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coasteray


El Toro! 1028 LXE
Tecumseh 358cc
10hp


Location: NE Washington State
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Points: 142

LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Original Message   Dec 17, 2011 4:49 am
LCT and Loncin are getting their names out there.  Now Toro is going with Loncin.  Ariens has LCT on all three of their Sno-Tek blowers.  Husqvarna has the new revived LCT Snow King (Tecumseh "revival") on some of their blowers.  So who's best?  Will Briggs end up putting engines only on their own Simplicity, JD, Snapper models?

  El Toro! 1028 LXE - Tecumseh 358cc 10hp   Let it snow! Let it snow! Let it snow!
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FrankMA


Location: Merrimack Valley/Northeastern Mass
Joined: Jul 1, 2010
Points: 587

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #18   Dec 19, 2011 8:58 pm
I think the reality of what's ahead is Chinese engines as well as many other products are here to stay for quite some time - like it or not. There's a billion person workforce with little to no environmental regulation, no OSHA type enforcement of health and safety for the workers, little copyright or trademark enforcement, etc, etc,..... the list goes on and on and on! The only way these Chinese companies are going to survive (for the long term) is if they produce a quality product, make a good name for themselves, respect their workers and stand behind the product they produce. At some point they will need to gain the respect of the western countries who are purchasing their goods and provide some modicum of environmental concern, worker health and safety and conformity to the copyright and tradmark laws that exist in the "real" world.
This message was modified Dec 19, 2011 by FrankMA


Toro Wheel Horse 522xi GT, Honda HS928TA, Honda HS621AS, Honda HS520A, Toro CCR3000 (work in progress), Honda HS624WA (sold 08/23/2010), Stihl BR550 Backpack Blower, Stihl MS250, McCulloch MS1635, Honda EM6500SX Generator
Steve_Cebu


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #19   Dec 19, 2011 10:14 pm
FrankMA wrote:
I think the reality of what's ahead is Chinese engines as well as many other products are here to stay for quite some time - like it or not. There's a billion person workforce with little to no environmental regulation, no OSHA type enforcement of health and safety for the workers, little copyright or trademark enforcement, etc, etc,..... the list goes on and on and on! The only way these Chinese companies are going to survive (for the long term) is if they produce a quality product, make a good name for themselves, respect their workers and stand behind the product they produce. At some point they will need to gain the respect of the western countries who are purchasing their goods and provide some modicum of environmental concern, worker health and safety and conformity to the copyright and tradmark laws that exist in the "real" world.



That is all true Frank, but the Chinese do not operate that way. Their current workers want more pay more benefits etc...

So the Chinese Gov't is moving work further inland where there currently is little to no work available. So more cheap labor.

They are having to build new roads and infrastructure but they are ok with that. They will keep finding new workers further and further from the coast until the cost of shipping wipes out the difference in pay.

Quality is trivial they want "good enough" products, cut corners anyway they can and maximize profits. They make copies of copies of copies of originals.

Branded Nike shoes sold in the Philippines as genuine are copies from China but they have the original's price for example.

"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England."  "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
borat


Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #20   Dec 20, 2011 10:32 am
Can't entirely agree with Steve.

Their quality cutting in pursuit of more profits might happen with unauthorized pirating of various products.  However, when a company such as Ariens for instance, contracts Chinese to supply engines, I'd be confident that Ariens did their homework.  I would have to assume that they laid out their contractual agreement to ensure a certain level of quality, dependability and durability is met.  I would also assume that Ariens likely test engines on a regular basis as part of their own quality control program.  After all, supplying lemon engines on an otherwise quality machine would not make very good business sense now would it?
Steve_Cebu


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #21   Dec 20, 2011 5:38 pm
You are still going to see batches of QC issues, manufacturing I know quite well. I read a fair amount about what is going on in China and the problems they have.

Ariens has their own QC dept you can be 100% certain of that. Most companies do. The thing is you can't test every engine. You test it in lots like every 1,000 engines or whatever number they feel is appropriate.

As the old saying goes "Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip."

Now when a company finds a bad product on a teardown they will stop and start checking a huge amount of product until they get to both ends. The defective batches are more frequent than people realize.

Many companies catch it and it's good, but cutting corners is SOP in China and goes on daily.

This isn't just Ariens or Loncin or just snowblowers this is almost everything they produce. I've seen a lot of screwups in our own shop and I know how we fix things. Or rather did since the plant will be shutdown for good in a few days.

