Miele(s) using several speeds and have no problems.  I do this sometimes as compromise to avoid consumption related problems and sometimes because the work at hand calls for it.  Speed switched all the way down, I can clean really light scatter rugs using the power nozzle to effect a better clean with les effort, switched all the way up I can zip over bare flooring and stairs very quickly.

As well, I have only had two vacs that had automatic power adjustment but liked both very much.  The Hoover Dimension canister that I owned started up at about mid-speed when set on "automatic" and only increased if it sensed a build up of dust in the bag or if there was a particular concentration in the area that I was cleaning.  Made perfect sense to me and was my idea of useful as far as energy efficieny was concerned.  Come to think of it, it was one of the most sensible vacs Hoover ever made.  Can't figure out why they stopped putting it or something like out.

Bagless vacuums still do not generally offer collection capacity for continuous cleaning as genrous as many bagged vacuums and require more work to keep them running properly.  I open the bag chamber of my bagged vacuum and everything I need to see (bag and pre-filter) are right there.  If the look of  the pre-filter doesn't please my eye I can change it without a lot of fuss and the bag's a breeze to replace.  My idea of heaven.  My other vision of Heaven is merely to be in that wonderful position of having just enough.  Therefore, if I have just enough suction to everyday get work done efficiently and quickly, I'm happy and hopefully duly grateful.

Last but not least, a very large part of vacuum cleaner advertising claims rely on malarkey.  I have seen this occur with generations of American vacs of all brands.  I don't think we need special agencies to protect us from madness in the vac makers' conference rooms as much as we need consumers to apply a little common sense.

Venson

vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #26   Dec 13, 2010 3:40 pm
Venson wrote:
I only know of a few people who recycle vacuum bags and I never heard of Dyson's using that as a sales campaign pitch point. 

As well, I have only had two vacs that had automatic power adjustment but liked both very much.  The Hoover Dimension canister that I owned started up at about mid-speed when set on "automatic" and only increased if it sensed a build up of dust in the bag or if there was a particular concentration in the area that I was cleaning.  Made perfect sense to me and was my idea of useful as far as energy efficieny was concerned.  Come to think of it, it was one of the most sensible vacs Hoover ever made.  Can't figure out why they stopped putting it or something like out.

Bagless vacuums still do not generally offer collection capacity for continuous cleaning as genrous as many bagged vacuums and require more work to keep them running properly.  I open the bag chamber of my bagged vacuum and everything I need to see (bag and pre-filter) are right there.  If the look of  the pre-filter doesn't please my eye I can change it without a lot of fuss and the bag's a breeze to replace.  My idea of heaven.  My other vision of Heaven is merely to be in that wonderful position of having just enough.  Therefore, if I have just enough suction to everyday get work done efficiently and quickly, I'm happy and hopefully duly grateful.

Venson


The clogged bag was the mantra in which Dyson felt that as a consumer, he, himself and whoever used the 'second hand Hoover Junior with the reuseable paper dust bag," was a bit of a con when it clogged the moment it was put back in after shaking out. This is documented in his book as well as the endless advertising/commercials when Dyson first entered the market. It is a point that he has never let Hoover get away with, even now.

See the story if you wish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4jpQGV_1Hw&feature=related (also note the still image of his old Hoover Junior fashioned with a cyclone chamber on top of the motor hood!)

Automatic suction sensoring is something Hoover UK also dabbled with the 1980's and 1990's with its "Autosense" feature. Whilst it did the same thing of supposedly "sensing" the amount of dust the vacuum was asked to clean, the mechanics were not very reliable and Hoover had marketed the feature as being energy saving even though for the most part the vacuums that had this feature fitted kept going onto the highest level of power rather than the lowest. What made matters worse was that Hoover had fitted a selectable suction control for the owners to choose, only for the Hoover itself to decide what the suction setting was, regardless of what the owner tried to manually input. Autosense isn't a feature that has been included on Hoover's latest products nowadays. It was also a feature that cost a lot to repair and really didn't do much in terms of its actual use on board their uprights. Panasonic also did this with a lot of their uprights but the sensors often ignored the lower bands of selective power and constantly made the vacuums difficult to steer with the full force of fixed suction at the top.

