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mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 541

Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Original Message   Feb 18, 2005 2:23 pm
What is the purpose of sleeving the bore of a new engine with cast iron? The ohv Snow King Tecumsehs still have the sleeve while according to my dealer the Briggs Snow Intek does not.

I am aware of sleeving being used to keep in service engines that have been bored to the point that the cylinder walls are too thin. Again,why on a new engine?

Marc 

SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
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Gilsons


Let it snow, in southern Maine

Location: Southern Maine
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Points: 669

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #23   Feb 20, 2005 7:44 am
A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster.
*The steel sleeve will finish and wear better than aluminum but in a vertical piston application (like a snowblower)  wear should be trivial. I have seen horizaontal pistion cylinders (like some lawn tractors and RERs) show pronounced bottom side wear perhaps due to gravity.* With reasonable lube maintenance an aluminum cylinder will go the distatnce on a snowblower.
*Aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat hence the "cool bore" trade name.
* It's all about pricepoint and features.  If the OEM wants the cast iron cylinder as a selling point they spec the engine that way. If they want the lowes unit cost they go  all aluminum. I would not say it's all hype since the cast iron bore is a better engine, just not in a significant way for snowblower applications. At some point due to volume or design the manufacture may only offer one or the other on certain sizes.
* The B&S trype number details the specific feature set of an engine while the model describes the major features. The type leads to the governor spring/setting spec and as beat to death in another thread can put the engine in a different HP rate depending where the RPM setting falls on the torque curve and how the calculate out.  That being said 2 virtually identical engines can be selling with different HP ratings. Also like many specifications the advertised number will be something they can consistently meet/exceed. How much tolerance they hold in reseve can be adjusted for a price, or to win a contract.

Pete

Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #24   Feb 20, 2005 9:24 am
Gilsons wrote:
A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster.


Hi Pete,

I do know enough about cast iron cylinder sleeves Vs. aluminum to say that the answer can get complicated or even become a heated argument.  Keeping it simple, and using snowblowers as an example, what actually are the benefits of both?  When I look at cast iron, it's usually designed for I/C applications.  This enables rebuilding where aluminum blocks may not be worth the expense or not recommended. 

All things being equal, and an engine is never run low on oil, how many snowblower engines actually wear out and require rebuilding if they are not iron sleeve equipped? As for longevity, is it really worth the expense, if any?  If the cast iron sleeve came on a snowblower that had certain features that were very important to me, I wouldn't have a problem getting it, obviosly I wouldn't have a choice anyway.  I'm not sure I myself would put that feature as a must have simply as a homeowner.

Also, due to the severe weather conditions a snowblower is used, do these cast iron cylinder sleeves rust at all sitting for most of the year as opposed to aluminum.  Is it necessary to fog the cylinder at the end of the season?  As for aluminum, it's a porous metal and because of that, it does tarnish therefore it can corrode to some degree too. Aside from simply the rebuild factor, which I believe would rarely be the case for a homeowner, I'm not seeing "must have" benefits getting the iron. 

I'd have to say that if either of these type of engines blew after say, 10-12 years, It wouldn't be unreasonable for the homeowner to just say, "well, time for a new blower" Sorry for all the questions.

 

This message was modified Feb 20, 2005 by Richie


Richie
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #25   Feb 20, 2005 9:27 am
This message was modified Feb 20, 2005 by Richie


Richie
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #26   Feb 20, 2005 9:56 am
Out of all these walk behind lawn mower engines, the only two that have a cast iron bore are the LSQ Quantum I/C and the Intek Pro.

Now, I know I have personally seen some of these engines,
that do not have cast iron sleeves in the bore, run 4-8 hours a week 4-5 months a year in high heat and dirty conditions for years and years with proper maintenance. Granted they won't last as long before starting to smoke as the lined engines will, but I see no reason to believe that a snow engine without a liner is a deal breaker for purchasing by any means. Actually, I would make a bet most will be replacing something else on the snowblower before they would need to have the cylinder bored on their snow engine.



