Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Story here:  http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/40463852.html

It sounds like Oreck's lawsuit was a little ill-thought out!

Model2 wrote:

The rule of law is clear: Res Adjudicata, if my latin is correct.  I don't know the dates involved for all the cases against dyson that apply to the false/exaggerated claim: Never clogs, never loses suction.  Perhaps there is some overlap.  I understand ORECK was also one of the 3 dozen complainants who filed with the ASA in the UK against dyson over the claim.  Perhaps, ORECK was hoping for a lone "legal" victory against dyson after the favorable decision gained by the suers against dyson with the ASA.

Don't know the terms of the ORECK 1 [Feb 2007] settlement.  Dyson vacuum products, save perhaps on its own Web Site with IEC tests annotated, don't use this claim in any sales advertisements by retailers.  And, the dyson claim has been cospicuously absent for quite awhile. 

Carmine D.

As of March 2009, Dyson continue to use the slogans, 'the cleaner that doesn't lose suction', and 'others clog - ours don't' in their current range of promotional and advertising materials in the UK.

Model2 wrote:

Would that be the dyson UK Web SIte and/or dyson product literature?  Or, is this pervasive of all dyson advertisements which include retailers of dysons?  Also, does dyson annotate/footnote with IEC tests as proof?

I excerpted the below from dyson's Home page in the USA which mirrors its own product literature more or less.  Conspicuously absent, unless buried elsewhere, is the "Never clogs" claim.  This claim was part of the class action filing with the ASA.  The clogging according to the dyson complainants resulted in loss of suction.  ASA sustained the complainants, if my memory serves me correctly. 

"Dyson proves no loss of suction using the IEC 60312 Cl 2.9 test standard on uprights and canister
vacuums and using a test method based on the IEC 60312 Cl 2.9 standard for the handheld.

Dyson proves no loss of suction, best average pick up, and 'overall outcleans other vacuums' using results from
IEC 60312 Cl 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.8, 2.9, ASTM F608 and F558, and DTM 755— an independently conducted Dyson test."

It is my gut opinion that vacuum manufacturers are given some "puffing" latitude for their claims with their own products and advertisements.  Short of lying.  But not when their products are advertised by others and/or in a line up with other brand industry products.

PS:  Would someone, anyone, explain the claim:  "best average pick up?"  Sounds impressive but the exact/correct meaning fails me.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi,

I'm confused too. If it's a typo and was meant to have been "best pick up average" versus other brands that would not be true. If it is meant to imply that Dyson is best out of x-number of machines for getting up an average amount/type of litter and dirt, I'd also deem that not necessarily on point.

Venson

CarmineD wrote:
I would take it to mean (and this is just my opinion) that after all the IEC and ASTM tests are done and combined that the Dyson cleaned the best over all tested categories.  Without knowing what all the tests were however, it all comes down to just another marketing line.

Dusty

Thanks for the thoughts.

It's clear that whatever the terms of the ORECK 1 settlement in Feb 2007 the result is that the once well defined slogan "Never clogs, never loses suction" has been replaced by a verbose ambiguous dissertation about tests and results.  Hard to hold any feet to the fire over words that have multiple meanings depending on who's interpreting. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote: Do you mean like the ads that claim to clean 50% better than Dyson that were lies?

CarmineD wrote:

The slogan 'others clog - ours don't' is featured in a Dyson promotional leaflets for their current UK upright and canister range. The leaflet for Dyson's DC16 uses the slogan 'The only handheld that doesn't lose suction'

The slogan 'the cleaner that doesn't lose suction' is featured both in Dyson promotional material, and also the current Spring/Summer 2009 catalogue from major UK retailer Argos.

The current Winter 08/09 floorcare catalogue for Currys, another major appliance, electronics and white goods retailer contains several similar statements:

'A Dyson vacuum cleaner uses Root Cyclone technology to spin dirt from the airflow. That's why a Dyson vacuum cleaner never loses suction.'

And:

'Root Cyclone technology separates the dirt from the air by centrifugal force, collecting it in a bin. Because it does not rely on a filter, suction remains constant room after room.'

None of these slogans are followed with references to any test results. I cite the Argos and Currys brochures as examples because I happen to have both of them to hand as I'm writing this. The website for electrical retailer Comet also features the slogan 'the cleaner that doesn't lose suction'  in its Dyson section, as well as the claim 'A Dyson cleaner spins the dirt out of the airflow at high speed, so nothing gets clogged. Which means it doesn't lose suction':    http://www.comet.co.uk/shopcomet/advice/080/Dyson-Guide

It should be noted that Vax, another major UK brand, are now making very similar claims for their own cleaners. From Currys floorcare brochure:

'Multi-cyclonic technology provides better separation of dust particles from the airflow, maintaining suction for longer. Cleans as well as the first time, every time.'

Cleaners from Vax's Mach range all bear the words, 'No loss of suction'

I can't help you Dysons, 'the best average pickup' claim; that's not in use over here!

Clearly, dyson is given more latitude among its sales venues in the UK than here in the USA.  Perhaps, due to the ORECK 1 settlement?  Maybe.

I'm not sure what test can be used to document and prove NEVER clogging. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

No, I don't.  I'm speaking strictly about dyson as you know.  Based on the total mass of industry data in the public arena, it is safe to say that dyson vacuums are not known for their besting others [even $50 Dirt Devil uprights] in rug cleaning and grooming let alone doing so in written advertised claims.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Has not Oreck made themselves out to be an enemy to Dyson?  Oreck has made a second career out of attacking the Dyson vacuum (in their infomercials, etc), attacking Dyson’s marketing and suing Dyson.  If Oreck spent more time on themselves, paying their bills on time, keeping up a good credit history, not having to sell their financial souls to outside investors, inventing, creating new and needed markets, being first to market, etc.,- they would not need to sue (so badly) and write creative claims of their vacuum's wonders and their leading edge engineering that cannot be proven as true.


DIB

I offer no comment on your opinions of ORECK, other than to say I am pleased with mine and it performs exactly as I want and expect.  I do seem to recall that ORECK and HOOVER too [if memory serves me correctly] joined with the 30 plus others, who characterized themselves as disgruntled dyson owners and users, who filed against dyson with the ASA in the UK.  I doubt these customers and buyers of dysons had any motives for bringing dyson up against the ASA other than fairness and truth in dyson's product claims.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

It shouldn't be difficult to find 30 consumers who disliked any product ever sold.

Exactly when does Dyson lose suction?

CarmineD wrote:
My opinions? - No.  Recorded history? - Yes.  I merely organized this history into a few sentences.

Glad you enjoy your Oreck.  Your Oreck and today's current line of Oreck’s prove out that for most manufacturers, [major] innovation is impossible.

DIB

Some, maybe more, like the classics and buy them for that reason.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Not just 30 plus consumers who dislike their products after they purchased but went a step further.  They took issue with dyson's product claims and took dyson before the ASA for them.  I can't recall another vacuum brand in recent years that had that happen either here with the FTC or in the UK with ASA save your fave brand. 

Dyson vacuums, like all bagless vacuum products, lose suction when their filters clog.   That was the crux of the disgruntled dyson customers' filing with the ASA in the UK.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You apparently have never heard of a class action law suit.  No reason for other vacuum makers to be sued.  They have no technology to infringe on.  Who wants to sue for advertising such as:  "SAME ANTIQUATED TECHNOLOGY AS ALL OUR PREVIOUS ONES" or  "STILL CHOKES AND LOSES SUCTION AFTER A FEW MINUTES USE" or  "WE ONLY CHANGED THE SKU NUMBER SO YOU DUMMIES WOULD BUY IT".  My favorites:  "SOLD ONLY BY INDEPENDENTS SO YOU CAN ALSO GET SCREWED ON REPAIRS" or "OUR VACUUMS DON'T PERFORM, HOWEVER WE GIVE YOU A GIFT TO OFFSET ITS POOR PERFORMANCE".

Dyson should add:  IDIOTS DO NOT TRY THIS VACUUM AT HOME.  Would you drive a car forever and never change filters?

 "Never clogs, never loses suction" is addressed by the wisdom stated in never say never.  Never means never.  It "doesn't" mean: If you clean the filters every 2 months.  And if it did, dyson should have said so, as it does now.

Carmine D. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Does the maker claim that to be lifetime? 

Carmine D.

Every vacuum has decreased cleaning power over time. Suction is just one necessary element of effective cleaning. Whether or not it degrades over use is not really relevant as long as the vacuum being used has sufficient cleaning power to remove whatever dirt is present in the rug or carpet.

Compare a Dyson to a Sanitaire upright, for example, on a medium grade plush. The bag in the Sanitaire will clog eventually, but how long will it maintain its sand and dirt removing ability? Long enough to remove a lot of sand and dirt. It also depends on the condition of the belt and the brush as well as the bag, none of which are hard to change. But with reasonable maintenance, the Sanitiare will still be doing an excellent job of thoroughly cleaning rugs and carpets long after the Dyson has gasped it last.

Canisters and central vacs suffer loss of cleaning power due to the abrasion of the insides of their hoses, something even many vacuum professionals overlook. When the vacuum cleaner was respected as a machine that significantly reduced household labor and prolonged the life and appearance of rugs and furnishings, the prospect of a new hose and cloth bag every 5 years or so was considered a reasonable expense. Now, the vacuum cleaner is scorned and treated as a used disposable diaper. I don't think the current state of the vacuum industry is all the manufacturers fault. Much of the blame lies with the consumer who wants a shiny new bagless vacuum, and will fork over $150.00 as frequently as every six months in some cases. Perusing the vacuum aisle at Wal-Mart, there were two vacuums above $150.00, the Dyson 07, and the bagged Hoover Platinum set, which was the only bagged vacuum on the shelves that day. Not one canister, save the portable boxed with the Platinum upright.

The irony of the entire Dyson controversy is that Dyson created and marketed his line of vacuums to the worst possible audience, the lazy and careless:

1) No bags "I don't have to remember to buy them"

2) No belts "I never have to change them"

3) No clogging " I can suck up whatever is on the floor without stopping to pick it up"

4) On-board tools "I don't have to drag them out, or remember where I put them.

5) Automatic height adjustment " I don't have to be concerned about the correct setting"

6) Filters? "What filters?"

Satisfied Dyson users are without exception fastidious people who take extraordinarily good care of their household equipment. And, for the the most part, unhappy Dyson owners belong to that group of people who just don't understand the subtle distinction between their vacuum and a backhoe.

7) Read the manual? "You are joking, right?"

Trebor

"Satisfied Dyson users are without exception fastidious people who take extraordinarily good care of their household equipment. "  Trebor

Agree. 