Rather than try and offer up capacities of a bagless Dyson against the larger dust bag from a Miele, I suggest that you get a Dyson, Venson and a full bag from your Miele. Suck out all the dust from the bag, cut the bag in half and also suck out the dust that has clogged the multi filters of the HyClean and watch as the Dyson bin fills up with still more capacity to take - the cyclonic action always pushes the dirt around and down towards the base of the bin. I was surprised to find that my little Vax Mach Air with its 1.5 litre capacity could take twice the amount of dust from a Miele bag before it needed to be emptied - viewable from the bin and also going over the max full decal with space above for more dust! Granted the pre motor filter is different on MANY bagless vacuums, but most in Dyson's case are just under the bin. For the fact that those filters are washable, it does in theory provide some substance that they are just as efficient as the Miele white filters that go behind the bag - which according to Miele aren't washable (I've washed mine!). I think you'd be surprised to find that Dyson vacuums and other bagless brands can take far more dust "in one go" against their known capacities - same as paper dust bags in other brands. My SEBO X bags for example has 5.5 litres by stats but there's been times when it's been left in the machine, dust is nearly coming out the top and the red light on the machine has yet to come on to show that the bag needs emptied!
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #27   Dec 14, 2010 7:52 am
vacmanuk wrote:
....Rather than try and offer up capacities of a bagless Dyson against the larger dust bag from a Miele, I suggest that you get a Dyson, Venson and a full bag from your Miele. Suck out all the dust from the bag, cut the bag in half and also suck out the dust that has clogged the multi filters of the HyClean and watch as the Dyson bin fills up with still more capacity to take - the cyclonic action always pushes the dirt around and down towards the base of the bin.

If I may add my 2 cents, Venson when you do the comparison use your MIELE S7 upright with 6.76 qt dirt bag capacity [if Vacmanuk is referring to a dyson upright dirt bin capacity] rather than your S5 MIELE cann with 4.76 qt dirt capacity.    Might suggest Vacmanuk you do the same and let us know the results.   

Carmine  D.

vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #28   Dec 14, 2010 11:08 am
CarmineD wrote:
If I may add my 2 cents, Venson when you do the comparison use your MIELE S7 upright with 6.76 qt dirt bag capacity [if Vacmanuk is referring to a dyson upright dirt bin capacity] rather than your S5 MIELE cann with 4.76 qt dirt capacity.    Might suggest Vacmanuk you do the same and let us know the results.   

Carmine  D.


I think I'll try it with my SEBO X since I don't have the S7, Carmine.
Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #29   Dec 14, 2010 11:12 am
CarmineD wrote:
If I may add my 2 cents, Venson when you do the comparison use your MIELE S7 upright with 6.76 qt dirt bag capacity [if Vacmanuk is referring to a dyson upright dirt bin capacity] rather than your S5 MIELE cann with 4.76 qt dirt capacity.    Might suggest Vacmanuk you do the same and let us know the results.   

Carmine  D.



Hi guys,

Opinions are always welcome but I don't see myself making such tests in the near future.  The only only Dyson so far that made an impression on me was the DC28. The suction's nice and it cleans well plus is user adjustable for carpet height.   And guess what?  It's not a ball model that, according to Dyson at least, the world can't live without.  Fancy that.

However, no matter the model, I hate the attachment set-up.   Just a few days back, I had opportunity to handle the DC33 that seems to be drawing interest from some shoppers by way of pricing but was first, taken aback by its flimsy feel and second, "bitten" again while try to get the hose and wand assembly in back in place after removing them to check out the suction.  That also proved a waste.  Serves me right for not knowing better.

The "those nasty old clogged up bags" campaign has been with us for years and so has the malarkey.  Rexair -- now Rainbow -- for one, was supposed to have solved the problem by tossing the idea of contained cyclones to the wind (is that a pun) AND  bags also by giving us a monsoon in a can.  "Wet dust cannot fly."  You didn't have to buy bags but you did get to tote around the weight equivalent of a large, filled mop bucket as you cleaned.  And to what avail?  They had to and still have to be emptied and refilled during cleaning sessions to keep dust collection at its best.  They did not capture all the dust they claimed and in later years, without the least of a sheepish look in regard to how the company had long swore by its claims that the water batch captured everything, began to slap on HEPA filters.  Bottom line, cleaning was satisfactory and filtering tolerable but the the trade off for water instead of a bag simply led to a lot of work.  A lot of bright ideas in the vacuum industry have proved interesting science as well but lead to more work than I'm prepared to deal with at present.

I am not as concerned over how much Dyson or bagless vacs in general can pick as I am over maintenance issues.  My bagged machines, so far, free me up from extra work and put forth little need for serious attention on my part over the long run save for reasonable care and use.  Oddly enough I was asked the advantage of bagless as opposed to bagged and the best answer I could give is that it all depends upon what the user is prepared to deal with.  A regular maintenance regimen to keep a bagless machine performing its best and thus make the payoff for not having to buy bags count or shouldering the responsibility of paying a required amount for disposable vacuum bags and filters in the name of convenience and less work.

It would seem, at least to me, that a so-called advantage would mean that which lessens problems as opposed to increasing them.  If Dyson owners can continually run their machines when dirts past the fill line in the bin and still have them over the long without a lot of trips to repair shops, good for them.  It's me who sees no advantage.

