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mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Original Message   Feb 5, 2005 8:17 am
These are the sounds issued forth from my beloved Tecumseh engines equipped with fixed Jets. I don't own one but my friend does on a machine I recomended and he constantly rags me about it. In an effort to get him off my back I have researched the following and these are the results:

1) The replacement carb for a medium frame Tecumseh is 632334A ( this is a part # that replaces a disontinued part but the blow up diagram of the replacement shows an adjustable main jet. Therefore I ASSUME it is adjustable.

2) The carburetor repair kit for this model is 632347 

I was able to secure a blowup diagram of this carb and the list of parts in the repair kit. It APPEARS all of the main jet parts are present in the kit.I NEED VERIFICATION If this includes the needle and the jet. 

If one were to remove the fixed jet from the current carb which I believe is the green plastic tube held in by O-rings and replace it with the adjustable jet and needle from the #632347 repair kit would it work? Could you retrofit the new bowl with the adjustable assembly or would you have to buy a new bowl?

If anybody could verify or correct my assumptions I would be most appreciative.

Marc

Just for the record -theHonda GX series engine on my power washer made the same spit, sputter,cough,blemph sounds due to it's fixed jet carb. Honda has addressed this problem by producing a line of altitude related jets. Another words if you want to richen up a Honda fixed jet carb parts are available. The carb will still be fixed jet but at a richer setting.

This message was modified Feb 5, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
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jubol


Location: Dover, De
Joined: Oct 3, 2003
Points: 1558

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #34   Feb 13, 2005 5:00 pm
 Richie,

      You remind me of what a good knife is!!

You go right to the heart and your "SHARP" ! !

I think the OPE makers on HP are blowing smoke also!!!

                                                                 Fred    

Husqvarna STE927(11.5HP) snowblower,  MTD Pro Series 18/42 Lawnmower, MTD 6.5 HP  Self Prop Lawn Mower,  Weedeater 1500 Blower, Web Gensis  2000 
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #35   Feb 13, 2005 5:49 pm
jubol wrote:
 Richie,

      You remind me of what a good knife is!!

You go right to the heart and your "SHARP" ! !

I think the OPE makers on HP are blowing smoke also!!!

                                                                 Fred    

Hi Fred,

I appreciate that comment, thank you.  I'm no different than anyone else on this forum.  I spend good money on OPE and when I come across these engine output power curve charts only to find that my 8 HP engine is not putting out that much HP, which in my mind I paid for an 8 HP, well, I've got a problem with that.  Add to the fact, as Ben mentioned, he tried to find specifications for his 8.5 HP Tecumseh engine, yet his research determines it's an 8 HP.  Well, I say these engine companies are really pushing their luck these days.  They had better get it into their little heads that the consumer is armed with the internet, not to mention forums such as this where we can all compare notes. 

What good is it for an engine to be rated at a certain HP if they are NEVER run that high.  Snowblowers and tractors and such are designed to run at a fixed RPM or operating RPM.  THAT is the RPM the engines should be rated, real world conditions and RPM and NOT some fictitious off the scale RPM that is determined under laboratory conditions.  I'm really getting sick of these manufacturers selling the same engine yet rate it at numerous different HP ratings and prices.  I think Sears/Craftman is the worst of all, and I call that fraud at some level.   When I see walk-behind lawn mowers rated at something like 7 HP, it really makes you wonder how out of control it has gotten.  A doubt a single blade mower actually requires more than 3 HP to do the job.  They are always trying to find better ways to pull the wool over our eyes with their marketing and hype crap. 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that we are reliving decades ago, back when the automotive manufacturers were in the HP race between each other.  You are now seeing it in the OPE industry. 

This message was modified Feb 13, 2005 by Richie


Richie
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #36   Feb 13, 2005 6:04 pm
"I'm really getting sick of these manufacturers selling the same engine yet rate it at numerous different HP ratings and prices.  I think Sears/Craftman is the worst of all"

No doubt about this statement, they have been doing that for years. I'm waiting for their 8.9HP reel mower to arrive, you know, the kind with no engine.
TheKneebiter


Joined: Oct 22, 2004
Points: 233

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #37   Feb 13, 2005 7:04 pm
there was a class action against a well known compressor maker a year or so ago. this co. made craftsman compressors also. they were rating the compressors at peak hp not hp at there regular cycle. a friend of mine received a letter in the mail and was awarded a choice of 1 of 5 differents tools from this co. or a small cash refund. if enough people complain about the engines there will be a similar type thing i bet

Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #38   Feb 13, 2005 8:27 pm
TheKneebiter wrote:
there was a class action against a well known compressor maker a year or so ago. this co. made craftsman compressors also. they were rating the compressors at peak hp not hp at there regular cycle. a friend of mine received a letter in the mail and was awarded a choice of 1 of 5 differents tools from this co. or a small cash refund. if enough people complain about the engines there will be a similar type thing i bet

Well, I really don't require a dynamometer to tell me that none of the engines on my OPE are producing the rated HP at the factory set engine speed.  Those engine performance charts show that without question, no matter what brand engine you have.  Whether it be Briggs, Tecumseh, even Honda.  It amazes me they even have the "brass" to put it in writing for all to see.  If the manufacturers want to sell you a piece of OPE with a 9 HP sticker on it, it should be putting out the rated HP at the governed factory set RPM.  If they want to start selling them by the rated torque, do so as previously stated.

