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DysonInventsBig


Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454


Original Message   Jun 28, 2008 12:41 am

Dyson is in the news frequently and so a dedicated thread.

.

This message was modified Aug 2, 2008 by DysonInventsBig



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DysonInventsBig


Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454


Reply #486   Jan 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Venson wrote:
Hi DIB,

Please take a look at the following link -- http://www.137.com/museum/airway.htm

You will be led to an image of one of the ealiest innovation in electric vacuum cleaners.  It is the Air-Way upright vacuum that I mentioned in an earlier post. I believe.  This Air-Way vacuum originally began with just a straight suction nozzle but all, the way back in the late 1920s somebody got the idea to make what had to be the first electric power nozzle.

This idea did not seem to validate itself until the very latter 1950s.  Imagine an Electrolux XXX or Hoover Aerodyne tank-type fitted with one of these.  Then again  . . . To everything there is a season  . . .

In the nearer past Hoover produced a PN for am series of canisters that that allowed you to lowerr an actual brush strip for cleaning bare floors. They also supplied for one stick vac model.  'Tis true I -- I owned one.

Someone please correct me if my memory has failed but I believe circa 1970-something Panasonic canisters used a plastic blade on its PNs. 

Plastic or rubber blades in in the past 50 years in general have usually only been used for "squeegee" tools meant to remove fluids from hard flooring.  Pardon my presumptuousness, but the standard for hard floor cleaning has been either natural or synthetic bristle used to compose brush strips intended to aid vacuum cleaning hard flooring.  In my opinion, plain old plastic strips tend to moreso push whatever is loose on a dry floor that dislodge adherent matter as well as a for real brush strips do.

Venson

Venson,

Do you see the similarities?        DIB



Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900


Reply #487   Jan 17, 2009 5:33 pm
DysonInventsBig wrote:
Venson,

Do you see the similarities?        DIB


Hi DIB,

Of course I noted the similarities even though the Air-Way was on the market way before Lord Dyson was born.  Did you notice that no one is suing Dyson?

Best,

Venson
DysonInventsBig


Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454


Reply #488   Jan 18, 2009 3:24 am
Venson,

Implying Dyson is lawsuit happy?...
Sir James has never sued anyone that did not have it comin.  It’s a beautiful thing when the little guy is protected by laws and that these laws and fair minded juries can bring wealthy thieving bullies to their knees.

Dyson sees value whereas his competitors do not...
If the Airway had any design or utility patent protection on this nozzle, the patent[s] would of expired around 1945.   Typical of the innovative lazy manufacturers... they dismiss good ideas (see no value in the old Airway nozzle) whereas Dyson resurrects it, improves it, applies it in a different way, proves an untapped market and proves it to be a money maker.  And only then do the lazy make their somewhat-steerable's, which turn out to be based on 1930's technologies.  Pathetic.


DIB
This message was modified Jan 18, 2009 by DysonInventsBig



Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900


Reply #489   Jan 18, 2009 6:18 am
DysonInventsBig wrote:
Venson,

Implying Dyson is lawsuit happy?...
Sir James has never sued anyone that did not have it comin.  It’s a beautiful thing when the little guy is protected by laws and that these laws and fair minded juries can bring wealthy thieving bullies to their knees.

Dyson sees value whereas his competitors do not...
If the Airway had any design or utility patent protection on this nozzle, the patent[s] would of expired around 1945.   Typical of the innovative lazy manufacturers... they dismiss good ideas (see no value in the old Airway nozzle) whereas Dyson resurrects it, improves it, applies it in a different way, proves an untapped market and proves it to be a money maker.  And only then do the lazy make their somewhat-steerable's, which turn out to be based on 1930's technologies.  Pathetic.


DIB

DIB, come on already.  I was just teasing you a bit.  HOWEVER . . .

I do think Dyson -- especially in light of recent reports claiming the company is attempting to bring others like LG to court for product that isn't even on the market yet -- may well be lawsuit happy.  As well, may I ask how can Dyson be worth the 1.5 billion dollars you estimate and still be "the little guy" in court?  Anyway . . .

In the instance of the Air-Way it isn't about Dyson who, by the way also produces "non-steerables".  It's all about Air-Way.  Thinking selling jargon, the Air-Way apparently was the first "two-motor system" vacuum and, if you will, the first maker of a "power nozzle".  As earlier mentioned, I am surprised that adaptations and, pardon the pun, new spins didn't catch on much earlier in the game despite the Hoover sent mentioned in an earlier post.  Though a separate device of some advantage, a good number of years passed before we saw Electrolux or the maker of Sears and Whirlpool vacuums provide canisters with practical power nozzles and even years more for two-motor clean-air uprights to show up.  And there's been a definite advantage in both.

I hardly see many of what I view as illustrious vacuum makers as lazy.  Electrolux lazy?  This is the company whose attachment design made best use of little old 500 watt or less motors.  Was the company also lazy when it came up with that little but very sophisticated mechanical device that shut the machine off when the bag was full?  The components weren't much.  Just a rubber diaphragm, a little tubing and a lever. Anyone could have thought of it I guess.