Ironically, this category of vacuum customers generally shop/buy at their local independent vacuum stores and not big box retailers, which is dyson's primary sales venue.  Complicating the picture is that many of the big box retailers are struggling to stay afloat and some maybe more won't.  They are and will go belly up.   

James can change course.  Reinvent himself/his business, as they say now, in the current hard times.  Also of note is that Malaysia, the dyson country of origin, is broken economically and politically.  James, if he's the smart inventor and business man that many here claim, is thinking seriously about surviving and prospering in the future.  Expecially with the current worldwide recession looking more and more like it will be long and protracted.  The latter is called a depression.   Whether that's with a capital "D" or a small "d" is still uncertain.  Time will tell.

Carmine D.

J.C. Penney newly adds an Exclusive line of ORECK uprights and giveaways to its venue of vacuum cleaners. 

http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/SearchDepartment.aspx?SearchString=vacuums&JSEnabled=false&mscssid=&submit+search.x=13&submit+search.y=12

Note too that these new ORECK uprights are available in the stores, not just on line as are most of the vacuums at J.C. Penney.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
New in stores and already discounted by 25%.  NOT A GOOD SIGN.

CarmineD wrote:
I'd like to see Oreck win the "Oreck v. TTI - who produces the better Oreck vacuum?  Since Oreck is the lessor of 2 evils (TTI the other), I'd like to see Oreck survive, employ/keep employing Americans (legal) workers and contribute to our economy.  But!... Avocado green vacuums?...  Why?  Oreck is unwilling to build good looking products.  I am not a designer but look at the Oreck handle and Radio Shack-like rocker switch, it’s awful.  Most try to conceal the mounting screws... not Oreck.  Their portable vac looks like a shoebox.  I'm embarrassed for them.  Based on price and styling alone, Oreck and their employees may "pay" for these choices...  lost revenues = lost jobs.


DIB

Here is a pic of a [JC Penney] Oreck handle vs. a TTI handle.

The standard ORECK upright model [XL Classic] offers the tried and true industry standard handle grip.   The deluxe ORECK models offer the "Helping Hand Handle," exclusive to ORECK, which lets users operate the vacuum without clenching their hands or straining their wrists.  It is ergonomically designed to relieve the stress and strain on wrists, arm, and elbows.  And, has earned ORECK the Arthritis Foundation Ease-of-Use Commendation. 

As an regula ORECK user, I prefer the switch on the handle grip.  As opposed to the standard industry ORECK grip which has the power switch on the vacuum [see my review of the ORECK XL Classic in the reviews section of this page].

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Fortunately, the buyers and Execs for J.C Penney do not share your views and like the ORECK features and vacuums enough to offer them to their store/internet customers.  I trust their experience and judgement over yours.

Carmine D.

J.C. Penney reported annual profit for the year ended Dec. 31, 2008, of $567 MILLION dollars.  It's current stock price is $25 plus with a 52 week high of $45.  Penney's also reported better than expected sales results for the first quarter 2009 ended March 31, 2009.  See its news releases for Q1 results dated April 9, 2009.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
What do you think the suits were motivated by mostly?...

1. Oreck’s inability to come close to matching TTI’s patented technologies, features, styling and price?  or...
2. The exclusive to JC Penney Avocado Green?  or...
3. Oreck’s brand name, margins and advertising budget?  or...
4. Other reasons?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB,

You must have been just a toddler back in the '70s when "flower power" hit. All manner of vacuum brands, including Hoover, were sporting all sorts of wild prints on outer bags and flower decals on canisters. Shetland-Lewyt being the worst offender.

As well, instead of the new use of black and brushed stainless steel "high-tech" finishes for large appliances, avocado and "copper" were all the rage back in the day. This is just a color recycle that will be used for now, forgotten and thought of again somewhere down the line. You should also note that Electrolux AB's new line of cleaners are using bright lime green.

My S7 has a wonderful metallic cherry red finish. I like it so much that it's taking all I can do not to have the car painted to match.

Venson

Venson wrote:
Venson,
I like most any color era, as long as it is applied to something new.  The Oreck is mechanically old and the retro Avocado look reinforces this.

Millions undoubtedly have viewed Dyson’s Ball commercial - where he uses old (1970's) film illustrating the the old vacuum look and how we used em.  Why would Oreck and JC Penney’s introduce a product that looks old and that Dyson demonstrates to many as old?


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB,

"No brainer" design has a large audience. You have overlooked that everyone may not be ready for or in want of the "new" and may actually be put off by things they see as to modern. In this day and age I know a truckload of adults that still aren't ready for computers yet.

Here we are in the 21st century and things haven't changed much save for paths of thought. Lots of radical redesigns for this century were foretold since way back but thank God we're not all parading around in the spandex suits the Jetsons wore. Ultrasonic dishwashers are still basically a nice idea for the future and even Segways are considered way cool but I know no one who owns one.

Many everyday shoppers are highly influenced by familiarity by reason of the sense of security (well-founded or not)it renders, by perceptions that an item that resembles or is the same brand as the last one they owned may be just as good or that the item resembles by look or type what other friends or family use and found satisfactory. (If it's good enough for Mom, it's good enough for me.)

Besides which, Oreck is a company with a "name" and names can get away with a lot more than newbies can. Other vacuums like Kirby, Rainbow, Filter Queen, etc., that have been around for years don't actually change all that much but continue to sell. Why? Because there are people who actually prefer them and who won't be sold anything else for all the tea in China.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

The GM Segway vehicle rickshaw showed off at the NY Auto Show last week is the latest in whimsical show-mobiles.  Shows that the traditional big 3 car makers can think outside the box.  But they have little connection to what consumers will see coming to the showrooms in 2, 5, 10 years from now.

Big car makers have learned that it takes as long as 10 years to get significant new technology ready for mass market deployment.  Why?  Cost.  So what do they do?  Incremental improvement.  Less expensive.

Most cars can get 10-15 percent better fuel mileage improvement for an additional $500 per vehicle.  Vice a hybrid fuel efficient model that can cost  $3000-$5000 more per model.   At $2 a gallon, demand for the higher mileage high priced hybrids is waning by US car buyers.  A big worry for car makers who invested billions in hybrids.

Carmine D.

I suspect the same for cars applies to vacuums and vacuum buyers. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Get real DIB.  Money.  Bet the winner and take home the profits with increased sales and customers.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

The ORECK difference is that all the new ORECK prices are similarly discounted across all retail venues.  Thus, the ORECK prices that consumers pay are always the same regardless of the ORECK retailers.  An advantage of the ORECK business model.  Vacuum makers using big box retail store venues oftentimes have the retailers undercutting their MSRP and MAP to move the vacuum products.  Often at the expense of the products' price integrity and the independent vacuum store owners/operators who carry the brands/models and can't compete with the big box store prices. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hiya Carmine,

How's it going? Point well taken but I think in this specific case we need a change right now and for such reason we might be best served to carry a grudge for a while. The next gas crunch could be around the corner. Purely my feeling but big business always has some ploy to lay a case against change or more appropriate pricing on.

It's best to keep pushing for more highly fuel-efficient/low emission cars. They are much needed as a large part of the rest of the world wants what we want too -- a certain amount of convenience. An increase of "convenience" may prove hard for the planet to bear if everybody else becomes able to follow suit. For the time being war, disease and famine elsewhere have spared us much worry over our lot. Yet, as of late, we're being shown how close we are to the edge.

Personally, I have no big stake in conservation or concern over Earth's ecosystem. When I'm gone -- I'll be gone. However, there are those with children and grand children who should think about what they are leaving behind. One's legacy is more than what he leaves in the bank. Money won't always be able to buy better air.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

I agree with a huge caveat.  Like the Beatle's Song:  It's getting better all the time.  The internal gas combustion engine is improving [tho incrementally] and is now leaps and bounds over its early days design and function.  It will be the mainstay of the auto industry for decades to come despite the hybrids.  Like the direct path suction upright.  Here forever.  Sanitaire, KIRBY, ORECK ......................

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

Yeah, but look what happened to John Lennon . . .

I'd still like to see more forward movement toward alternative fuels whether man-produced or solar electricity or natural like ethanol and recycled cooking oil. Whatever works is fine by me and even better if it is minimally disruptive or destructive in regard to the environment. Oil's okay by me too but I should like to begin to feel no need to worry over hindrance from whoever has a hand on the valves in the oil fields. All we have to do is start thinking and acting before the well runs dry.

Our problem here is that we are so used to simple luxury -- many of which the most simple, to the rest of the world, are just sweet dreams. We forget that the things we receive are not promised or ours by right but are purely blessings for which we have no guarantee. Unfortunately, that idea doesn't come to mind until we're lined up in our cars because of fuel rationing or facing exorbitant prices. I think it's better to bolster up the house BEFORE the inevitable storm than afterward.

As for vacuums, there are some plain and design ideas that will remain around and giving good service a long time as well. Not everybody feels the need or want for the latest doo-dads. By the way, it just occurred to me that the Air-Rider canister is officially dead. True?

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

You should run for national office!  I'd campaign and vote for you.

WRT the Air Rider, I hadn't officially heard of its demise.  But, in the current economic environment, I'm not the least surprised.  More will go from niche to naught.  Why?  Consumers are "trading down" in the current hard times.  As a result, they acquire frugal spending habits that last long after the good days return.  It's a double whammy for high priced niche consumer goods, like the Air Rider.

Carmine D.

Look close when watching this Video... What do you see "read" on the canister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr-aT8sYNN8

Hello Acerone:

Hard to miss.  Gotta love it! 

WRT rug cleaning by the Dual V.  Note the build up of dirt where the rug meets the wall/floor moldingas the user goes over with the Dual V.  The Dual V won't get that out unless and user has to get down with a hand brush and clean to do the job completely.  An upright with good edge cleaning will prevent that dirt build up in the rug and molding seam.  Like ORECK!

Carmine D.

Acerone wrote:

Talking about printed labels on vacuum canisters, I recently repaired a EUREKA BOSS Smart Vac upright for the local Church.  Plastered on the front bag compartment cover were two big bold labels:  Rated a Best Buy by Consumers' Digest.  And Outcleans dyson by 60 percent for half the money.  In hard economic times, these advertising labels sell product!  People looking at a $100-$130 upright repair bill will buy a new vacuum like the EUREKA for a few dollars more.  Typically the EUREKA BOSS Smart Vac upright sells for $135-$150 at most big box retailers and while not made in the USA, it is made in Mexico, our next door neighbor. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Too bad that it takes lies to sell.

