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mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Conversation with Simplicity
Original Message   Feb 21, 2005 3:59 pm
Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

This message was modified Mar 2, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
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robmints


Joined: May 13, 2003
Points: 4691

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #3   Feb 21, 2005 5:34 pm
That's interesting. Do they call them Power Built, or just Intek?

And you thought trying to buy a lawnmower was hard.

Can you find a good place on the barrel to put a magnet? Like in the deepest part of the fin. Might feel some magnetisim or not?
robmints


Joined: May 13, 2003
Points: 4691

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #4   Feb 21, 2005 5:52 pm
Does the information,or lack of, make you feel better or worse? Besides the headache.

Do you want an aluminum bore, or cast iron?

Is the tech guy going to try to find out if the model number you gave him a cast iron or aluminum bore?

My advise, don't let them dazzle you with sales talk. Decide what you want, and get it. There is no reason they should not be able to find out if it is an aluminium bore or not.
This message was modified Feb 21, 2005 by robmints
mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #5   Feb 21, 2005 8:29 pm
Hi Guys,

Briggs called me back a second time and confirmed that the spec I saw on the 10hp engine on the 1060DLXE #20G414011E1 was indeed an aluminum bore engine. This confirms what the Simplicity Tech said about the bore.

 One of our guys on the forum,Dantheman, owns an11hp Simplicity 1170E for which he wrote a review . If the spec# on his machine is the same 20G414011E1 that would be confirmation of the engines all being the same. I am hoping he reads this post and can take a look.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed concerning the bore but I'm wondering if thats' not just the tyranny of tradition. The pros' on the site didn't seem to be anywhere near as concerned about cylinder construction as I am.Chris and Pete definitely come out for the Briggs. Lint if memory serves me correctly was kind of in the middle. The thing I remember most was the post by Tecumcman who said he hoped he could retire before the next round of carburetor specfications come due. I also notice that nobody complains or has issues with the Briggs carb. I would like to get a cast Iron sleeve but to do that you have to buy a Tecumseh. I pretty much have eliminated that and therefore Ariens or Toro.

The choices are between Honda and Simplicity. Honda is a great machine with a cast iron sleeve but it has some issues. No differential or wheel disconnect is available. The handlebars are not high enough for people over 5'10" and the steel is  50% of the thickness of  Ariens or Simplicity. Before you get your nose out of joint I measured it with a calipers. Great machine but not for $2000 dollars. 

Marshall-2020? Well maybe before then! I'm retired with a computer and a telephone that has unlimited long distance.Striped Bass season doesen't open till April and its' too windy to fly my RC Airplanes.Whats' a guy to do???

Marc

This message was modified Feb 21, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
snowshoveler


tides in dirts out surfs up

Location: bridgewater nova scotia...aka the swamp
Joined: Jan 3, 2003
Points: 1261

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #6   Feb 21, 2005 8:33 pm
check out a snapper ...i beleive the 10 and 11 have the cast iron sleve .

but i will check the ones at work tommorow.now that i have the type numbers i can tell the diff.

later chris

craftsman 10/28 snowblower with tracks   husky 372xpg chainsaw   sachs dolmar bc212 bushsaw   mondo trimmer   monster tractor with trailer    cheep wheelbarro and couple shovels and a partridge in a pear tree 
mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #7   Feb 21, 2005 8:47 pm
This message was modified Feb 21, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #8   Feb 21, 2005 9:03 pm
Marc,

Great info!

Personally I think too much is made about OPE engines in general, whether it's snow, lawn, pressure washers, etc. I've learned to be most concerned with the build quality of the machines themselves, the way the decks are designed on mowers, etc. Maybe it would relate to how the augers, blades, impellers, etc. are made on snowblowers, I don't know?

I don't think there is a terrible engine made today between the major brands. Over all of the years I have been associated with this forum the one thing that stands out to me about engine performance and reliability is, maintenance and gas. I can count on one hand how many times I have read where someone lost an engine and not use all my fingers doing so. On the other hand, I have to use all of my fingers plus all of my toes to count the times I have heard people complaining about any certain engines and it turns out to be poor maintenance or bad fuel from neglect.