In past, vacuum companies that wanted to succeed strove to develop product that was set apart from what the next guy made.  That is how we ended up with Hoovers, Rexairs, Compacts, Eurekas, Electroluxes, Filter Queens, Air-ways, Whirlpool/Kenmores, Kirbys, Bisons and countless other brands.

If in current times times there is evidence of laziness it is due to the greater desire to rake in cash than make good product.  Dyson is probably just as guilty of this as any other vacuum manufacturer.

Venson
CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894


Reply #490   Jan 19, 2009 7:52 am
As well, may I ask how can Dyson be worth the 1.5 billion dollars you estimate and still be "the little guy" in court? 

Hi Venson:

As I recall, dyson wasn't the little guy in the legal case with Kenneth J., an engineering student, over the owner of the rights to a ball wheel facilitator.  Kenneth J. patented the invention over 10 years before dyson's DC15.  Dyson employed a high powered NY law firm with 3 names, in 3 piece suits and all 3 present.  In addition to a cadre of in-house dyson lawyers.  The dyson legal representation occupied all the seats in the hearing room.  Kenneth J. lost on a technicality.  But won, I believe, and still winning in the courts of street justice.

James should have, as the proverbial little guy advocate, given Kenneth J. a dyson job, and made the patent for his newly hired employee retroactive.  It would have cost dyson alot less.  And a fair compromise for both parties.  Of course, the NY lawyers probably bill out at $10,000 an hour each not counting expenses.  Had to cost dyson a small fortune to win that case, bearly.

Carmine D.

This message was modified Jan 19, 2009 by CarmineD
DysonInventsBig


Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454


Reply #491   Jan 20, 2009 1:44 am
Model2 wrote:
Hi DIB,

the Airway vacuum I refer to doesn't ride on a roller or a ball; in comparing it to the Slim, I referred to more general similarities between the two machines:

  • they both have rear wheels for stability which aren't used when vacuuming - the Slims retract automatically, the Air-Ways are clear of the floor when you're holding it for use
  • they're both slim-profile, lightweight uprights
  • the Air-Way rides on a floorhead which has two wheels, meaning it is possible to steer the cleaner more easily than a conventional, 4-wheeled upright. The swivel-neck means the cleaner can be turned on its side for doing underneath low furniture
  • they both have change-over valves which divert suction down the handle for 'above-floor' cleaning - the Air-Ways being a round celluloid dial you turn manually; the Dysons being automatic. The Air-Way has a wide, hollow handle, which you can affix a hose to for 'above floor' cleaning
  • stylistically the floorhead on the Slim is VERY reminiscent of the one used on the Air-Way twin-motor models

The biggest difference between the Airway and the Slim is that Airway introduced disposable bags, and Dyson introduced a system which made them obsolete! When I first saw the Slim, my impression was that the Dyson designers and engineers had looked at the innovative Air-Way, and updated it for the new millennium, taking its overall design and features and making them more user-friendly. Here's a set of pictures of my Air-Way 'Fleetwood Special':


Model2,

Thanks for your scans, links and sharing of history.  I'd like to hear more of the Air-Way v. Hoover someday.  Surely Dyson would prefer to be completely original, when he can and if he can.  Below is a carpet washer patent that uses a supporting assembly too.  The DC18 roller is pure genius, who would of thought a tiny roller could make a this vacuum turn as well as it does.        DIB



DysonInventsBig


Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454


Reply #492   Jan 20, 2009 3:22 pm
Venson wrote:
DIB, come on already.  I was just teasing you a bit.  HOWEVER . . .

I do think Dyson -- especially in light of recent reports claiming the company is attempting to bring others like LG to court for product that isn't even on the market yet -- may well be lawsuit happy.  As well, may I ask how can Dyson be worth the 1.5 billion dollars you estimate and still be "the little guy" in court?  Anyway . . .

In the instance of the Air-Way it isn't about Dyson who, by the way also produces "non-steerables".  It's all about Air-Way.  Thinking selling jargon, the Air-Way apparently was the first "two-motor system" vacuum and, if you will, the first maker of a "power nozzle".  As earlier mentioned, I am surprised that adaptations and, pardon the pun, new spins didn't catch on much earlier in the game despite the Hoover sent mentioned in an earlier post.  Though a separate device of some advantage, a good number of years passed before we saw Electrolux or the maker of Sears and Whirlpool vacuums provide canisters with practical power nozzles and even years more for two-motor clean-air uprights to show up.  And there's been a definite advantage in both.

I hardly see many of what I view as illustrious vacuum makers as lazy.  Electrolux lazy?  This is the company whose attachment design made best use of little old 500 watt or less motors.  Was the company also lazy when it came up with that little but very sophisticated mechanical device that shut the machine off when the bag was full?  The components weren't much.  Just a rubber diaphragm, a little tubing and a lever. Anyone could have thought of it I guess.