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Emmo


Joined: May 22, 2003
Points: 1065

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #27   Feb 20, 2005 10:54 am
The Intek Edge motor on my Snapper mower is also I/C.
This message was modified Feb 20, 2005 by Emmo
Gilsons


Let it snow, in southern Maine

Location: Southern Maine
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Points: 669

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #28   Feb 20, 2005 12:28 pm
Richie wrote:
Hi Pete,

I do know enough about cast iron cylinder sleeves Vs. aluminum to say that the answer can get complicated or even become a heated argument.  Keeping it simple, and using snowblowers as an example, what actually are the benefits of both?  When I look at cast iron, it's usually designed for I/C applications.  This enables rebuilding where aluminum blocks may not be worth the expense or not recommended. 

All things being equal, and an engine is never run low on oil, how many snowblower engines actually wear out and require rebuilding if they are not iron sleeve equipped? As for longevity, is it really worth the expense, if any?  If the cast iron sleeve came on a snowblower that had certain features that were very important to me, I wouldn't have a problem getting it, obviosly I wouldn't have a choice anyway.  I'm not sure I myself would put that feature as a must have simply as a homeowner.

Also, due to the severe weather conditions a snowblower is used, do these cast iron cylinder sleeves rust at all sitting for most of the year as opposed to aluminum.  Is it necessary to fog the cylinder at the end of the season?  As for aluminum, it's a porous metal and because of that, it does tarnish therefore it can corrode to some degree too. Aside from simply the rebuild factor, which I believe would rarely be the case for a homeowner, I'm not seeing "must have" benefits getting the iron. 

I'd have to say that if either of these type of engines blew after say, 10-12 years, It wouldn't be unreasonable for the homeowner to just say, "well, time for a new blower" Sorry for all the questions.

 


Richie... What's your point, I said the sleeve is a nice feature, not a deal buster. (for a snowblower)

What you mention about the sleeve rusting in the off season is an intersting question. I suspect that the typical lubricationalong with the chrome content would keep things oK for a spell. Many all iron blocks were built for many years.

As for your last point I feel sorry for the folks who bout a snowblower they are prepared to scrap at the 1 decade mark for the sake of an engine.

Pete

Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #29   Feb 20, 2005 1:09 pm
Gilsons wrote:
What you mention about the sleeve rusting in the off season is an intersting question.


I know you restore many classic snowblowers.  Since you get them, perhaps not running condition, I was curious if you have ever come across corroded or rusted cylinders for either of the type of engines being discussed. My point was more curiosity, whether you could elaborate beyond "not a deal buster."  Have you seen cylinders with this type of damage whether I/C or aluminum.  Certainly was not trying to get under your skin.

Richie
snowshoveler


tides in dirts out surfs up

Location: bridgewater nova scotia...aka the swamp
Joined: Jan 3, 2003
Points: 1261

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #30   Feb 21, 2005 5:42 pm
okay so i emailed briggs about this and got the answer...

it is type number sensitive..

12D300 cast iron liner

20D300 cast iron liner

20F400 cast iron liner

20A400 aluminum bore.

i also called technical services while i was on my lunch break,(the stuff i do for my friends).

tech i spoke with said all the intek engines are cast iron liners...i fired him on the spot.

he said only the mowers and tillers had the aluminum bores. still not impressed i advised him to get a bit better information.

he called me back after he called the "factory"and then told me it depends on the type numbers.

i mentioned that it is to hard for a consumer to get this info and that they have to change it in a hurry.

thats all for now.

later chris

craftsman 10/28 snowblower with tracks   husky 372xpg chainsaw   sachs dolmar bc212 bushsaw   mondo trimmer   monster tractor with trailer    cheep wheelbarro and couple shovels and a partridge in a pear tree 
robmints


Joined: May 13, 2003
Points: 4691

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #31   Feb 21, 2005 5:55 pm
Great info Chris. This should not be such a mystery, should it?
jubol


Location: Dover, De
Joined: Oct 3, 2003
Points: 1558

Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves
Reply #32   Feb 21, 2005 6:00 pm
Hey Rob,

   That was Snowshoveler with the Info!!

  Are we all getting old??

                           Fred

Husqvarna STE927(11.5HP) snowblower,  MTD Pro Series 18/42 Lawnmower, MTD 6.5 HP  Self Prop Lawn Mower,  Weedeater 1500 Blower, Web Gensis  2000 
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