HARDSELL wrote:

Besides Consumer Digest selecting the EUREKA BOSS Smart Vac as its best vacuum year over year, Consumer Reports typically [year over year] recommends the $150 EUREKA Smart Vac upright over the more expensive uprights, dyson models in particular.  In fact, CR uses a dyson pic in its subscription literature with an admonition that spending more doesn't buy the best and shows a pic of the EUREKA for $150.

I know you didn't particularly care for the EUREKA BOSS SMART Vac, but I understand the Outreach Ministry at the Church use the EUREKA for vacuuming in the homes of the home bound/shut ins.  They were happy, according to the Pastor, and please to have it back in service. 

Carmine D.

Acerone wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
re: No Loss of Suction taken from Dyson.
More proof TTI is “stuck for an answer” when it comes to innovation (mechanical or marketing).  TTI gets it’s ideas two ways primarily...  1)  Whatever it INHERITS from the purchases of Hoover, Dirt Devil, VAX and 2) Whatever it TAKES from Dyson and others.

Hey Carmine, was there any laws broken when you through out the two goofs who were hurting a potential vacuum sale (two brothers if I remember).  How much would you of lost...  $60 or so?  And how many employees would you have to lay off?  None? One? Or Two?  Why do you cheer when a mans hard work is pilfered to the tune of [potentially] multi-millions lost and potentially hundreds of [folks w/ families] jobs lost?.  There is nothing to “love” or celebrate.  If thieves and the lazy were eliminated, the quality of life for the masses would skyrocket.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

No potential sale.  I made the sale:  Rebuilt HOOVER 29 upright with attachments for $34.95 with a one year warranty.  Another satisfied customer.  It's never about the money/profit.  It's about making the sale with the best product to meet the customer's needs and budget.  That's how you stay in business for over 40 plus years with no customer complaints.

As I recall the judge said:  If a man's home is his castle, then his business is his kingdom.  And His Honor threw the case out.  I even got my screwdriver back. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Yes, but it would sacrifice suction pick up power more than you might imagine.

Carmine D.

I guess I understand DIBs problems with Oreck..its a whole back and forth thing... Advertising will always have creative exaggeration....I think the Oreck lawsuit is about Dyson telling a flat out LIE....I think the Manual for Dyson says its doesnt CLOG, but can aquire a "blockage"..hahahaha...  Innovaion huh... Where do you have to send a Dyson to get get repaired again..I wouldnt know..I have a local Oreck dealer..And how much does it cost to ship a 25+lb vac...again  I wouldnt know..mine weighs less than 9lbs...Oh and emptying this Dyson...where does all of that dust and debris go anyway..mostly into the trash and back into the air for you to breath..Talk about innovations. I would bet that there is a Dyson vac in almost every Oreck store for comparison.....

Orecks dont have a need for much improvment over what was created many many years ago. Have they made improvement..of course the inner bags alone are now available in a cloth like material that creates better air flow accompanied with charcoal to reduce pet smells(and the seal off the dirt) . Metal fans that use to chip and shatter are now replaced with plastic that may wear down, but will not bust and get slung thru a plastic housing. the belts that people complain about..are there to prevent motor damage in case the brush gets entangled. Tell that to Hoover owners when the plastic assemble breaks that spins those front brushes( I use to have one). and im sure there are many more improvements over the years.  As far as looks go..the NEW Platnium Plus has a carbon fiber top cover. How fururistic  and innovative do they really have to get? It doesnt have to look like a spaceship or be that difficult to use...Yes ive seen the Dyson that the handle comes apart and slides thru the slinky hose just to clean the baseboard edges. Bet thats real fun to work when your trying to finish cleaning up for a dinner party or in a hurry becuase the Mother-in-law is coming over.

 They have incorporated(bought out) other companins and incorporated thier tecnologies..IE Ironman and Halo.  Oreck not only produces a high quality/high warranty vac, but also has Cleaning products, Floor polishers, Shampooers, Steamers, Air Purifiers, Heaters, and a whole commercial line/division of the company just for supplying businesses witht he tools that they need to keep thier companies clean..So is there really a queastion of what oreck spends on new technologies..They found an idea and incorrorated it..they BOUGHT it..didnt steal it or copy it..like some other manufactures.

Sry to everyone..I dont mean to go off on a tangent, but when some are misinformed/uneducated and have an extremly closed mind it tends to bring out the worst in people...

I do own an Oreck(many) and enjoy them, but I appreciate what other companies bring to the table. I generally wont slam any product over one or two bad attributes..all vacs have a negative factor here and there.. There is always a compromise..and that compromise is what connects a machine to its owner.... You dont go mud ridding in a BMW...at the same time you dont take a hugh 4wheel drive truck with 52inch tires on the Audibon either

Personall all the Nah Nahing is kinda childish, but we all like to play in the sandbox at times...lol

Tread184 wrote:
The Oreck as a mechanical device is antiquated and in the public domain.  Any manufacturer is and can continue to freely copy it exactly (save any new design patents).  What would make the Oreck dealers and assembly workers have greater job security?  Being knocked off at will by competitors or being protected by strong UTILITY patents?  Today and for some time Dyson enjoys world monopolies via his patents.  In terms of innovation...  Oreck is a miserable failure, they have little to NO UTILITY PATENTS.  Can Oreck stop TTI or anyone from copying their vacuum and advertising (one pass for example) and informercials?  No.  Dyson dual cyclone was a perfect/near perfect mechanical design benefit...  or broad patent.  He had the worlds exclusive.  Today he has the worlds exclusive to the best steering vacuuming on the planet - the Ball.

Have you not figured out how to bag and capture most all the dust when emptying a Dyson?

Sir James and his team created a revolution and is the most copied vacuum and/or in parts vacuum in the world.  Miele patented Dyson-like cyclonic’s and recently applied for a clear bin and shroud patent.  The Miele spokesperson from the UK said the bag was the better choice (over so-called bagless), yet  they are coming out with separator filtration (per Mole, a dealer).

Dyson took a pounding on the way they advertised.  My guess is, this cost them tens of millions.  Have you looked at the false advertising Oreck does or did on their Canadian web site?  They claim their vacuums and their company is on the innovative cutting-edge (or something like this).

At the end of the day...  the sack N choke Oreck clogs and looses suction not unlike any sack N choke.  Dyson does not loose suction for up to 1 month (DC24/25) to 4-7 years (DDM DC22).

Have you seen the Gerry vacuum informercial?  If I were an Oreck dealer or assembly worker (or others), I’d be pretty upset at the Oreck suits.  While the Oreck vacuum and marketing is freely copied by competitors NO ONE IS COPYING the Dyson Ball.  And the Dyson Ball ranks high in sales per Target, Sears, Best Buy and Walmarts web sites.

While having a tube and hose built on-board (incorporated into an upright) so to become canister-like is not new in concept, but Dyson has the cleanest in the business.  Dyson proved this market too and now tubes/hoses is standard on uprights (credit goes to Dyson).
 
Oreck’s patents/lack of patents and dates tell the Oreck story well.  Oreck is not an innovator searching out innovative ways to solve lifes problems.  I know of an inventor who took a UV to Dave Oreck and was turned down.  Oreck looks to be an opportunist and nothing more.

Dave Oreck spoke at an University many years ago and was asked about inventions and he replied he believed in marketing (vice inventions).

Historically, innovation is King.


DIB

P.S.  Is the Ironman a technology?  Can you share the technologies patent number/s?  How is this sack N choke technologically different to the sack N chokes of the last 100 years?  The greater population wants on-board hose/wand [Dyson-led] arrangements.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

There you go again!  If you are sales puffing with your rose color dyson glasses, fine I can grin and bear the farcical.  If however you are making a statement of fact for us to believe as fact, please provide the sales numbers of the dyson ball models [DC24/25] at any one of these retailers for 2008/2009 as evidence.  I'm told by several store staffs at all these retailers in LV that there is zero demand among its vacuum buying consumers for dyson ball models.  They can't tell me the last time they sold one in the recent past, even with sales and discounts. 

BTW, did Sir James and his engineers resolve/correct the wiring harness defects on its DC25 ball.  The wires come undone rendering the vacuums totally inoperable within just months of purchase.  I know at least one authorized dyson dealer for North Las Vegas who has refused to sell new DC25 $#%* for several months now because of the warranty returns on this model for the motor wiring harnesses.  He keeps a sample handy to show customers who ask about the DC25, like I did.  Here's a question for you to mull and stew over and answer.  How much is Innovative technology costing  $500 worth if it's dead within a few months of purchase?

Carmine D.

Before being beaten down about having nothing good to offer, I will say that ORECK and DYSON both market their products in different fasion although the advertizing is put out in the same method,Dyson has the bagless cyclonic,never clogs and looses suction mantra that appeals to the buying public,[HEY OUR VACUUM ALWAYS USE TO CLOG AND THE SUCTION WAS TERRIBLE] So this must work look at all the innovation they put into it.It has a nice long story behind it,So half way through the infomercial or sales pitch on the qvc's etc the potential customers eyes glaze over and buy into it.

Oreck goes at it in similar fashion although weight,made in the states, sanitary disposal,remember the 80 year old woman holding the oreck over her head on the cartons in the dealers, Its all in the marketing both DYSON and ORECK have found its nitch markets,is one better than the other [thats for the customer to decide].

As for dyson and oreck  ITS BEEN A GOOD RIDE. And he who has the slickest ads will win,and the most money.

Lets face it where else can you get people to buy a 89.95 vacuum for 500.00 plus.

b.t.w watch out for falling prices,Its getting tuff out there,all that will be left is wally world, and casinos..................

regards

MOLE

I agree with Mole. The marketing makes all the difference. Take for example, Dyson's infamous Miele-looking vacuum vs The Ball commercial. It makes you think no one could vacuum a house with a standard old vacuum but the Ball GETS EVERYTHING! However, in that same respect marketing will only go so far and things are getting rough financially and especially here in the midwest. I attend a lot of estate sales and see a lot of 2k dollar vacuums being auctioned at these. It used to be you could easily expect 4-500 dollars out of a used Rainbow, Tristar, Kirby, Miracle Mate, Air Storm, Patriot, Hyla, or Vortech Force; any of the door to door niche brands. I actually saw a Rainbow and a Patriot go for less than 100 bucks TOGETHER 3 weeks ago. People are not spending premiums on these things right now and the marketing may help and the innovation may create buzz but pocketbooks are extremely tight. I just bought vacuums for my nieces for college this fall and you know what I bought? Bissell Powerglide 3545's! They were 70 bucks a piece at the local appliances store, they are well built and they can get their bags and/or filters at Wal-Mart for 5 dollars for 3. Two years ago I might have went out and spent 400 dollars on vacs for the girls but now, gonna watch my pennies. It had nothing to do with marketing or innovation. It had to do with the simple fact that they were cheap and accessories were accessible. I've had good luck out of cheap Bissells before if they are well taken care of. So to each his own but I think the price wars are going to continue and soon you'll see more of the high end stuff in Big Box Retail and less as niche products.