In past, vacuum companies that wanted to succeed strove to develop product that was set apart from what the next guy made.  That is how we ended up with Hoovers, Rexairs, Compacts, Eurekas, Electroluxes, Filter Queens, Air-ways, Whirlpool/Kenmores, Kirbys, Bisons and countless other brands.

If in current times times there is evidence of laziness it is due to the greater desire to rake in cash than make good product.  Dyson is probably just as guilty of this as any other vacuum manufacturer.

Venson
Venson,

Mocking Dyson in the past would certainly frame my conversations somewhat differently.  Are you going non-mocking of Dyson from here on out?

Typically the way I work is to learn my topic[s] and then discuss.  I research much.  I am fairly sure the lawsuit is over sequential separation (DC22 - Core + Root) and if so, Dyson’s been there first.

When a $1.22b guy stands next a richer and/or richer and more powerful $20-$24b (state sponsored?) corporation, it can be downright frightening.  LG sells $12b just to North America.

Re: lazy manufacturing.
You had to travel half way around the world to Electrolux as your premiere example of - vacuum makers are not lazy.  Certainly the U.S. vac makers of the last 10 years did little to nothing...  This is about it...  Turn vac on > the 70-80 year old brush roll does it’s thing > motor suctions > and a bag filters.  Am I missing something?  Certainly this is how the masses viewed a vacuum cleaners function until Dyson.

DIB


Venson


Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900


Reply #493   Jan 20, 2009 4:12 pm
DysonInventsBig wrote:
Venson,

Mocking Dyson in the past would certainly frame my conversations somewhat differently.  Are you going non-mocking of Dyson from here on out?

Re: lazy manufacturing.
You had to travel half way around the world to Electrolux as your premiere example of - vacuum makers are not lazy.  Certainly the U.S. vac makers of the last 10 years did little to nothing...  This is about it...  Turn vac on > the 70-80 year old brush roll does it’s thing > motor suctions > and a bag filters.  Am I missing something?  Certainly this is how the masses viewed a vacuum cleaners function until Dyson.

DIB

Hi DIB,

Of course not.  Though you may consder my having a chuckle or two due to Dyson stories that I find peculiar as blasphemous -- Dyson is not God.  Nor is any other vacuum manufacturer.

AND -- you mention only my mention of Electrolux. AND -- how did I go halfway round the world pointing a vacuum that has been literally historic for decades upon decades here in the United
States?  To go into detail about years and years of  innovation and invention regarding all the other vacuums brands I listed would be redundant and boring here as there are so many veteran sales and repair people here who through personal experience know these brands and their history thoroughly.

As well, trust me the masses are no wiser with the coming of Dyson.  Quoting MOLE again -- to the larger part of us a vacuum is still just a vacuum.  There is still a large large amount of the public that ask, "What do I need a vacuum for?  I don't have any rugs."  When a vacuum is acquired the main issue of "function" remains whatever the buyer needs it to do not what must be done to protect the investment or prolong its service. 

What changed with bagless option,  in general,l is that people are led to believe there  is NO maintneance required.  The person on the floor in stores where these machines are being sold usually feels no great need to go into detail beyond, "You just take off the container and dump it." 

I have a cousin -- well educated no less -- that has the same idea and came by it honest.  Her mother, whom I loved dearly was probably one of the greatest vacuum killers I've ever known.   New or used, high-end, low-end, built like a battle ship or of flimsy plastic -- any vacuum that made six months in her house merited somebody's seal of approval.  Apple not falling far from the tree, her aforementioned offspring didn't splurge on a Dyson, just a low priced DirtDevil.  Seems it didn't strike her to empty the machine much or check the drive belt. When I pointed this out her reply was, "But it's bagless!"  

The upside to all this was, any family Cousin Venson belongs to need not fear or despair regarding the ills of their vacuum . . . I fixed it and its working well again.  BUT I can't belong to everyone.

Venson
DysonInventsBig


Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454


Reply #494   Jan 20, 2009 5:58 pm
Hi Venson,

Agreed, having a laugh is not blaspheme.

Steve Jobs once said...  “Give people what they want most.”  ... it is the “most” part that vac manufacturers have not quite figured out.  Dyson did.

DIB


CarmineD


Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894


Reply #495   Jan 20, 2009 7:04 pm
DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi Venson,

Agreed, having a laugh is not blaspheme.

Steve Jobs once said...  “Give people what they want most.”  ... it is the “most” part that vac manufacturers have not quite figured out.  Dyson did.

DIB



As an aside on your quote, DIB, hopefully Jobs will follow his own advice and speak candidly with his stakeholders and stockholders who want to know about his health concerns and issues.  As a CEO who is singularly identified with APPLE, he owes them honesty and forthrightness.  So far, he hasn't provided them with the information they need to know about his future with the company.

Carmine D.

This message was modified Jan 20, 2009 by CarmineD
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