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mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Conversation with Simplicity
Original Message   Feb 21, 2005 3:59 pm
Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

This message was modified Mar 2, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
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snowshoveler


tides in dirts out surfs up

Location: bridgewater nova scotia...aka the swamp
Joined: Jan 3, 2003
Points: 1261

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #55   Feb 23, 2005 6:57 pm
im thinking briggs may have got cought with their hand in the cookie jar.

can you say busted.

im starting to smell a rat here.

i dont know  how a 9 horsepower can be the axact same one as a12 horsepower.

better make more popcorn...

and i have been using the butter on the snowdance pole.

later chris   

craftsman 10/28 snowblower with tracks   husky 372xpg chainsaw   sachs dolmar bc212 bushsaw   mondo trimmer   monster tractor with trailer    cheep wheelbarro and couple shovels and a partridge in a pear tree 
mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #56   Feb 23, 2005 7:46 pm
Hi again! Left for dinner-

Marshall- Notice the description given as a series. If you don't have the exact spec# you can't make a comparrison in the Briggs line because you are then comparing apples to oranges. This whole discussion about Simplicity and Snapper has at it's core the fact that the engines are all the same exact spec #. If you go carefully through the Briggs Replacement Engine Catalog you will find that they make the same hp engines in different displacements. Thats why I keep comming back to the spec #. No one has yet disputed that the same spec# in a Briggs is not the same engine regardless of hp stickers. The discussion of Tecumseh I feel is off topic as is the comparrison of L-Head to OHV. I say this respectfully to the other posters who have mentioned those other issues. In short I think we got em' by the spec#'s. But I repeat that in terms of purchasing one model  ope over another there are material differences that account for price differential.   

Tom- the 20D4140017 or 20D4140019 would not be an exact replacement for your 1060DLXE because those typeD engines have a cast iron bore and your type G engine has an aluminum bore.By the way the 0017 and 0019 differ in shaft size only.

Of intrest to all of us re: Tom's inquiry with Briggs is what would happen if he asked for a replacement for a 12hp engine Simplicity 1280E. If he used the Spec# on the 1280E's engine the Briggs replacement catalog couldn't help him past 10hp because they don't list any 12hp. engines.

Marc

SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #57   Feb 23, 2005 7:59 pm
Marc, got it, that makes sense.
MissSnowshoveler


If you don't have free speech, what do you have?

Location: NS
Joined: Feb 5, 2005
Points: 706

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #58   Feb 23, 2005 8:09 pm
mml4 wrote:
 The discussion of Tecumseh I feel is off topic as is the comparrison of L-Head to OHV. I say this respectfully to the other posters who have mentioned those other issues.



In the Tecumseh type thing I was using that as a reference to show how easy it was to change hp with very little effort or as they would put a switch of a number or two.  As there is no different numbers in the Snapper/Simplicity line, Tecumseh was the next best thing.

I also know that there is no comparison in L heads and OHV.  I do work around these engines everyday and would prefer to see the OHV anyday.  It's hard for me to sit here and explain it - I can show it to you if I have several books spread across to point to the different numbers or even the micro fiche (yeah those are still around) all the resources we have at work - and still no answers.  Nobody's numbers are the same.

With that being said - I'm going to nurse my headache - tomorrow's going to be a long day.

Sherri

If you don't have free speech, what do you have?
Ben07


The more you know about something, the more you find there is to know.

Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Points: 178

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #59   Feb 24, 2005 8:28 am
Just a Thought.   You all are doing  well in the HP research pls keep going and Thanks much,  But I was thinking of maybe another avenue to gain some Info.  Does anybody know of anyone who races go-carts, clubs, organizations.  I am just figuring that they may put a lot of those youngins by the rules out there in horsepower brackets.  Obviously you couldn,t put one of them out there in something that could be dangerous.  and it may be go-carts, but it would be competitive and you couldn' be out there in an 8hp an under bracket, and all of a sudden one of the newer maybe misbadged engines get on the track with 50 percent actual more HP and starts blowing every one off the road.  This could be much more noticable than on say a snowblower, cause those cart motors are running through the whole operating range of RPM.  So maybe they have already went thru some of this and they would maybe of had to at least partially solve some of it to keep it regulated better in their sport 