I agree with my colleagues here like MOLE and lazaruspup.  But... the "d" brand falls way short on its business model [sales thru big box retailers] while the timeless ORECK excels by sales/service/parts through ORECK stores nationwide. 

Tho dyson and its supporters here taut more vacuum patents than all the other vacuum brands from the beginning of time, it costs buku money to pay an in-house cadre of lawyers and have on call an outside group of lawyers to protect and defend those patents.  Money that a company with falling sales GLOBALLY year over year for the last 3 years can't afford to shell out.

To ORECK's credit, it scarfed up it's competitor's technology at bargain basement prices.  It owns all of halo's rights now.  A smart business move on ORECK's part.  It didn't cost ORECK the yearly salaries of 475 engineers on staff and who knows how many more high paid lawyers.

Innovation in hard economic times is highly overrated.  A simple basic BISSELL Clearview for $70, ORECK for $199, and HOOVER TEMPO for $85 is an easy sell all the time, not just when times are good.

Carmine D. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

Perhaps you should try an independent dealer detox program or sit in a dark room with other con men (oops) and confess all the deceptive independent dealer practices.  Perhaps you could get your buddy to support you and join you...  you know him, the so-called Dyson dealer who’s nailed many Dyson’s to the floor with his garbage side-by-side demo’s. - None of which demonstrate the Sack N Choke filters drastic drop in suction....  If you’ve forgotten, the dealer I’m talking of is the guy you said bought into a dealer program only for/mostly for the warranty work.

How come you fail to mention the fact that Dyson’s competitors have finally woke up to the Dyson technology gravy train and this has an impact on Dyson sales as does the economy too?  Can you explain why TTI, Hoover UK, LG, Samsung, Miele and many others are all attempting to reverse engineer Dyson’s patent claims and use Dyson patents in their patent application referencing?  Samsung is patenting many ways to separate dust from an airstream and attempting to copy the DC18 function.  Their patent drawings unashamedly show a DC18 looking vacuum.

Miele, Hoover UK, Samsung have all applied for and/or have somewhat steerable upright products that came only after the success of the Dyson Ball.  The Dyson Ball is a financial success no matter what independents and frustrated enthusiasts claim.

I have posted links to some of our nations largest retailers which told the Dyson sales story.  I have seen independent (non-Dyson) data on how Dyson sales rose from nothing (2002) and destroyed Hoover/Maytag share.  Will I discuss it here?  No.  Do I care if you believe me?  No.

I think you should stand outside of Oreck assembly with a Garry in one hand and an TTI bag Platinum in the other and ask if the Oreck employees feel better knowing their suits refuse to invest in making the vacuum better and protecting their jobs via utility patents.  It is only a matter of time before Oreck is forced to close down all/most of their US assembly do to their unwillingness to invent product people want and invent product that give them a worldwide monopoly.


DIB

mole wrote:
On first read I thought you were referring to Oreck.  Then I realized the sell a $59 vac for $700.

CarmineD wrote:
You have stated that Oreck is having a great year.  Where are the figures to show how great sales are.  BTW that Halo is great.  How many did they sell and how much has it boosted Oreck's sales?  Halo is an excellent addition to the Oreck line.  Another poor performer to the existing line.

If it is't my two best dyson friends pairing up again.  Business must be bad to have you both here at the same time posting.

DIB, very simple on the bagless models for typical bagged brands.  They are cloning your fave brand and selling cheaper in a down vacuum market/economy to push your high priced brand out!  Dyson may go the same way as halo, and one od the clones might buy up dyson's patent rights dirt cheap.  That's what happens in down markets. 

HS, ORECK did better than your fave brand in 2008 and so far in 2009.  How do I know?  Tom ORECK told me and all others so on national news [FNN].  It's been posted here.  That's why a host of other vacuum brands including the latest Garry are imitating ORECK's giveaways and lightweight products.  Your fave brand too.  As I said, ORECK bought the rights to the competition at bargain basement prices.  Why?  Eliminate the competition.  

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Again, what are those figures.  I missed them.  I believe that you have said that Dyson fudged on his numbers.  I would class Oreck below Dyson in honesty, therefore I need something other than an Oreck's word.

Dyson is not exactly competition for Oreck.  Dyson buyers prefer cleaning power over gimmick gifts and a machine that has to be rebuilt annually (at best).

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

You know that ORECK's sales numbers are proprietary information and released to the public only on a need to know bases.  I'll be as specific about Tom Oreck's remarks on the ORECK financial results for 2008 aired on FNN [which BTW he made in January 2009] as Tom.  ORECK was the first vacuum brand in the industry to comment on 2008 sales results.  What about your fave brand?  Missing in action? 

I'll paraphrase Tom's comments, which were posted here from the FNN video clip:  2008 ORECK sales were not as good as hoped and predicted BUT were much better than many of our leading competitors' brands.  That's all that really matters.  Dyson and ORECK are competitors.  Most recently since the DC18 Slim for $469 then DC24 ball for $399 which compete head on with ORECK.  The Slim is gone.  Discontinued by dyson.  DC24 is sitting unsold on shelves and will go the way of the DC18 if prices are not slashed.  Meanwhile ORECK is chugging along keeping its competition at bay.  So waht dysons do you and DIB own and use?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Ol Tom's statement does not sound as stellar as yours.  Of course we have come to expect exagerations from you. 

CarmineD wrote:

You previously told us that Hoover sales were above other brands.  Of course they went broke so yes, it is not all that matters.

Fewer sales and greater profits are longer lasting than high sales and low (or no) profits.

HS:

Both TTI/HOOVER and ORECK beat sales numbers of their competitors for 2008 and so far in 2009.  Even Consumer Reports made that claim for HOOVER/TTI: Leading brand seeller.  That makes them both have stellar years.  The leaders are always the winners.  ORECK and TTI/HOOVER are the winners.

Carmine D.

So would the dyson twins [HS/DIB] like to tell us which new dyson models they have purchased and used in their own homes so far this year? 

• The newest full size ball for $500?
• The lightweight ball for $400? 
• The midget DC22 cann with digital motor for $700 and 7 inch cleaning swath?  Remember the dealer dyson that premiered at the VDTA in Feb 2009 and then disappeared!  Only to show up in a few big box retailers.
• One of the latest handhelds like the DC30/31 for $250-$275 that runs for 10 minutes [in the slow mode and 5 in high] on a charge? 
• The DC27, a regurgitated DC17 with a few extra more tools, for $479.  Launched at Sam's Club in October 2008.  How many customer reviews to date?  5 so far in 8 months.  Wow!  That's a real success/sales winner.
• DC28 for $600?  Your fave company finally realized that some US homes with a variety of rugs/carpets actually do require a manual height adjustment.  475 dyson engineers and almost 8 years later of selling/telling the US vacuum public a self-adjusting brush head nozzle is the best for them and Sir James gets an epiphany.  What industry innovation:  A manual rug height adjustment!  Of course like all things dyson it comes with a huge price.

You bought so many that you needed a dyson ball barrow to take them home in!  Another innovative dyson advance that disappeared into oblivion, like the contra rotating washers and air blade hand dryers.  But alas all is not lost.  If some maker decides to steal the so much in demand product patents, Sir James and his merry band of high paid lawyers can sue.  That's one way to make money when the products don't sell in the market.  Of course the lawyers get most if not all of the proceeds in retainers and legal fees!  Now that's innovation. Full employment for the surplus supply of US lawyers! 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

Well i see youve been busy  today....ruffled some feathers i see.   But you forgot to mention high end....when speaking of the dysons.

 to justify his  massively  overpriced vacuums that are continuously beat year after year by the under $100 HOOVERS....same quality or better, better performer. and at a far lower price....and so what if he did this or that first...some saw /capitalized on his errors and are making the technology better and applying it to what they have....been going on in the auto industry for years.  Dyson foots the bill...comp. makes what he has better...and at a far-far lower price..all is fair in love and war...so they are gonna have to get over it ...deal with it....SHARKnow has a new vacuum ..direct comp and performance as dyson....under $200..w/ same quality and warr. ...so how do all the copycats make the same vac  with same perf- life- features....yet at a far lower price. Dyson could only wish to have the sucess and lifespan of the orecks....simple design  that works year aft year...durability beyond most all others...and at  $199......WHY COMPLICATE  IT .... dyson...they are niche vac at best for a few...but an industry leader they are not nor will ever be....nobody within a 100 mi  will touch/service  one or take as trade in discount.....thrift stores are full of them...pawn shops wont take them  ..if there are so many dyson lovers then get together and send in your address to them as a nation wide service center so all can have a place to send them ....this way dyson will quit  sendg  DYSON CUSTOMERS  to those  shops that  have already called them and asked them to stop sending  their  DYSON  problems...become a dyson network....its freedom of choice..if shops dont want anything to do with dysons......thats freedom of choice...freedom of opinion

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Either your facts are skewed and/or you have a vivid imagination for making up tales completely unrelated to my posts.

In the past, I noted here in LV that there are two independent  vacuum cleaner store owners and operators [not counting ORECK] with dyson related work.  Both these stores deal in all makes and models.  One is an authorized dyson dealer and has been for awhile.  He is THE AUTHORIZED DYSON DEALER for North Las Vegas.  One is not a dyson dealer and has no plans to be.  Both sell dysons only if specifically requested and then with reservations.  One sells just used dysons [from trades and unclaimed repairs].  One sells new and used dysons.  Both are also authorized sales and service dealers for most other vacuum brands: RICCAR, SIMPLICITY, BOSCH, PANASONIC, MIELE etc. 

The non-dyson dealer has been inundated with dyson repairs both in and out of warranty.  He has found that many of the dyson repairs go undone/unclaimed due to the high costs of dyson parts and service.  He asked me if I would be interested in a part time job repairing/refurbing these dysons.  He is by the way a friend of my son-in-law and daughter.  They go to the same Church and are members of the same ward.  He is a practicing Mormon in good standing as are my SIL and daughter.  I turned him down on several occasions for fear that the part time job would end in a full time job. 

