Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

Marshal
The intermixing of the cost and or justification of options on the machine when you as a consumer are being told what they are, but the thing you are not being told is the actual horsepower,  it can be a hidden element  .. as example drift cutters are not a hidden element.  so why mix it in with the actual problem being  false advertized horsepower,  the other options are not being advertized falsly  but the horsepower is  so the issue is the actual horsepower   not the options

Ben07

But, different people look at things in different ways Ben. I don't know if I would call it dragging this issue through the mud but instead just expressing different ways they choose to think about it for whatever reason.

On a nother note, call me stubborn, skeptical, or just someone thinking we don't have the whole complete story for some reason but, I am still not 100% convinced that all of these engines put out identicle HP and Torque. I'm not disputing anything told anyone or anything posted either. From all we have seen, It sure looks that way! I'm just pig headed I guess. LOL

Marshall if you review my edit of your quote in the above.  I agree with you and feel the same way.  I believe we are all in the same ball-park.  And I would caution that saying all of these engines are mis-badged is not a way of solving it.  If we find some engines are badged correctly, well that does not prove anything, because that is what they are suppose to be doing.  It is the cases where they are falsly advertized.  And in the cases that people have been investigating it seems to go a step further.  They don't mistate it once, like it could be an error or something.  They are so bold and blatent they don't worry about putting all kind of levels on it.   (i.e. 9hp same as a 10,10.5, 11 etc) 

Even if it is now not an epidemic, the fox still has the keys to the hen house.  You are saying you are a skeptic, well so am I  but what I am worrying about is the foxs' appetite. (and his friends appetite's, this could establish precedent for all types of products)

Ben07 

The tech I spoke with in the engine department told me that it is entirely possible that there are engines out there rated at 12 HP and labled 9HP!

I pushed him on it further, he kept to his story and said yes, downlabling is something that is done. He defended it by saying you get more than you paid for. I pressed him saying that I had to buy more machine than I wanted to get 12HP. I told him I wanted a smaller frame with more HP and could have received that for less money than I spent. He thought about it and hesitantly agreed with me. I did not speak of any engines other than the 20G414011E1 snow engines.

I am now convinced.

A lot of people started this and contributed to it heavily.  Congradulations,  It's a pleasure to be in here with youns.

(Youns that is a Pittsburgh word)

So Marshall why don Marc or Richie, or  yourself start a new thread called Downlabeling of HP ..   Just a suggestion to help center this thing.  And that way they will send the asassins to your house.

Ben07

ANOTHER THREAD? NO, I DON'T THINK I PERSONALLY WILL START ONE, DON'T WANT TO COME OFF AS BASHING BRIGGS OR ANYTHING, SOMEONE MAY TAKE IT THAT WAY. THE POSITIVE SIDE IS THAT THE PEOPLE WITH 9, 10 AND 11 HP LABLED ENGINES HAVE MORE POWER THAN THEY THOUGHT. THE BAD NEWS IS, IF THEY WANTED A LESSER MACHINE WITH 9HP OR 12 HP, THEY DIDN'T GET IT.

Ben,

I have my doubts if you'll actually be able to find information on Tecumseh or Honda, or even Kohler doing this same exact unethical business practice to this extent.  The reason being is that Briggs owns Simplicity.  The actual overhead for them to do what they do I'm sure is a marginal cost at best on their part.  Sure is a good way for them to make their snowblowers out perform anything else.  But there is certainly additional costs involved to own one, even if it's their lower end 2-stage blower.  I'm glad I'm not naive enough to believe that no matter what tier snowblower you are buying from them, you are being GIVEN a 12 HP by any stretch of the imagination and actually paying for the size the sticker says.  This is the part I have the problem with when it comes to Simplicity.  The underlining issue was just the fact none of these engines put out the rated horse power.  Funny where all this has lead us. 

The Tec OHV engines, 8, 9, 10, and 11 HP all have the same displacement, stroke, bore, and weight!!

Fishey to me!!!!!!

I suspect the same thing is going on with them also.

                                                                      Fred