Point being, as long as the user has purchased an engine of appropriate size for the jobs it's used for and maintains the engine as well as the fuel, I'm willing to bet you would be hard pressed to actually document which brand is best, using breakdown alone as the criteria. I think it would take going many years down the road to get much of a difference in results. That said, there are other criteria that someone may find that separates the engines when choosing one.

I will say that with the heat of summer and dirty conditions of lawn mowing, I would want a cast iron liner though. I can honestly say that it would not be a deciding factor to me in a snowblower decision.
Ben07


The more you know about something, the more you find there is to know.

Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Points: 178

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #9   Feb 22, 2005 12:43 am

mml4 wrote:

Hi guys,

.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc


Marc   Fantastic research there.  Sorry about the headache.  But you got hard copy and verbal proof that the machines are being badged falsly.  I am sure as you know that has been coming up in many threads, by a few people.  I t has been met with. Can't be happening as there is a specific regulated test., Mechanically impossable,  don't really care as long as it runs and does the job,  just buy more and don't worry about it. 

Fact is they are doing it and it is a highly fraudulent process.  It should not be allowed to be happening.  It is also the give them an inch and what is to stop them from going further. 

To answer some of the above, it can be done despite the test,  use a general disclaimer,  It definately is mechanically possable,

don't really care as long as it does the job,  I really don't mind that one because that is personal preference.  If you want to turn a blind eye and rely on reputation and other peoples experiences, that is fine as there are a lot of things keeping everyone busy and impossable to look at everything under a microscope,   but the problem is the other reputations, and experiences are going to find and have a problem with the situation sooner or later.  The just buy more and don't worry about it, is the real riot here, don't get me wrong it is a decent strategy if things are on the up and up.( but the fact is when you are noticing things to be falsly advertized  you can now try to buy more and not get it,  same as throwing your money in the garbach can.  What really puts the icing on the cake is in this case the truth is when you  buy less is when you  actually get more.  

So the next rebuttal will be ok it's happening, but here is an example of how it can benefits me.  It's just too bad the guy buying more is helping to pay for mine.

This is a definate riot...  now I got a headache as i'm, lmaorof

Ben07 

 

 

This message was modified Feb 22, 2005 by Ben07


Ariens 8524LE, Toro CCR2000, Jacobsen S-B S-blowers, Generac 10hp Gen-convt. to N.G., 5 L-boys(D's F's &Dura( 74,77,80,88,00), Antiq. 1960 AYP 20 in. mag w 3.5 Tech mower. Ryan/Ryobi gas Trim. AYP 205 gas blwr. Mac c-saw,Toro E-blwr, 2 Weed-E e. stg. trims. outboards, boats, util trail, 2 Jeeps 
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #10   Feb 22, 2005 8:44 am
Ben07 wrote:

but the fact is when you are noticing things to be falsly advertized  you can now try to buy more and not get it,  same as throwing your money in the garbach can.  What really puts the icing on the cake is in this case the truth is when you  buy less is when you  actually get more.  


Hi Ben,

This is a very interesting discovery, but not totally surprising.  Where I myself have a problem with this is most likely what you were getting at.  What about the individual that decides to purchase one of these machines but feels he has to purchase the most powerful engine.  Look at the price differences between an 8 HP model as opposed to say, a 13 HP.  Usually the more expensive model comes with some extra bells and whistles, but certainly not worth many hundreds of dollars difference. 

This was one of many points I was trying to make on other posts I've made.  If possible, shop for the extra features that you feel are important to you and NOT for the engine size.  It seems that the more our forum members dig into this subject, more astonishing things are discovered and we end up with more questions than answers.    Add to the fact when you contact the manufacturer, and even they can't answer your questions clearly, is truly mind boggling and very suspicious to say the least.

Now all we have to do is come up with a way to change the system.  That alone is a mind boggling monumental task in and of itself. 



Richie
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #11   Feb 22, 2005 11:32 am
So, let me get this strait. You guys saying that you believe the 13HP has no more power than the 8HP?
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #12   Feb 22, 2005 11:57 am
"When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different."

Marshall,

I thought the Simplicity Representative over the phone that Marc spoke with made the above statement to him.  Actually the 13 HP was not included in the statement, my mistake.  But it did refer to the 9,10,11, and 12 HP models actually being the same engine just re-labeled

Richie
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