The other is a full fledged dyson dealer, tho as I explained he refuses to sell anymore new DC25 models because of the defective motor wiring harnesses.  I don't know what his religion is.  I mentioned here that in a recent visit to his store there were at least 6 or more DC07 and DC14 models in need of repairs for clutch related problems.  He was waiting for the okays on these from the customers before doing the work.  He opined that he would not be surprised if he did not get the okays and instead the customers traded in for other brands.  In which case he would salvage the dysons for parts and/or rebuild and sell as used to customers who insist on buying.

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:
I think this is a bit of a stretch. We throw out more Shark vacuums  than any other unit we come across and we also hear the most complaints about their customer service. There is no comparison between the quality of it and the quality of a Dyson, Eureka, Hoover or whatever other brand name you can toss about.  Sharks warranty also requires that the user pay the shipping costs.  Nice money maker for the company.

Dusty

PS for DIB from my previous post:

The ORECK stores here in LV repair and sell parts for most other brands EXCEPT dysons.  When customers come in/call about dyson parts and repairs, the ORECK stores here in LV direct them to dyson.  End of story.

I HAVE SAID HERE ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS IF I WERE STILL IN THE VACUUM BUSINESS TODAY I WOULD PROBABLY CARRY THE DYSON LINE JUST TO GET THE PARTS AND WARRANTY WORK. 

I can only opine that from my hypothetical statement you fabricated your version of the story you posted as a fact of statement I made.  If I'm wrong and you have my post as evidence, please correct me here and post it so I can/will apologize to you.

Carmine D.

ANOTHER PS FOR DIB:

As far as nailing dysons down to floor, I don't know where you got that but certainly not from me.  Dysons don't need to be nailed to the floor not to move.  They sit on shelves and in warehouses unsold gathering dust due to their own inertia:  Too high priced for the lackluster performance.  Especially in the worse global economic tsunami since the Great Depression.

Carmine D.

Hello 'turtle1"

I've told DIB more times than I care to remember here that's it's not who comes to market first in the vacuum industry that wins the prize.  It's who copies the best and sells for less.  Innovative technology isn't worth anything unless you can market it to the masses at an affordable price: ie: color TV's, cell phones, computers, etc.  Dyson has demonstrated time and time again that for a host of reasons it can't do this in the vacuum industry /market in the USA.  Other vacuum brands are doing it now [copying] and selling for less and squeezing dyson out.  Just as you say.  End of dyson story. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

this was used as an example ..as to the comp. closing in on dyson '' and the fact that all are offering what dyson does at a far lower price.

and as said before....its an opinion. im aware of sharks rep in the vac industry...and feel that the two are getting closer in terms of quality...again an opinion

a point of view. ...and its the names that were tossed about that are the reason why dyson is steadly slipping and why dyson wont ever be anything more than a niche product at  best....dyson foot the bill and all came in and made it better at a lower price....it is what it is..plain and simple.

i do agree with you on shark vacs....to a point.....ive seen some that wont die and work great...they make a good 8.5 amp hand vac for $25 that will devestate a dyson hand vac with no problem ...again at a fraction of the cost.   i give credit where credit is do....the dc7 was the best dyson made  ...the ddm is a great motor  in terms  of technology.....but soon the compitition will take that motor and make it better....my view

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

Regarding the Dyson Ball (best steerable upright on the planet), Dyson sits alone and enjoys a U.S. monopoly on steering uprights and profits.  He has no competition, he owns the upright steering segment (a segment he created).

The Prize?  Who exactly is winning or going to when this “prize”.  In your professional and unbiased opinion or knowledge, what manufacturer/s exactly is winning or going to win this “prize”?


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

You're adroit at avoiding questions and asking your own to divert the issues/subject matter.  I asked you of what value is a $500 plus innovative technological product that fails its users within months of purchase.  I'm specifically referring to a DC25 with defective motor wiring harness which THE AUTHORIZED DYSON DEALER OF NORTH LAS VEGAS refuses to sell.  If you answer my question you will have the answer to your question.  Eye on the prize, my friend!

WRT to 2008 and 2009 vacuum sales, the two worse years for vacuum sales in the industry in decades, it has been said by me, and others, that the clear winners, industry leaders, and prize getters [for product sales] are ORECK and TTI/HOOVER.  For the latter I would also add that Consumer Reports has declared HOOVER the "leading brand seller" AND rated 7 of HOOVER's uprights in its top 20 uprights.  Including the number ONE position.  Eye on the prize! 

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1"

I would add to your opinions about Shark products that the consumer editor/writer of the Wall Street Journal on two separate occasions rated the Shark held held vacuum for $40 and Steam Mop for $80 as the top performers in their class among a filed of competitors.  I posted these reported findings from the articles on this page at the time and some time ago probably before your tenure.  Eye on the prize!

Carmine D.

PS 'turtle1':  I agree with you.  Dyson is a niche seller and of late is struggling unsuccessfully to keep its market share of sales year over year even in the UK.  It's less expensive [read more affordable] and often times better performing bagged/bagless vacuum products of the competition are gradually eroding dyson's once prominent sales position.  Which by the way was constantly blasted to the vacuum industry by dyson and its supporters.  Not to mention that the global meltdown in consumer buying and confidence has sounded a solemn death knell for the over priced, over hyped, over hawked 'd' brand.  If it doesn't reinvent itself, win favor with its products among industry watchers, and slash prices, dyson will go the same route as halo.

Carmine D

DysonInventsBig wrote:

What good is a steerable $400/$500 plus product/niche market if the darn thing doesn't perform after a few months and/or get under furniture and beds?  Another question that will go unanswered.

Innovation is highly overrated, especially in a down global economy.  Reference: HALO!!!  $70 BISSELL bagged/bagless Clearviews, $199 ORECK uprights and $80 HOOVER TEMPO vacuums sell well and always in good times and bad.  AND they perform better than your steerables for much less.

Carmine D.

BTW DIB would you care to share your historical observations about halo and its web page with us again for the record!

What were your exact words:  The high tech web page will sell MILLIONS!  Was that it?  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  What happened to halo?  Bought by a competitor you like to bash here for a bargain basement price less than a year after you made your infamous prediction!  Now what was that you were saying about dyson products?  Mainstream?  Top seller?  Where?  Not even in your or HS houshold!  With loyal customers like you, no wonder dyson is missing in action on 2008 financial comments/reports.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Sounds like you when you said the Hoover Fusion and "z" would be the down fall of Dyson.  It didn't happen.Hoover went busted and Dyson is surviving.

CarmineD wrote:

Do you honestly think that the vac industry sales in any city that you live in is indicative of what is hapening nationally?  What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.  Low Dyson sales there is not indicitave of their survival or failure.  Same as where you moved from.

Hoover (per you) was going great when it went busted a couple years back. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HS:

The oustanding sales of HOOVER Fusion [a TTI sourced bagless upright] at Wal*Mart stores was instrumental for dropping dyson's DC07 Original for several years.  Least I remind you it is still going strong after several generations of newer and better models.  Z is still in the HOOVER TTI line up.  How many discontinued dysons still are?  BTW how many new dysons have you added to your household.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

There you go again with your dyson colored glasses.  At least you have the honesty to admit that dyson sales are tanking in Las Vegas and the metro Washington DC area.  May I add ORECK and HOOVER are going great guns from the reports I receive.  Watch the sales and ads nationwide HS.  What vacuum makes and models are always in the retailers' pages?Not high priced dysons.  Waste of advertising money.  Unless like BEST BUY stores recently offering a $100 off the latest and greatest dyson DC28 for $600 [sale price $509] within the same month of launch.  Why?  To generate some sales. 

No my dear dyson friend:  Dyson sales are tanking globally not just in one or two cities in the USA.  You and your dyson twin are in denial.  The dyson party's over.  Dyson needs to revamp and revise its prices and products, get some favorable sales exposure from the experts including the indies, and hope the global economy recovers.  If not, it's sayonara on the old metal guitar for your fave company.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You have stated more than once that pricing was the issue between WM and Dyson.  Fusion is not going strong.  Most all Hoovers are in their lineup.  If anything this had more to do with their downfall than profitability.  Last I heard the Z was going for $50 and still not selling.

How many Hoovers have you added since discovering Oreck?  No need to keep inferior models like Hoover (if the newer are better).  I liked the DC07 and you know that I have not been positive about its replacements.

CarmineD wrote:
What I notice in the ads is low end product to draw customers.  Hoover has always been on sale which makes me wonder what retail should actually be.  Right, no need to advertise if you are selling good.  Tom Oreck reports differently than you.  Of course he probably never look at sales in NV and DC since you watch thes for him.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

i ask this.....whats the big deal about a steering ball?  its vacuum not a porsche.  Y not take the dc7, fix the flaws , add the ddm with a larger impeller.

....keep the price under $300......youll  have a  vacuum with some credibility that will be taken seriously and not as a niche vac nobody wants to touch.

Dump the rest of the line-up of uprights...@ that sorry handheld  .reprice the can.....at or below $200....and dyson stays in the game.

Tempo is a simple vacuum that has the same quality as the dyson.....yet will outperform all dysons at the low low low price of under $100....thats all that matters.

its an issue that dyson cannot and will not address...because he cant. ...400+ engrs. and they cant come up with an upright to meet or beat a  Tempo?

guess  thats ..high end ennovation at work...sometimes simple just works better.

HARDSELL wrote:

Since you ask HS, within the last year I purchased 2 more NEW HOOVER TEMPO's, 2 more NEW HOOVER SLIDERS [I think I own the record for the most of these ever purchased by a single buyer], another HOOVER S1351 cann and a TTI/DIRT DEVIL Kruz [does that count?].  Most of which I donated/gifted away.  BTW, in the last year I also bought another new XL Classic and gifted away to a family member [making a total of 5 new ORECK's since April 2007].  This most recent one went to a niece with two boys ages 8 and 10.  They assist their Mom with the vacuuming using the ORECK.  They love it!  And as you know, I'm on a list for a new Steam It from ORECK and I have plans to parlay the purchase with the Silver Series ORECK.  Very soon I hope.

Dave doesn't have to worry about sales in LV.  I do a good job keeping the ORECK sales trend up in LV.

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Agree 'turtle1.'  475 engineers and a price tag of $500 plus and dyson can't design and market a vacuum that's has parity with an $80 HOOVER TEMPO.  Eye on the prize!  Dyson and the twins just don't get it!

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

I thought you was a vacuum guru.  If handling is unimportant why bother with an Oreck electric broom.  Weight is the only sell point and it is directed at the weak and old.  After all you may as well use a semi as a Porsche for vacuuming.

Since you work at a vac shop I would like to ask a simple question.  Where does the profit come from.  I am talking about the most profit that keeps the shop open.  1. New vac sales. 2. Supplies (bags, belts, etc.) 3. vac repairs.