"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England."  "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
borat


Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #22   Dec 20, 2011 7:17 pm
Maybe so Steve but generally speaking, from what I've read (and experienced), the consensus regarding Chinese engines has been pretty much positive.  There are also certain Chinese companies who have improved their products to get a leg up on their competitors.  LCT, Champion, Loncin and Kippor seem to be building a good reputation in the Americas.   And let's not forget that you can buy a 6 h.p. Chonda for as little as $99.00.   For that kind of money, a five year engine life wouldn't be all that bad.

Another thing I want to add is that back in the late 70's the North America auto industry did some serious cost cutting to improve the bottom line.  The result was some of the worst automobiles ever to fall apart on our highways.   So the Chinese aren't alone when it comes to compromising quality.  If it weren't for the Japanese,  our auto manufacturers would still be pumping out junk.
This message was modified Dec 20, 2011 by borat
Steve_Cebu


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #23   Dec 21, 2011 12:34 am
Oh you can be certain cost cutting goes on all the time in every country.

McDonalds knows eaxctly how much ketchup csts and how much to put on each burger saving a ton of money every year.

American manufacturing went south a while back. My soon to be former employer used a lot of vendors and we got junk it that was just so messed up it was amazing they had the guts to ship it to us!

I could recount enless stories (all true) about the BS that is pulled every single day, but I won't.

China cuts corners whereever and whenever they can. This sadly is true across the board in manufacturing in the US as well as other countries.

Maybe someday Loncin will be up there but right now it's up and coming and still doesn't have a long enough track record.

"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England."  "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
borat


Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #24   Dec 21, 2011 9:31 am
I agree with pretty much everything you say Steve.  All of the Chinese brands need a lot more time in the field to qualify their overall quality. 

From what I've read, the most notable failure in Chinese engines was the quality of the fasteners used in critical applications.  Many of the bolts and screws in the earlier engines were made of very soft steel which would loosen off easily and break when tightened.  Replacing the weak fasteners (head bolts for instance) was one way to improve the engine's reliability.   Other than that, I've not heard of any other serious quality issues and I've not heard much lately of poor fasteners either.  I know the two Chonda engines I have seem to be very nice units.  Visually, they look very nicely built.  Clean castings, nice fit and finish.  the paint is even nice. 
Steve_Cebu


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #25   Dec 21, 2011 10:42 am
I know you are the expert when it comes to engines and the nuts and bolts of snowblowers.

I'm just concerned about quality over time with these companies. It's good to know that some of them are doing a good job.

"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England."  "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
GtWtNorth


https://t.me/pump_upp

Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Joined: Nov 16, 2008
Points: 264

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #26   Dec 21, 2011 11:59 am
borat wrote:
  And let's not forget that you can buy a 6 h.p. Chonda for as little as $99.00.   For that kind of money, a five year engine life wouldn't be all that bad.

I can't comment on longevity because I don't  have any experience with Chinese engines.

Many years ago, and maybe still for some small private shops now, quality meant that the products you produced would last for a long time (maybe generations), it was/is a point of pride for the craftsman. Now the words "planned obsolescence" are more the norm. Hence Borat's comment. Is it better to buy something cheap that will last a couple of years, then replace it when it breaks, and over & over? Big business sure thinks so, but I'm not so sure, since it will always break when you most need it & it's most inconvenient.
I worked in the purchasing department of a very large multinational for 25 years so I know what the word Quality means to them, and it's not the same thing it means to most of us. For them, the term "quality" means you build it to customer specs, no more and less if you can get away with it, and that goes for any big corporation anywhere. They all report to the shareholders, and shareholders want only one thing, PROFIT, at any cost. I once had a VP tell me that our shareholders were the most important thing to our company!!! "What about the  customers?" I asked. "not as important as the shareholders!" he replied.

Don't blame the Chinese, their shareholders only want their piece of the pie!

Occupy Wall Street was right, it's time the 99% stood up and demanded some of the pie!

https://t.me/pump_upp
Dr_Woof


Don't blow into the wind, and don't eat yellow snow. WOOF!

Location: Saskatchewan
Joined: Dec 13, 2010
Points: 253

Re: LCT vs. Loncin: who's best?
Reply #27   Dec 21, 2011 12:10 pm
I'll start buying chinese engines when they show me a detailed parts list and a guarantee that parts will be available for, say, 20 years.  I've got an old Isuzu Trooper that is in quite good condition, but it had to sit idle for lack of an unavailable (from both manufacturer and after market sources) emergency brake cable that I eventually rounded up at a junk yard.  Needed some reconditioning, but works OK now.

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