Richie
boblloyd


"Forty-two," said Deep Thought, with infinite majesty and calm.

Location: MA
Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Points: 424

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #39   Feb 13, 2005 9:45 pm
Richie,   You are quite right about actual horsepower in service being less than rated horsepower.  However, I believe all manufacturers test the same way in accordance with SAE J1940 (Small Engine Power and Torque Rating Procedure) so one should be able to compare motors fairly.  If anyone cheats on this they would expose themselves to a huge class action suit.    -Bob
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #40   Feb 13, 2005 10:59 pm
Hi there Bob,

Yes, you are correct and thank you for bringing that important point up.  Still, I consider it a despicable advertising practice.  Using this LawnBoy ad to make my point, and why I'm making such a big deal about all of this, the consumer believes they are buying a 6.5 hp lawnmower and paying good money for it.  If you take the time to read the fine print, well, it's as you pointed out.  From this ad, it appears LawnBoy plays on both sides of the fence.  On one side they are telling you you're getting a very potent walk-behind mower, yet they are stating in the fine print it's a farce.  I don't recall seeing this disclaimer on any of my higher hp OPE with a Tecumseh engine on it.  LawnBoy has a slight conscience.

.

.

.

Insight SeriesMSRP:
$339.00 - $459.00

Models:
Model 10683
Model 10684
Model 10685
Model 10686
Compare All Models
6.5 hp Easy Start Tecumseh® Engine*
Push, Variable Speed, and Sens-a-Speed™ Self-Propel System
21" Steel Deck
Compact Storage
Exclusive Features Designed to Fit You
Outstanding Ease of Use Features
3-n-1 System
2-Year Complete Coverage Warranty

* This engine was manufactured and laboratory rated by the Tecumseh Power Company at 6.5 gross horsepower in accordance with SAE J1940. As configured to meet safety, emission, and operating requirements, the actual horsepower on this class of lawn mower will be significantly lower.

This message was modified Feb 13, 2005 by Richie


Richie
Ben07


The more you know about something, the more you find there is to know.

Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Points: 178

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #41   Feb 14, 2005 12:39 am
Hi Richie

To quote you 

and why I'm making such a big deal about all of this, the consumer believes they are buying a (blankety blank)

I don't think you are making a big deal out of it at all. Your just investigating a complicated issue. 

Lot of stuff involved that is neither white or black.  It's gray.  Needs to be understood if your interested.  I think you would be quite surprised on the number of viewers following your issues.  Nice point on the Lawnboy post. 

I think you got lot of interest following along, and you will get counter points posted, lot of time they are just actually helping you get to the bottom of it,  (playing the devils advocate thing) I believe and I know you know the prev post on the testing standard was a devil's advocate help thing. 

Sure sometimes your gonna get some who may or may not know more on the subject,  or just are irritated and don't think it is important to get that deep into it.  They can voice their opinion, and then go out and buy a "Blankety Blank." because that is about how much they know about what they are actually buying.   Maybe close to nothing.

At least that's the way I'm lookin at it.

You go guy, don't have to knock yourself out, just stay steady, one piece at a time.

Appreciate your insight and investigation

Ben07

PS all the lawn boys from bout early 70's up to the newer 4 cycle (d-400, d-600, F series, Duraforce) were designed to work in the neighborhood 0f 2800 to 3100 rpm. When I say designed, I think they always tried to make their operating range close to the peak output,  (not 100 percent certain on the duraforce as never rebuilt one of them yet )  when they would exceed that they would say in their literature in the case of a three and 1/2 hp it would say 3.5+  (that plus thing started with the F series, and believe me it don't mean plus  a tenth of a hp,  they are strong running engines,  I'd bet they are closer to 5 )so if they take a 6.5 that has a rated  peak at say 3800 RPM then there would be less at the 3100,  which is exactly one of your points.  (and this is a little better area to make your point as there is no gearing involved, the blade speed is 1 for 1 with the rpm of the engine,  when your dealing with the Snow blower engines, the overall issue gets clouded by gearing involvement etc.  So it is easier for the manufacturer to do a spin on  what actually is happening.  Sorry if that's too deep for anyone.