HARDSELL wrote:

Guru...not me ..i say what i gotta say. my outlook/what ive seen  or opinion...never claimed to know all....your words...many at that.

get over the fact that people arent going to agree with you.....see what you see. we all have our views ,'  this is a fun place to debate..a getaway.

dont need a ball.....wheels do a great job....why complicate it/add cost.  its not an obsticle course ...

marketed/ directed at our seniors...yet bought by millions of non seniors who know the name and what it stands for...it does what its supposed

to do....and does it for 15+ yrs at a time. @$199.00 ...your simple answer= repairs./service

hardsell...if i agree with you ..isay so....when your right..isay so ...ask a question i can answer-  ill answer honestly...i have no reason to lie or boast.

if i dont know something- i say i dont......i enjoy these debates with you...between all of us and will continue to stand my ground on my views...and what i like.

but i also welcome other peoples insight and opinions...i love and enjoy what i do for a living so i make it a point to know as much as i can...as  i will  have my own vac shop in time.  but still alot to learn before i do.

retardturtle1 wrote:

This would be a very dull forum without discussions.  I have no problem with anyone who does not agree.  If Carmine agreed with me all the time I would likely leave the forum.  Guess I am here for awhile. I do have a problem with those who tell half truths or only half the story just to prove their point.  I have to say that you are forthright and I do not think that you lie.  I just do not agree with all tha you say.  Often I think that your thinking is swayed by Carmine.

Sure you do not need  a ball.  Also the average home does not need a feather weight,  Push a Kirby for awhile and you will soon appreciate a vacuum that handles well althought it is not absolutely necessary.  I think the Kirby does an excellent cleaning job but is a pain in the rear to navigate around the house.  The reviews that I read about Oreck certainly are a mixed bag (no pun intended).  They seem to have their share of service problems and clogs.  15 years service is not so good if you are not deep cleaning your carpet.

You and other independents criticize Dyson quality.  Yet all make their living doing service and repairs.  Most also do not work on Dysons.  Isn't it odd that those who do not sell or repair Dyson make a comfortable living repairing those brands that they taut as being so great in quality? 

HARDSELL wrote:

Dont want you to agree with me....i want points of view. opinions and to hear what you and all others have to say about this or that.

i agree about the kirby..i have a hrtg 2....a beast... does a great job but my sanitaire sc684 does a better job. and yes its easier  to push around on certain kinds of carpet.

besides the shop ..i have alot of cleaning accounts where im constantly useing dozens of different vacuums all the time..so i have seen alot of what works and what doesnt....i dont know all there is to know but i know alot about the ones i use...perf / quality /durability..ect. and when i dont know i ask...

my opinions or thoughts come from me...if im in doubt i ask...i go by what i have seen with my own eyes..and actually used in the field...Carmine is a person of vast knowledge and exp. far beyond me...and most others.  but if my thoughts coinside with his through what ive seen...then we agree.  i agree with your thoughts on the dc7   i say dysons best..you dont....overpriced i say....i gave away.  but i dislike all bagless in most cases.

i believe if im wrong..show me and ill say im wrong... i have no reason to be dishonest...how will i learn anything that way. ..half truths=ignorance...no reason for it....too many people on this forum to go to for info....and no reason for people tp make up stuff....all they gotta do is ask.

i feel orecks are great on low to med carpet..hard floors....deep pile not so much.  kinda loud but  but never bothered me...nor would it keep me from buying one.

 i hope we dont agree for the most part...no fun in that.      this forum is a break from the everyday...a place to get away....

ill be looking forward to your posts .       

 

Hello 'turtle1'

I am happy to influence others on vacuums and whatever else I can.  It's a personal and professional calling we all have as we age and MUST share our experience, knowledge, and wisdom with those who ask.  If people resent/complain/comment negatively about this [beware of the hunters' snare] I suggest they examine their own motives and reasons. 

Now that we all know your background [and mine], is it too much to ask for the dyson twins to tell us theirs?  Dare they?  They are the first to say it doesn't matter AND the first to impugn others who do, especially pro industry professionals.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

. I do have a problem with those who tell half truths or only half the story just to prove their point.  I have to say that you are not forthright and I do  think that you lie. .  Often I think that your thinking is swayed by Carmine.

H.S. how many dc11s you fix?

How many clutches and belts kits have you replaced on the dc 07,14, how many diverter valves have you repaired on dc18's?

What happened to your boy  MOTOR HEAD/GASKO,oh thats right he's in the tacony camp now"""Dib must feel really betrayed by now,

B.T.W whens thew dyson camp going to open service centers like hoover and eureka and oreck did and have done,

In reply to your profit question,our most profitable product is $1200 plus profit, So when do you want to start playing with the big kids>>>>>>>>>>

regards

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

I hear these same common repair ills on all these dyson models from all the indies.  No doubt the reason in large part that all of these dyson models [DC07, DC11, DC18 and soon the DC14] have gone the same path as the dyson ball barrow:  Oblivion.  If dydon doesn't rectify the warranty problem on its DC25, that will be another d brand product that bites the dust rather than picks it up.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Since you took the liberty of altering my quote into a lie I rest my case on the honesty of some independents.

Should we assume that you make your living by repairing Dysons or have you had a few with the problems you mention.  If not is seems that you are leading us to believe that only Dysons have issues.  Only a fool would believe that.  Most of you made a comfortable living before Dyson.  How did you manage with all those other trouble vacuums?

A dealer could ceertainly get rich on $1200 profit occasionally and no other repairs in the shop.  I play with the big boys daily. They earned it honestly.

MOLE:

Weren't these the lifetime dyson belts?  Yeah, right.  Like the dyson lifetime filters that never clog!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I can't say I recall ORECK ever making any claims [in over 45 years] that caused buying consumers/regulatory authorities to intervene with a cease and desist order.  I do for dyson [in just 4 years] by the ASA due to a class action. 

Carmine D.

Strange that everyone is quite happy to come down on manufacturers when they exaggerate claims but when someone completely alters another users quote nothing is said. Shall we consider this acceptable practice from now on?

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:

There are too many comsumer complaints of Orecks clogging so no need for them to make the claim.  There is less chance of a Dyson clogging than there is of one of the others stealing from Dyson.  Judging from many of your previous statements stealing and lieing is permissable--------------if it benefits you or one of your favorites.

HARDSELL wrote:

Do you have proof for this allegation?  Or just a clever dyson shill to divert attention from the truth?

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Not quite Dusty.  How are you?  I suspect if it were an egregious act of commission, the Forum policers would handle it accordingly. 

I read the original exchanges between HS and 'turtle1' and knew what HS said.  When I saw the misquoted excerpt by MOLE I took it as an error in posting  a quoted message [act of omission].  Not the first or last time it will happen.  Never gave it a second look/thought.  MOLE has never been known here to impugn posters here personally and/or professionally.  Unlike some who post here, MOLE sticks to the products not the people. 

BTW, MOEL posed several questions to HS which are still unanswered.  HS is the one who always seeks answers from others but never provides himself.   HS made an issue of the misquote to avoid answering MOLE.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Doing well thanks...just working thru the slow days of summer.  You know how it is, nobody thinks about vacuuming when you can sit on the patio, enjoy the sun and sip drinks instead of doing housework.

I too read the original exchanges and knew what Hardsell said.  I also realized that  if one were to use the quote button or to copy and paste Hardsells comments there would be no issue at all.  However, the quote that Mole attributed to Hardsell would have had to have been edited on purpose for it to still make sense. Whether HS brings this up to avoid answering questions or not, it's a legitimate complaint.  We can't all go around altering others words so we can use it to better our own opinions.

I suspect Mole meant it as a dig at HS but that's only because I've seen these exchanges before...for somebody new here who didn't know the history I think it takes away from the credibility of the forum and the discussion held here. Just my 2 cents.

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

In over 40 years of the vacuum store biz, summers were always the worse.  My partner, when I had a partner for the road work, used the down time to hone his tennis skills.  Ranked 6th in NJ at one time.  I played the nags!  All the tracks in the NJ/NY/MD area.

I appreciate your opinion but disagree with the reasons I explained.  I have had the system malfunction when posting a quote and other processes.  Maybe it was my fault, and/or my computer.  It happens on occasion.  In any event if anyone should be upset it is 'turtle1' at whom HS's comment was directed.  Or me whose is mentioned by name along with the misquote.  I could attribute it to mean me.  Neither of us is upset with MOLE.  Apparently, the Forum watchers here either.

One whole truth and nothing but the truth that apparently all have missed, except MOLE, is the reference to TOM GASKO and MOTORHEAD and dyson and TACONY.  No comments on that statement and MOLE nailed it right on the head. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I can see how one could make an issue with the filter never clogging statement.  I also understand that a person with common sense would know that some maintenance (cleaning filter) would be required for it to never clog.  If it never clogged without maintenance there would be no need fot it in the first place.

It is just as laughable to read when one claims that Oreck, Hoover and others are good for 15 or more years.  They just fail to tell how much maintenance costs will be during that 15 years. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello my dyson friend HS:

Common sense my dyson friend is very uncommon. 

FACT:  No vacuum maker you cited above, nor any others in over 100 years of the vacuum industry, ever printed in its product literature, on cartons, and sales information that its vacuum products had 'zero maintenance costs' SAVE ONE.  Your fave d brand.  Remember the sugar coating to buy and use.  That claim now long gone by dyson is one prima facie example.  Fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Carmine, 

It should be very clear that I was referring to individuals in my quote above.  You should also realize that the second paragraph is referring to one of the many half truths made by some of the self proclaimed pros.

HS dyson friend:

It's very obvious that I'm talking about disengenuos [read: false, misleading, UNTRUE] product claims made by ONE vacuum brand in over 100 years and not people who post here. 

Dusty pointed out the error of allowing misleading/untrue posts here.  The same applies to products.  False, misleading, untrue written claims result in consumers losing credibility in the product and brand name.  Your fave d brand is guilty in the first degree.

I related a story here about a young mother who purchased a new dyson from COSTCO for almost $600 only to return it a year later, with the box, receipt, and owner manual in tow.  Why?  It lost suction!  I said to her when I met her in the parking lot with dyson and child in hand:  Did you clean the filter?  She'll looked at me with a look that would kill.  She said when I bought this vauum for $600, nobody told me I had to clean filters.  They told me it would never clog and lose suction.  That's why I paid $600 for it!  She got her money back.  Oops!  There goes another dyson refurb!

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:
Dusty's right.  Re-editing others words only highlights lack of integrity.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

If done deliberately, as in making false, misleading, untrue product claims, I agree.  If done in error, poster gets a pass in my book.  And apparently in the book of the ones who monitor the Forum. 

