Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

okay i had trouble beleiving this so i checked our in stock snapper snowblowers.

9 horse 10 horse ..exact same model and type numbers ...and now you say the 11 and 12 are the sameas the 9 and 10.

so are they all 12 horsepower.

the chassis on our snappers are all the same and the gear boxes are the same ,so the only difference from the 9 to the 11 is the width of the bucket.wow ,no wonder they work well.they certainly dont lack for power.

this justs keeps getting better all the time.

and briggs and tecumseh school is getting closer all the time,and i have some questions for the instructors-technical help.

later chris

jubol wrote:

Jubol I hope what you are chicking into is close to correct, as this was my description of my 8.5 before you made that post

"I know 10's and I know 8's and I know 5's in this type machine.  This thing was blowing at the strength of at least a 10 or 11 hp machine minimum." 

The reason being, I think I was very accurate with my observation,  but I am sure there are a few who if they don't follow it close will yea  "Yeah Right" 

Thxfor your help as I am unable to do research at this time

Ben07

P s If I find out it is an 11 I will softly freak.  I won't be too loud cause my kid will find out and steal it for a go-cart

snowshoveler wrote:
Two years ago I wanted to purchase a Simplicity.  The price of $1,400.00 I recall is what it cost.  I felt it was just too much money for an 8 or 9 HP machine.  Assuming this was going on back then, and given the fact these OPE manufacurers have been messing around for so long, and I have no reason to think otherwise, it answers the question why the price was so high.  This situation puts you on the other side of the street; you think you are getting say, a 9HP engine, but are really getting perhaps a 12 HP.  Bottom line is that nothing is free and one way or another you are paying a great deal of money for it.  Price a 12 HP Briggs engine with previsions for a lighting alternator and 110 volt electric start and you'll see what I mean.   It was still tough for me to walk away from the machine.  Once you grab the handle bars of a Simplicity, it just screams "tank"

I am out of my league here but offer this as a potential explanation.

The Snow Commander R-tek is rated at 7 hp while the 3650 is rated at 6.5 hp.  The difference according to Toro is due to the piston (two additional ports) and cylinder.

My Simplicity 1060 has the 20G414 engine.  Looking at the parts catalog there appears to be 4 piston sizes (standard, .01" oversize, .02" oversize and .03" oversize.)  Could this explain the difference in horsepower generated using the same engine displacement?

Hi Guys!

Tom-The question is do engines with the EXACT same spec # have different pistons? All of the Simplicity units between 9.5hp and 11hp we have verified as having the exact same spec#. The only one we have not eyeballed by one of our group is the 12 hp model.

At this point I am willing to take the word of the Simplicity Tech I spoke to over the phone who said they are all the same.

Chris- Is the type designation in the Snapper a "G" (aluminum bore) or a"D" (cast iron bore)?

I know I have tormented you guys with this stuff over the last few weeks and I promise I will not go off on another investigative crusade.But it became obvious to me today after looking at the Snapper web site that the Snappers are built out of the same parts bin as the Simplicity. The difference is the Snappers use the round stock handles throughout their large frame line as compared to Simplicitys' use of their signature "angle" bars on the 10, 11,12 and 13 hp models. Snapper doesen't offer the remote chute deflector and badges the engines with less hp for each auger width ex. 24" Snapper is 9hp,24"Simplicity is either 9.5 or 10 hp depending on which one of their 24" models you choose. We already know that the 9.5 and the 10 carry the same spec#. 28"Snapper is 10hp.,Simplicity 28" is 11hp.32" Snapper uses 11hp while the 32" Simplicity uses a 12hp.  The Snapper also uses the  12hp. on the 38" model where as Simplicity uses the 13hp on their 38". This is curious as it appears the 12hp is the same as the 9,10 and 11 while the 13hp is a larger displacement. The Snappers are at a  lower price point than the Simplicity and therefore if what we have found out is true are a terrific value.

Anxiously awaiting Chris'report on the Snapper type#

Marc

Tom,

Anyone here that has been ordering parts for their engines through a dealer will tell you the first thing you are asked is, "what's the spec number."  If the spec numbers are the same on the engines, they are the same inside and out.  Whatever the HP designation is, the parts, internal or otherwise, would be ordered according to that number. 

As a sales rep for a distributor who sells Simplicity and Snapper I have forwarded this thread to our technical guy with the suggestion he contact Simplicity for an explanation. Will keep you posted.

Pat

I'm hoping that if I can get enough dealer support that we can find out the whole deal.

Sherri

TomP wrote:

Hi Tom.  I am goin to try an answer your question from an automotive perspective.  Lot of people think if they  know the auto engine They can cover almost everything with small engine things.. That not true, cause small engine repair has a lot of area's in it's own .  where they use a  principal sometimes to a real higher and complicated level.  An example is Piston rings.  They use 3, and 2 and 1. for diff reasons.  So with that disclaimer I will try a general answer,  as the experts may be busy on you.

First lets seperate the 2 cycle from the 4 cycle engine, not good to combine them sometimes when reffering to even something similar, as the differences could come into play and confuse things.

The 2 cycle your toro's  when they say two additional ports, they don't mean in the piston, the ports are in the cylinder(probably), so two extra ports could be explained like having two valves in a auto engine or a 4 valves per cylinder engine,   except a two cycle has no valves it uses ports.  Why the piston would be different, I am not sure,  maybe it may have some recesses or cut's in the top of it to better allow for a 4 port application,  or maybe it is domed to creat higher compression.  not sure that maybe the only difference they may be indicating to you is just the ports in or thru the cylinder wall. so to answer why the piston is different there I don't know,  unless It is actually  just larger than the 6.5

The simplicity engine you are referring to I am assuming is like a 10 HP 4 cycle engine.

The standard and two level oversize piston would be probably when someone has to rebore a cylinder due to wear damage etc 

Another reason they carry them is for their own use at the factory.  WHEN THEY MACHINE THESE PISTONS THEY TURN THEM ON A LATHE,  SAY THE OPERATOR IS RUNNING 200 OF THEM,  THEY MAY HAVE HIM TURN 50 OF THEM DOWN LESS (sry for the caps)  When they machine these pistons they really don't mind too much leaving some them oversize, cause in a pinch they can grab them and recut them if they need them due to a sudden production line shortage. and also sell them for redicuously prices to people doing repairs.   And the other reason, most important 

is if they screw up their cylinders, get out of aligh due to the cylinder getting crimped when being pressed into the cylinder, or bored too much on an angle or a concentricity problem,  they may  remachine the cylinder walls  to save/salvage them, then they may  use the oversize piston ,  Yes I know then your displacement will be higher etc.  that is why you measure your piston and check for a stamping on parts,  etc etc .. They can and do sometimes do it.  And they can definately sell these engines commercially to say like your county government  ..  They buy  50 mowers to cut the parks,  they state in their big they will use some factory rework machines, however will give them all a little longer commercial warranty to make up for it.  No problem they are probably just as good as the one who didn't have the rework

 Miss SS,

         Would be nice to know on the Tec L heads, as they might be doing the same as Briggs.one engine, same specs, but different Hp'S

                                                                                         Fred