Venson

This message was modified Dec 14, 2010 by Venson
vacmanuk


Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #30   Dec 14, 2010 11:40 am
Venson wrote:
I am not as concerned over how much Dyson or bagless vacs in general can pick as I am over maintenance issues.  My bagged machines, so far, free me up from extra work and put forth little need for serious attention on my part over the long run save for reasonable care and use.  Oddly enough I was asked the advantage of bagless as opposed to bagged and the best answer I could give is that it all depends upon what the user is prepared to deal with.  A regular maintenance regimen to keep a bagless machine performing its best and thus make the payoff for not having to buy bags count or shouldering the responsibility of paying a required amount for disposable vacuum bags and filters in the name of convenience and less work.

It would seem, at least to me, that a so-called advantage would mean that which lessens problems as opposed to increasing them.  If Dyson owners can continually run their machines when dirts past the fill line in the bin and still have them over the long without a lot of trips to repair shops, good for them.  It's me who sees no advantage.

Venson


Good points Venson.

I guess the proof is in the pudding. As owners, we can only testify through our own experiences what the good and bad points are, largely boosted and promoted by what we feel we can put up with rather than true design points that actually alleviate one aspect or another or in real time testing that has a neutral line. I prefer bags but the reason I bought a bagless vacuum was purely because I was wasting the expensive bags on picking up paper shreddings from my large office shredder as well as handy for new carpets that waste a lot of dust bags with top soil carpet fluff. I'm also annoyed that Miele's super air clean filters only last 4 bags duration before needing to be replaced, regardless of whether they come in a box of every 4 bags bought.
Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #31   Dec 14, 2010 12:17 pm
vacmanuk wrote:
Good points Venson.

I guess the proof is in the pudding. As owners, we can only testify through our own experiences what the good and bad points are, largely boosted and promoted by what we feel we can put up with rather than true design points that actually alleviate one aspect or another or in real time testing that has a neutral line. I prefer bags but the reason I bought a bagless vacuum was purely because I was wasting the expensive bags on picking up paper shreddings from my large office shredder as well as handy for new carpets that waste a lot of dust bags with top soil carpet fluff. I'm also annoyed that Miele's super air clean filters only last 4 bags duration before needing to be replaced, regardless of whether they come in a box of every 4 bags bought.



You're very lucky.  Most households have and can only afford one vacuum and rely on it for all related tasks.  Miele loses points by way of its pricing in general and there'll never be a way that it will convince me that the cost of manufacture and shipping of bags from wherever they're made amounts any where near the $19.00 and change (before sales tax) that's being asked here.  I seldom spend that much on a shirt.

But that's the way of the world I guess.  Can you believe that smokers here in New York now actually pay $7.00 to $10.00 per pack for cigarettes?  You'd think they'd quit but they don't.  They may groan a bit about it but in the end they meet the price and keep puffing.  I can't say that the increasing cost of an addiction makes a good comparison but I assume Miele expects somewhat the same result once its hooked a sale.  "You went out and bought the thing so what are you gonna do?"

The only way that will change is when and if other manufacturers start offering better deals.

Venson

CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #32   Dec 14, 2010 12:53 pm
vacmanuk wrote:
I think I'll try it with my SEBO X since I don't have the S7, Carmine.



Not for my benefit.  I'm with Venson on the dirt bag/bin capacities.  I was suggesting that any comparison of dirt containment capacity be like kind.  Cann bag to cann dirt bin.  Up bag to up dirt bin.  For parity.  Using straight suction to vacuum up a bag's contents is not the same as using the vacuum itself to pick up the same contents itself.  By letting the first vacuum do all the work, and letting the second merely straight suction up, is a lot easier on the second vacuum than the first vacuum.  Plus you can NEVER straight suction the imbedded dirt in the pores of the filter bag into the bin by straight suction alone.  Try it.  Then shake the vacuumed bag and see what comes out.  More fine dirt and dust that is bonded to the bag's filter and air pores.  If it were as easy as straight suctioning the used bag, then a case could be made for reusing the bag.  But it's not.  Why?  Dump the bag.  Suction clean.  Still have pores in the bag filled with fine dust and dirt.  Which degrades and comprises the filtering and air pass through of the bag to keep the motor cool anmd suction at peak performance.  If you have some old HOOVER upright reusable paper bags [from the models 60, 61, and 62] note the heavier density of the paper vice the disposable paper bags. 

Carmine D.

Lucky1


Joined: Jan 2, 2008
Points: 271

Re: Incredible new Bosch vacuums.
Reply #33   Dec 15, 2010 1:25 pm
Venson wrote:
  As well, for good or ill, disposable bags in the U.S. were definitely intended to be used once and then tossed.  They are a great convenience of course but disposable bags also appear to be and have been the vac industry's way of maintaining connection with end-users -- and their money. (Forgive me, I've been reading Noam Chomsky.'s Manufacturing Consent.) Due to replacement likelihood, disposable bags -- replaceable belts and two types of required filters -- generate far more continuing revenue than replacements for permanent bags.

I've heard this over & over and even heard that from Oreck to get dealers to buy into their system, yet, I see little evidence that this this where dealers make the real money. So far in this business I need Vac Sales, Repairs, Parts and consumables to survive.

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