Now DIB, that I have your attention, MOLE made a statement of fact in that post about a former dyson gung ho poster here and directed it to you.  Seems the dyson banner carrier/waver has set up a tent in the TACONY camp.  No comments on MOLE's observation?  Recall that after the dyson supporter's dyson conversion, SIMPLICITY debarred  him/his store biz as an authorized user.  [May have been before your time].  The two have kissed and made up.  Always like a happy ending!  Don't you?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

If done deliberately or not, there has been plenty of time for correction.  I accept a certain amount of lack-of-integrity here, I do not accept changing others words.  No one was backing up what Dusty (a dealer) stated and I thought I would.

I've met and like Tom.  I have not spoke to him is some time, I wish him well in all his endeavors.  I thought it was most kind to invite you to the museum.  After reading what Motorhead posted of the museum, it sounds like the only one in the world at this magnitude and caliber.  It’s funny...  the guy who is uninvited to a *silly vacuum club goes on to run (not sure of his title) and/or open the **worlds largest vacuum museum.  Too funny.


DIB

*My words only.
**I’ve yet to hear of anything bigger.

Rather than have everyone guess or assume, one would think the poster of said error would clarify things and explain how it happened.

Dusty

The said poster Me did it on purpose would i do it again  Yes in a heartbeat,All you clowns are clueless.H,S, knows that Carmine was an independent dealer for many years,And his distain for Carmine is because Dyson tried the dealers first and the dealers REJECTED Dyson in a hurry,So H.S. lumps all vac shop owners as unethical,greedy,rip off artists,who should be banned from ever putting a key in the door.

I have been following this trend for 5 years now.
So hows this for HONESTY D,I,B,, YOUR NOTHING BUT A CORPORATE CLINGON HIDING BEHIND i SUPPORT INVENTORS, Your so full of B,S, your eyes should be brown.......

REGARDS

MOLE

mole wrote:
Mole,

Of course you changed HS words deliberately to fit your motives.  Carmine (a fellow dealer-brother con) said it was a computer error and that too was a con.

Profit margin is KING with independent dealers.  Dealers turn down Dyson primarily for this reason only.  The DC07 has a miniscule $120 or so margin and a $0 bags and belts margin.  Economics (huge margins of hyped tired vacuums), not Dyson products are the reasons Dyson is lied about by bad-mouthing-sellers of competitive vacuums and/or there are the jealous of Dyson’s success independents too.  So-called hi-end vac’s have margins 4-8 times that of the DC07, anyone can do the math.  Many in sales/services of all kinds are happy with their career choices. Yet and for some pathetic reason many bad-mouthing part swapper independent Dealers are frustrated when they watch what looks to them...  was easy money and fame Dyson achieved.  Bad-mouthing independents fail to recognize Sir James is very intelligent and this God given intelligence and courage and against the odds determination and not luck made him.  As for your Dyson likes to sue and other garbage claims, they too are simply another con... I’ve seen many of the lawsuits and Dyson has very few on file.  So the Dyson is sue-happy con that you and Carmine use is just that...  a con.

Dyson spends/has spent up to $45m annually in U.S. advertising.  When your hyped-made with in the public domain, off-the-shelf parts and design vacuums spend nothing in advertising this translates into bigger margins for independent dealers.  And since the tired vacuum manufacturers spend little to nothing in R&D this translates into more or bigger margins for the independent dealers.  Manufacturers sell em cheap and vac’s are marked up astronomically and hyped as special.  They vac alike/almost alike and filter no better than any sack N choke.

Remember...  inventors like Dyson do what they do so guys like you can wake up and have a job.  Bad-mouther’s and rock-throwers are a dime-a-dozen, creators of life changing, job creating, wealth creating widgets or service’s are not.

Remember... it was you who illustrated how easy it is to make strong sack N choke vacuums using junk parts.  Vice Dyson...  Dyson holds many utility patents, which translates into world exclusives and moneymakers.  The vac’s you sell can be equaled with junk parts and sold to the public and it’s all perfectly legal.  Not so with Dyson.  Bissell and TTI for example had to wait (or almost) 20 years until they could make a dual cyclone.  The Ball is a Dyson world exclusive and moneymaker and cannot be copied until year 2025 or so.  Dyson has the cleanest hose/wand combo exclusive on the planet.  Again, your high margined, "hyped as special vac’s" can be made and equaled/near equaled and sold publicly using junk parts and it's all perfectly legal.  Not so with Dyson, patent laws protect Dyson, a reward system for hard work and intelligence.


DIB

P.S.  Certainly many independents are honest, but most are not.  Independents and/or their enthusiast’s buddies are the number one Dyson bad-mouther’s posing as consumers at review sites.  Fact.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Fact! It's ironic that you spelled intelligence wrong. :D

lazaruspup wrote:
Pointing to a misspell, all the while not saying a word to the many Dyson bad-mouther's who fail to capitalize, punctuate and who basically write like 4th graders.  Typical.

DIB

Hello DIB:

It's a con that HS did it deliberately.  He's yanking your chain and you reacted just as predicted.  A tirade against the personal and professional integrity and business acumen of people, who in most cases, have been in the vacuum industry for more years than you been taking breaths.  You would have us believe that these business professionals did so in bad times and good by being dishonest?  Now that's a con par excellence. 

Carmine D

mole wrote:

Hello MOLE:

I'll second that and DIB's response is proof positive.  As usual MOLE, you hit the nail on the head!  Nice work!

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

As you know TOM GASKO was a long time advocate of dyson in the beginning even before it moved here.  His support for dyson and James is legendary.  Probably your mentor.  At one point even considering calling his store the dyson store.  I advised him against it.  if he's honest he'll tell you so.  His actions and public words caused SIMPLICITY to drop him because TOM was not meeting the rules and regs of an authorized dealer.  TOM was upset.  I told him at the time to bide his time and all things would get resolved.  If he's honest he'll tell you so.  It appears now I was right on both accounts.  As MOLE said, you miss TOM as a dyson dealer partner here.  You and HS are left w/o Matt mmc Airblade too.  The old dyson crowd is dwindling with time and a track record.  The test of time.  That's how independents stay in business for the long haul.  They pass with integrity the test of time. 

Carmine D. 

Hey DIB.
I see your still following the Dyson credo,I am happy for you,of course you have to or else Jimmy would cut you loose like GASKO.The indys are in business to make a living just like you, Any independent that can handle this downturn are going to comeback even stronger, Just so you know many already have,Its not by luck but by knowledge and treating the customer right,Trust me its not always about the money motive.

You can mark my words By the time i get done with dyson and his band of thieves and con men.They will be growing their own potatoes again ,just to survive,,,,,,,,,,,,


regards

MOLE

Carmine,

I quite enjoyed your “computer error” claim when you tried to cover for Mole’s re-edit.  That was one of your weakest and obvious attempts at conning the readers.   But I loved it for its entertainment value.  Like I said before, you must have been quite “something” back in the day and back in your shop.  Your belief system or style is always the same…  serving yourself all the while making the buyer feel you’re on his/her side.  So where does your Dyson jealousy come from… an insecurity?  I think many dealers and enthusiasts are frustrated and attack Dyson (man and business) because they are good part swappers but cannot get past this point, Dyson is the poster child to their frustration.  Am I close?

Oops, did I call the bad-mouthing and frustrated "part swappers"?  It was probably a computer glitch.


Mole,

Dyson will be around for a long while, and it will not just be in vacuums.  You need to educate yourself about the man you attack.  He knows how to get things done and knows the value of innovations that solve problems.  I must say his competitors have woken up somewhat, but they still have yet to invent anything big.  Dyson is the industries innovation leader.  Dyson indirectly spoon-fed this tired and slothful industry.  And not because I say so, but because competitors produce product that resembles Dyson and ONLY after Dyson launched (his various products).


DIB

There you go again DIB.  When you can't dispute the facts you digress and go with personal attacks.  I stick to the products and their pros and cons.  Be honest and straight forward with customers and they keep coming back [for over 40 years in the same location and still].  Make false, misleading, exaggerated and untrue product claims about what your products can/can't do, and the truth eventually prevails.  If your father pawned off hamburger meat as filet mignon and charged customers accordingly, I suspect his 3 restaurants would not have survived for very long.  The vacuum biz is no different. 

Your belief system is as self-serving as you have always been here.  Where you stand depends on where you sit.  You are clearly a dyson pawn here just as TOM was for a long period of time.  You believe and ssay if a dealer sells dyson it is honest and business worthy.  If the dealer doesn't, as most indies don't, they are liars and jealous of James' success.  DIB, that line is getting old here.  It works for a short time when dyson doesn't have a track record.  Now that it does, the dyson failures speak for themselves.  Mediocre performance anfd products with luxury prices.  A con par excellence.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Let me say for MOLE that this is classic DIB dyson bull shine with sugar coating.  Dyson products' reps are the laughing stock of the USA vacuum industry.  Even among authorized dyson dealers.  Get real and visit the indies and talk with them and look around their shops and stores.  See what they say directly about dysons' products and James.  Not liked at all.  Just the opposite.  They'll tell you he is no vacuum man.

Don't even talk about wheel barrows, hand dryers, washing machines and other dyson failed products.  It makes them laugh hysterically.  You're living in a dream world DIB.  Follow TOM's lead and others here.  Jump off the dyson ship before it goes down and you're left without a life preserver.  TOM did.  Joined back in with the TACONY ranks.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote: CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

The more you talk the more you expose and confirm the pathetic underbelly of the two-faced con men.  Glad to see you finally confirm many Dyson-dealers are two-faced and crooks.  It’s amusing to hear how these do-nothin’s laugh at those who get things done.  If I want a lesson in underachieving, I’ll be sure to approach the lying, two-faced, do-nothin *independents.


DiB

*The crooked independents muddy/potentially muddy the waters for the good independents.

DIB:

You're living in a dyson fantasy land following your leader the piper Sir James.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

Call it anything you want.  It sure is a better choice than taking the advise from rock-throwers that have little to no impact on greater society.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB,

I been following this debate for a bit but I can't quite agree.

Most independent purveyors of vacuums are in just the about the same boat these days as the guy who owns the deli across the street or the man who runs the laundry up the block. They are all doing the best they can to to keep their heads above water.

Personally, I have seldom had problems with indie vac dealers save for the occasion now and then when our "brand religion" may not match up. The public is not easily gulled, at least not for long. If they don't get what they need one place, they do go elsewhere. Thus, the nudniks in the vac business and industry really only succeed for a time.