Just a thought

Ben07

This message was modified Feb 24, 2005 by Ben07


Ariens 8524LE, Toro CCR2000, Jacobsen S-B S-blowers, Generac 10hp Gen-convt. to N.G., 5 L-boys(D's F's &Dura( 74,77,80,88,00), Antiq. 1960 AYP 20 in. mag w 3.5 Tech mower. Ryan/Ryobi gas Trim. AYP 205 gas blwr. Mac c-saw,Toro E-blwr, 2 Weed-E e. stg. trims. outboards, boats, util trail, 2 Jeeps 
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #60   Feb 24, 2005 9:06 am
Ben, good thinking.

I don't know anyone today that is doing it. I wonder if they use the following engines though? If so, it wouldn't help out cause much.

Briggs Racing engines.
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #61   Feb 24, 2005 9:33 am
Hi there Ben,

Good point you make but when it comes to racing, that can't happen.  When you join a racing club, you can't just show up to the track with any engine of your choice, unless it's during practice.  They usually start with a Briggs & Stratton class, say, a stock class, modified stock, open class and such.  They have a 2-stroke class as well.  The rules a racer must comply with in the first class mentioned is that you have to start with a Briggs 5 HP engine with an aluminum bore.  Typically, the carburetor is modified to run methanol and blueprinted and flow rates optimized.  

Governors are completely removed and the stock exhaust is replaced with a header of varying lengths, say, 8"-14" long.  Whatever class you race in, since the rules mandate the limit of modifications in a particular class, if someone suddenly stood very far out ahead of the rest, you can bet the officials will corral you into the tech area and you'll have to break the engine down in front of them.  They don't play games, believe me.  They did it to me in the 2-stroke class.  I had a Yamaha 100cc engine, when the rest had 135's, and I still managed to come in 3rd place in one of my first races.  Since I was so new, they felt I could not have possibly done as well as I did, I must have been cheating.  It was later determined that I simply out drove the other 7 racers behind me, and most were veteran racers, which didn't make them happy.  They became my friend real fast when they realized I was also the only racer to have a real radar gun to aid in fine tuning gear changes and such

It doesn't matter that it's only Kart racing.  They are a very serious bunch and don't play games when points stand in the balance. 



Richie
nibbler


Joined: Mar 5, 2004
Points: 751

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #62   Feb 24, 2005 10:00 am
MissSnowshoveler wrote:
The Tecumseh l-heads used a different thickness of head gasket to make their hp.  The thinner it is the higher the hp.

I'm just grasping at straws.  I know there has to be some difference somewhere, looking at the IPL's for the Snapper machines, there are only a few parts different.  The gear boxes are the same - so they're not picking up hp there.  I'm still trying to fight my way through a group of men on the other end of the phone that think an air head just called them to find out some info.  Now that the Technicians got me PO'd I'm going to keep digging.

Sherri


I don't think you can "pick up" HP in a gear box unless your referring to losses due to friction. A gear box doesn't change the amount of energy per time ( HP, KWH, joules per second, whatever) it changes the speed and the torque. One goes up the other goes down.

What are the main things that affect HP?

1. displacement
2. compression
3. fuel

Anything else?

BTW here's the expalnation of the B&S numbering scheme. http://www.briggsandstratton.com/display/router.asp?DocID=65324
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #63   Feb 24, 2005 10:19 am
Add "Air" to the equation.
jubol


Location: Dover, De
Joined: Oct 3, 2003
Points: 1558

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #64   Feb 24, 2005 10:29 am
 Marshall,

Make that "Density" of air.

Colder air is more dense than warm.

Atmospheric pressure and altitude affect HP.

At 18,000 feet above sea  level, pressure is 1/2 of what it is at sea level.

Therefor an engine ,8HP at sea level only produces 4 HP at 18,000 feet of altitude.

That is why recip engines need superchargers for high altitude flying.

                     Fred  

This message was modified Feb 24, 2005 by jubol


Husqvarna STE927(11.5HP) snowblower,  MTD Pro Series 18/42 Lawnmower, MTD 6.5 HP  Self Prop Lawn Mower,  Weedeater 1500 Blower, Web Gensis  2000 
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