This message was modified Feb 14, 2005 by Ben07


Ariens 8524LE, Toro CCR2000, Jacobsen S-B S-blowers, Generac 10hp Gen-convt. to N.G., 5 L-boys(D's F's &Dura( 74,77,80,88,00), Antiq. 1960 AYP 20 in. mag w 3.5 Tech mower. Ryan/Ryobi gas Trim. AYP 205 gas blwr. Mac c-saw,Toro E-blwr, 2 Weed-E e. stg. trims. outboards, boats, util trail, 2 Jeeps 
mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #42   Feb 14, 2005 3:15 am
Hi Guys-

Been mulling over the question of hp ratings for a few days as this thread has developed and wonder if we really want our engines turning at max hp (rpm) all the time. Certainly we don't use our auto engines at max hp when we are going 30mph.

If most of the time my blower will do a satisfactory job at 90% of it's rated hp. and then when I hit the EOD the governor kicks in and allows for the development of max hp I have no problem. Do we really want the wear associated with running at max hp. all the time?

The other issue of course is are we really being charged for something that is there anyway when we buy the higher hp. model of the same displacement?Auto engines of the same displacement with the same heads etc. have been rated at different hp. by changing the carb or ignition or "chip" or exhaust manifold or distributor as long as I can remember. You don't need me to explain to you it's a matter of marketing. But in a way we as consumers benefit.

I am looking to purchase a unit for my son and took a look at the Simplicity line. They offer two nice units built on the same 24 inch frame. One is a 9hp. and the other is a 10hp. The difference in MSRP is $200. I assume the two engines are the same displacement Briggs with different tuning . The more expensive unit offers as standard equiptment other features such as light, handwarmers etc. along with the "larger engine". My point is how much more would that unit cost if the engine was a completely different model? 

 The manufacturers I believe would limit the # of hp choices available because the cost of producing so many "different" models is not warranted by the size of the market . If they can't increase hp through tuning then we aren't going to have the number of choices we now enjoy. Would you want to have to choose between an 8hp and 13hp with nothing in the middle when you go to buy your next machine?

Someone PLEASE send some snow to Long Island,

Marc

SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
Richie


Bring On The White Stuff

Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
Points: 562

Re: Spit, Sputter, Cough,Blemph
Reply #43   Feb 14, 2005 7:51 am
mml4 wrote:
Hi Guys-

Been mulling over the question of hp ratings for a few days as this thread has developed and wonder if we really want our engines turning at max hp (rpm) all the time. Certainly we don't use our auto engines at max hp when we are going 30mph.

If most of the time my blower will do a satisfactory job at 90% of it's rated hp. and then when I hit the EOD the governor kicks in and allows for the development of max hp I have no problem. Do we really want the wear associated with running at max hp. all the time?

Hi Marc,

I found your comment very interesting.  I can tell you that I would never want my engine turning at the maximum RPM range required to achieve the HP rating of my engine, at least that fictious RPM manufacturers rate them at.  The fact is that our engines NEVER achieve it, not even close.  They are set to run at a much lower RPM, and governor or not, they will never even spike to the peak HP RPM. 

You made another interesting comment about the governor kicking in at the EOD.  I always assumed when I use my snowblower in very deep snow, such as what Long Island had not long ago, when I hear the engine under load, is when I figured the governor is doing the job it was designed for.  With that said, you have to remember that on my machine I have a tachometer.  While in use, I'm looking at it and I found that even with my governor reset to turn the no-load engine speed at 3,400 RPM's, under load, the engine will drop down to say, 2,900 RPM's, which is now very far below the engine rated HP.

What this means to me is that at 2,900 RPM's, this supposedly 8 HP engine is making something in the 6 HP range.   But if you look at torque, it was being held at 2,900 RPM, which is the peak torque range.  This is why recently I started putting more concern into the torque rating rather than the HP the engine is rated for.  The measure of horsepower depends on torque, the amount of real work that an engine is capable of producing.  Real work to me is EOD.  Without torque, how could these machines stay running when you hit the EOD?

Another point is that if you look carefully at the LawnBoy ad I posted above, you'll notice something in the fine print that I myself discovered when I installed an old style adjustable carburetor on my snowblower. 

"As configured to meet safety, emission, and operating requirements, the actual horsepower on this class of lawn mower will be significantly lower"

That statement gives credible proof that the emission carburetors rob important power from the engine, any OPE engine.  Yet, those engine performance charts do NOT reflect that fact.  What LawnBoy is telling you is that the rated 6.5 HP engine is significantly lower.  I haven't seen a single disclaimer on any of the engine performace charts stating that they reflect the very lean condtion caused by the emission carburetors.  Again, the consumer being taken advantage of.

Bottom line, purchase a snowblower or any other piece of OPE for the options you feel you want, NOT for the engine size.  I myself walked into the Toro dealer to purchase the 826 LE.  However, that model didn't have the power steering feature, which was most important to me, so I purchased the 828 LXE instead.  Add to the fact the carburetor modification I made, costing $74.00, gave me a far better running machine, still costing less than the 1028 LXE, and would run rings around it.  Fight back by getting the lower rated HP engine and let the manufacturers sit on the high end powered machines.  Help send the correct message back to them.

BTW Marc, I ordered some snow for us in the coming weeks



Richie
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