As for Dyson's innovations, it's still got a long, long way to go. Despite the obvious final result, thorough vacuuming is still as labor intensive and time consuming as hauling out a broom and dustpan. This remains so no matter the brand of choice. At this point in time real innovation would the vacuum cleaner that does significantly more with significantly less passes. That, namely a single-pass machine, hasn't happened yet. Dyson hasn't done it, Hoover hasn't done it, nor Oreck, nor Miele, nor Electrolux, nor Bosch and the myriad brands on the market. The only exception, innovatively speaking, is Roomba which to me is still more a nice idea than a thoroughly effective cleaning device.

Back in the the day when Pop went to work and Mom held down the home front, "innovations" were good fodder for possible buyers. A little chrome and a short sci-fi tale about cyclones and rainstorms on a leash went a long way. But, now we're living in a new day.

Now, Mom and Pop are both working and coming home tired. More and more young people are living on their own either alone in postage stamp size apartments or in communal groups of ten per flat. Whatever the call, those able to work are working hard and looking for as much playtime as possible too. Automatic clothes washers, dishwashers and the microwave oven have saved our bacon timewise in some ways but vacuuming is still the short end of the stick.

The world doesn't need to be fed wondrous visions of cyclonics nor be inundated with promises of dust capture down to the atom. All that's required is a vacuum that's quickest and best at getting the job done well so that it can be chucked back into a closet allowing the user to get on with life.

Dyson hasn't solved that problem yet. AND please don't again try to impress upon me how a canister vacuum with thimble-size dust capacity and a nine-inch power nozzle or an upright that feels like you're pushing a truck when set to clean low-pile carpet is supposed to be innovation.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

I call them as I see them.  There is a valid reason that the vacuum cleaner store owners and operators [the backbone of the vacuum industry in the USA, not the supposed innovators with 475 paid engineers who charge luxury prices for nothing more than average with a sugar coated marketed as in hype] are called indies as in independents.  They don't cotton and/or are beholden to any one brand.  They pck and choose the best for their clientele for the price. They are not puppets on a string manipulated by a pied piper called James like you are here. 

Your theory about a huge nationwide independent vacuum store owner/operator conspiracy against dyson and James is a hoax, a con, just like many of the dyson product claims.  It's the pied piper's calling to keep you in tow.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

I agree with your entire post.  Excerpted this to add:  Or a vacuum that sits on a ball tried in an upright and canister by GE years [read decades] ago and faded into oblivion.  Just like DIB's fave brand ball, which BTW he paid $300 for a DC15 ball several years ago on clearance from BEST BUY.  It's been superceded by a DC18 and DC24/25 ball.  Has he purchased the latest and greatest ball that he raves here so much about.  No.  Let alone would he do so for MSRP.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Then why dont you visit your local dealers and see whats really going on [welcome to the real world] Y ou might just learn a thing or two. Of course you will getting an earfull about your beloved Dyson and the non vacuum cleaner co that he really is .think you could handle it D.I.B.

Ask your buddy Chris how many he got stuck with?

Please report back with your findings.We will be eagerly waiting.

regards

MOLE

Mole,

It is baffling to me how you rock-throwing-at-Dyson independents believe the center of the universe begins at independent vacuum dealerships.  My guess is, no more than 3%-5% of all U.S. consumer vacuums sold here sell thru an independent.

You tell me...  why all the Dyson whining.  I know for a fact that Dyson’s sell well at dealers if a dealer chooses to put some thought into it and resolves not making the margins like their other [hyped] vacuums.

As for the excess inventory...  sell it off and sell only Dyson’s folks want.  If given a chance, the neighboring folks would love to support their local retailers and if treated right, then they tell their neighbors.  Dyson is not the problem, the lack of a hefty margin and lack of bag and belt replacement buys are.  Additionally, it is my understanding independents can match price (bundle) like big box.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Excuse me MOLE for answering, but now that we know DIB is a dyson pawn I feel obligated to take his challenge.  THo I won't argue his GUESS amount which is WRONG!  I will argue that the bulk of all repaired vacuums 93-95 percent get the work done in the independent vacuum owned and operated stores regardless of where they are sold. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

And there we have it.  Indys do not or do not like to repair Dysons.  Therefore no profit from them.  Is it any wonder that the indys prefer all the others.  $$$$ in repair profits.

HARDSELL wrote:

No not quite HS.  The dyson repairs are too expensive costing $100 and more for clutch failures.  Dyson repair customers don't okay these repairs in the current economic times and/or are so upset with the dyson performance based on the exaggerated claims and/or worried the clutches will fail again, they trade in or leave unclaimed.  Oops, there goes another dyson refurb!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Recall HS that a past dyson poster here whose name has recently surfaced bragged that he would pay off his mortgage with dyson repairs.  Didn't happen.  Customers didn't pay for the repairs.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Maybe you should quit speaking for mole since it continues to make you look bad.  I believe he has a conspiracy judging from his words. Since you two speak for the indys there just may be a conspiracy.

mole wrote:

HS:

I'm retired from the vacuum store business.  Have been since 1992.  Tho I worked as an industry consultant up to 2006.  I speak for the indies of which MOLE is one.  Not for MOLE.  He does fine for himself with you dyson twins.

Carmine D.

It's moved.

Yes, DIB and its made by the same company that makes the 2 wheel barrow for LOWE's: Jackson.  Back to the beginning.  The upshot of the ballbarrow is a 2 wheel barrow with 2X the capacity as the ballbarrow and less expensive in price.

Thank you.

Carmine D.

Poster's Note: Response to DIB who posted a picture of a Jackson one wheel barrow here on the thread.  Subsequently moved.

BTW, DIB I got you so mixed up you posted on the wrong thread.  Or perhaps, you did so intentionally since you can't dispute the facts I posted on either, so you revert to confuse the issues!  Good dyson strategy.

Carmine D.

Poster's Note:  DIB moved the post to the correct thread.  Dazed by the overwhelming volume of facts about wheel barrows that I provided to him, he posted responses on the wrong thread. 

CarmineD wrote:

That is like any repairman who quit in 1992.  So much more technology in a few years that you are lost.  OTH, Dyson is the only new technology in vacuums. 

I know about the consulting.  Dyson shoved a vac up your sitter and you still have trouble sitting. Where you used to sit you now have to stand.

Well HS you know what us old vacuum independents alwys say:  IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING, YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING.  How's that working for you and DIB?

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

You should too!

Carmine D.

DIB,

In reading about the statement "Never Loses Suction" , I see a big error and that is all cleaners can say they never lose suction . If you seal the suction of any vacuum with an inches of waterlift gage it will read the same reading everytime full of dirt or not. That is how Filter Queen had shown people no loss of suction in their bagless vacuum for years.

Dyson shows 250 Airwatts on the DC-14 , 220 Airwatts DC-17 , 135 Airwatts DC-24,  220 Airwatts DC-25 ( the ball) , and 245 Airwatts  DC-28. That was the suction of many cleaners back in 1990. Today there are machines with much more than that. Aren't you regressing a bit ?

                                                                                        Procare

procare wrote:

Hello Procare:

Welcome.  I agree and add that the filter maintenance [washing in tap water with 24 hours plus for dry time] on dyson's latest and greatest DC28 is 3 months for for pre/final filters.  Regressed here too from the 6 or more months previous cleaning schedules for dysons.  I suspect the reduction in suction power requires more frequent filter cleaning to allow normal operation.  With an increase in price too.  $600. 

Carmine D.

  The DC-28 sounds like it is not made for the American carpets.With the pneumatic acuator and STIFF brushes going deeper into the pile a couple of things would happen.  ONE ) The carpet would be frayed in a year's use and  TWO) airflow would be deminished because of the seal it would cause. Our carpets, the majority have a plastic moisture barrier to keep water from going through because of hot water extraction. In the earlier carpets they breath due to jute back carpeting. That is why older Kirby s could seal to the floor and clean , today they need air openings to let airflow.

                                                                                                                            Procare

procare wrote:
Procare,

How do you think NAD would respond to the old Filter Queens (rep’s) claims of "No loss of suction" if advertised today?  Today FQ does not advertise this claim, because scientifically it’s old practices and claims (you describe) can be proven false. The vac world had and still has plenty of con men.

When you compare today's Dyson’s to other vacuums, you failed to mention that paper media or like vacuums quickly choke/d and their advertised performance dropped (suction drop).  Why did you not mention this?

The masses agree with Dyson, that is, they know all filter media clog and loose performance/huge performance loss.  The sack N choke dealers and sack N choke enthusiast can kick and scream about Dyson all they want, but the manufacturers they favor or represent can’t do a dam thing about it.  They can’t prove their sacks don’t choke and can't prove their products don’t loose performance.  Since Dyson launched in 2002 sack N choke manufacturers have not taken advantage of the powerful and mighty NAD to stop Dyson's claims.  Why?  Promoting sack N choke vacuums as new and exciting is regressing a bit, don't you think?


DIB

DIB:

Why are dyson dealers discounting DC28's already, just a month into the launch?  At one time, dyson was adamant about maintaining MSRP on the latest and greatest.  What's happening now?  Price wars so soon on the DC28?  HSN claiming falsely it has exclusive sales on the new dyson airmuscle technology and selling for $599.  Dyson bull shined HSN?  Dealers are discounting the airmuscle for $509-$529.  Is this dyson approved?  How will this sit with HSN buyers who pay $599 under false pretenses and claims only to find that other retailers are selling cheaper?  Can you answer these questions?  Careful.  No half truths and lies allowed here by order of your twin HS. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Why is Oreck reducing prices, throwing in extra freebies and selling in BB stores?  Sounds as if they are getting desperate.

HARDSELL wrote:

Unlike you, who can't own up and answer the dyson's price wars on the DC28 so you divert to ORECK, I'll answer your question.  Simple.  Expand and conquer.  ORECK is looking to score sales in retailers' stores like COSTCO as these retailers cull dysons from their shelves and make room for better vacuum sellers.  Go with the business man and brand that has a 45 year rep in the industry.  Scrub the failing newbie that wishes he did. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You directed the question to DIB.  No diversion. Just a simple observation.

If I had an Oreck store I would be pithed.  Same as the indys are with Dyson for bypassing them.  Of course you think it is OK for Oreck.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

You and your twin constantly run interference with others' posts as diversion when the pressure mounts.

Remember ORECK doesn't ahve to depend on third party retailers for sales like dyson does.  Whatever sales ORECK makes in COSTCO, Penny's, BEST BUY, etc is icing on the cake.  The bulk of its annual sales are directly thru ORECK/ORECK stores.  Too bad James didn't take a page from ORECK's business model. 

Carmine D.